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#366232 - 10/24/07 07:40 PM Re: Sorry Russell Sir- I had to copy this link [Re: underdog]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I have seen experienced grapplers dig an elbow into Sp 11 to break a guard in the context of doing their other good stuff. Maybe it isn't a question of all or nothing. Maybe it is that pressure points assist what are otherwise good techniques and make them better. I would not say use pressure points in isolation without regard to good martial arts techniques.






That is a good technique. I have used it myself, I was taught to use it to break someone's guard.

Breaking someone's guard by making them uncomfortable is far from ending the situation. When they have you in a submission or a choke it's a different situation. If you make them uncomfortable, they will simply choke you out, break, or dislocate something. Much worse than a pressure point that "hurt's like hell".

Quote:

I'd suggest instead to take a look at some technques that are working well and maybe some that seem to need a little something, and see if pressure point applications improve them.





Absolutely, they do.

Quote:

If not, fine. The forum is about being open minded and learning from each other and sharing ideas. You take what you can use and leave the rest. It is not necessary to agree. Just disagree respectfully. Otherwise, the forum has a hostile tenor and it is difficult for people to feel comfortable about posting questions for fear that more knowledgeable people will ridicule them.






I don't think anyone here has crossed boundaries beyond just disagreeing. There should not be hostility or fear in any of this.
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#366233 - 10/25/07 11:51 AM Re: Sorry Russell Sir- I had to copy this link [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

That is a good technique. I have used it myself, I was taught to use it to break someone's guard.

Breaking someone's guard by making them uncomfortable is far from ending the situation. When they have you in a submission or a choke it's a different situation. If you make them uncomfortable, they will simply choke you out, break, or dislocate something. Much worse than a pressure point that "hurt's like hell".




Well put, Brian. Exactly what I was talking about.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#366234 - 10/25/07 05:11 PM Re: Sorry Russell Sir- I had to copy this link [Re: MattJ]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
In those situations, like being on the receiving end of a choke, I use my other martial arts techniques with or without pressure points depending on what I'm going to do.

I would agree that digging your finger into someone's LI 10 point is not going to force them not to choke you out. That would be a lame technque. However, while I'm doing the other stuff that I have been taught in my martial arts style to get out of that hold, if there is a grabbing of the arm involved, and if that grabbing is near a pressure point, and if that pressure point is vulnerable to grabs when the arm is in the position and tension that it is, then why not grab on the pressure point?

Pressure points don't mean stop doing good martial arts. Pressure points is not a style. Pressure points isn't even a complete technque. Presure points are a set of vulnerabilities in the body for which attacks can be cultivated and incorporated into any martial arts style, including BJJ.

I will agree now that posting the clip was a bad idea. It was very amusing to PP practitioners, however that is a limited audience here, and it misleads everyone else. The defender using the PP in the clip used nothing else but the pressure point or as little martial arts as he could and make the clip, while the uke defending %100 obviously was not, in any world where defending yourself means to do something. He was only resisting the pain for as long as he could. A person with no martial arts training would at least attack the arm that was hurting him/her.

I saw it in a different context. That is OK. It wasn't worth it to post it. Now I am that much the wiser and I'm ready to move on.

My humble apology.
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#366235 - 10/25/07 09:22 PM Re: Sorry Russell Sir- I had to copy this link [Re: underdog]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

In those situations, like being on the receiving end of a choke, I use my other martial arts techniques with or without pressure points depending on what I'm going to do.






HUH? I never like to be on the receiving end of a good choke. You only have about three seconds to do something, so you better hurry!!

Quote:

I would agree that digging your finger into someone's LI 10 point is not going to force them not to choke you out. That would be a lame technque. However, while I'm doing the other stuff that I have been taught in my martial arts style to get out of that hold, if there is a grabbing of the arm involved, and if that grabbing is near a pressure point, and if that pressure point is vulnerable to grabs when the arm is in the position and tension that it is, then why not grab on the pressure point?





I agree. Anytime you have to grab or hit you should be aiming for some point atleast.

Quote:

Pressure points don't mean stop doing good martial arts. Pressure points is not a style. Pressure points isn't even a complete technque. Presure points are a set of vulnerabilities in the body for which attacks can be cultivated and incorporated into any martial arts style, including BJJ.





Ok. Is this a disclaimer? I do hope most people already realize this.

Quote:

I will agree now that posting the clip was a bad idea. It was very amusing to PP practitioners, however that is a limited audience here, and it misleads everyone else. The defender using the PP in the clip used nothing else but the pressure point or as little martial arts as he could and make the clip, while the uke defending %100 obviously was not, in any world where defending yourself means to do something. He was only resisting the pain for as long as he could. A person with no martial arts training would at least attack the arm that was hurting him/her.






Why was it a bad idea? Do we always have to agree and pat eachother on the back?

Maybe we should state what our opinion of a clip is when we post it. that way we will all be able to agree on it and no one will suffer anxiety.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#366236 - 10/25/07 10:11 PM Re: Sorry Russell Sir- I had to copy this link [Re: BrianS]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
No problem. I don't care if you disagree or don't like the clip or anything else. I certainly don't need your pat on the back. The effort to post something interesting just bombed unexpectedly. I need to know how to figure out what people will like and I just don't have the knack. In the grand scheme of things, a small problem. THe solution, stop posting clips.

Have to watch my Red Sox beat the Rockies.
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The older I get, the better I was!

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#366237 - 10/25/07 10:36 PM Re: Sorry Russell Sir- I had to copy this link [Re: underdog]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by underdog -

Quote:

while the uke defending %100




But this is my point of contention. That guy was NOT defending 100% like a trained grappler would. If they are going to present a clip of pressure points working in a grappling situation, then they should be prepared to see it work against the resistance of a trained grappler.

Some PP enthusiast would see that clip and think, "Oh the grappler will lay there and not resist". But that's not what's going to happen, even against a white belt in BJJ.

Again, those points can work, and they can hurt. But even a fairly new BJJ guy is going to resist much more than what that clip shows. Misleading, IMHO.

I do not feel that my disagreement is disrespectful - it is merely disagreement.

Quote:

THe solution, stop posting clips.




No debate allowed? Odd policy for a forum.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#366238 - 10/25/07 11:06 PM Re: Sorry Russell Sir- I had to copy this link [Re: underdog]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

No problem. I don't care if you disagree or don't like the clip or anything else. I certainly don't need your pat on the back. The effort to post something interesting just bombed unexpectedly. I need to know how to figure out what people will like and I just don't have the knack. In the grand scheme of things, a small problem. THe solution, stop posting clips.

Have to watch my Red Sox beat the Rockies.




Whatever.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#366239 - 10/26/07 07:22 AM Re: Sorry Russell Sir- I had to copy this link [Re: BrianS]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I agree that the clip did not demonstrate GRAPPLING. It could have been labeled as something else and there would not have been a problem. Had it been posted as a suggestion for some useful points in grappling or had the point location and demonstration been followed by a take in the context of actual grappling, then you probably would not have found the clip so limited as a teaching tool.

Pass the bottle. I learned something that maybe might make me a better mod between your comments here and your other post with Theo's clips. I think I got it.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#366240 - 10/31/07 05:14 PM Re: Sorry Russell Sir- I had to copy this link [Re: underdog]
Russell_Stutely Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 22
Hi matt

You say a white belt BJJ would do better?? John beat loads of BJJ Grapplers in winning his titles.

When John was doing his stuff with me, i was resisting and trying to fight back, but my efforts were negated. Once locked up and essentialy "fight over by tapping" I of course ceased to resist as John was no longer attacking.

Johnwas going slower and with less power as he is a MUCH better grappler than i am.

Ken, who was on one of the clips, is a VERY accomplished grappler with many competitions and a cage fight under his belt even at close to 50 years old.. fighting guys half his age and more weight.

Russell
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Russell Stutely www.russellstutely.com

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#366241 - 10/31/07 05:52 PM Re: Sorry Russell Sir- I had to copy this link [Re: Russell_Stutely]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Fair enough, Russell. Didn't look like it from the videos, IMHO. But hard to tell sometimes on the net.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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