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#366037 - 11/03/07 08:52 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I will say that to some hip hop and karate are their way of life. And I will also say that both share commonalities in the way that they have both sold out too many times for the almighty dollar. In addition, it seems that what the media puts out there as representations of both is a severe misrepresentation of what they can and should be.
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#366038 - 11/03/07 10:39 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I must say I have no idea what hip-hop is, nor did I have run ins with bullies as a kid, much less worry spending time talking negatively about anyone or anything.

If I don't care for something I'm not going to spend time railing on it, especially when I want someone who really wants to do it to so much do it. I'd rather have them training in a way I don't prefer, truly.

Some how true confessions (if they are true) and working to run down people and styles is irrelevant to karate.

Of course that is an Okinawan obsession for they seem to be very cagey in their comments about others too.

If anything Bryan has given me reason to take a much closer look at the material I've gathered on the Seito system. BTW interesting how I find touches of Kise's seisan in today's review of Oyata's seisan and Odo's seisan too. Just an observation.
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#366039 - 11/03/07 10:40 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

The only qualms I have are that Rock-n-Roll has not died yet, everyone wants to have stupid people with false confidence lead them, that people believe that God is a man or that they can even comprehend what God is, that most fools don't have a clue as to what real Hip Hop culture OR karate is and that even most professionals are very mediocre.




I didn't know you were a theologian too! If you want to take the same position as St.Thomas in his commentary on Boethius' De Sancta Trinitate regarding Tamquam ignotum thats fine, just not on the forum. Religious discussion is prohibited.

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#366040 - 11/04/07 07:07 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: oldman]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Rock N Roll dying? No one can destroy the metal!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_KFAE8tXF8

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#366041 - 11/04/07 12:30 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude:
Are you asking me to detail the applications in Passai Sho? That can't be done with any real clarity on the web. Just know you can watch a person perform kata and glean a lot about that person. After the kata becomes automatic, without much thought invloved (reflexive), the "umuiri" will be present in their execution. You will know that there is something special about how they have been trained and currently train.

You can watch 10 JKA Shotokan-ka and they all do the kata exactly the same way. Regardless of whether or not the principles make biomechanical and practical sense, the students, mudansha and yudansha, tend to mimic versus adapt to their bodies and minds. "Embusen begins here, and ends here, in this same exact spot". Ridiculous and not how true Okinawan Karate kata are trained. That in itself will dilute a form significantly.

The same can be said for someone, no matter the amount of diligence involved, who does Matsumura Seito with the intent of copying their sensei. It's really not their fault. Even a very accomplished yudansha may not be the best teacher. You will see the frame minus the subtleties.

I mentioned several factors, minor or unrecognizable to most, yet you want to ask me about shoulder throws and the such? Hand placement, arm angle, knee bend, foot alignment, distance of stances, punching form, etc. need to be trained to the "T". Proper kata is the MOST important aspect of real karate training. PERIOD.

Kata is not only about fighting. It is much, much more. If you use kata for bunkai, then you are missing the point, and in fact forms training done in this manner is the norm nowadays, and is faulty. Hence, my propensity to lump all the karate people I encounter online together. Some is better than others and most is Hope Ryu, in mine and others opinions. Call me a "troll", but it's just the truth. Don't cry dry your eye, and look for something that is "REALER"!!!

You want to understand why I say what I say about all these vids I see here? Just know that even a well-trained Seito guy who is a mod on this site has heard the same things from me via PM. He asked me what I thought of his form and I told him. I don't think that he trains in the same manner as I did/do so he didn't quite understand what I was talking about, instead stating he was doing "Honto Kata". Okay. Whatever. If his kata looks like that in anyway it is/ he is missing sooooo much. I could add even more "o's", but I won't.

Ed has also asked me to evaluate his kata (vid) in the past. I did. He too didn't understand what I was trying to relay to him. Everyone wants to be validated. Your experiential base has to be wider. The net doesn't allow me to show you why anatomically, physics included, that back leg should never be straightened.

You know I don't really care what anyone thinks about my forms because I train in them with true, original intent. I don't need anyone's opinion about them on here, because you guys don't really have a clue anyway.






Hi Bryan.

Ok so instead of all this name calling and mud slinging what about the katas you guys analised in the past are gone over again?

Poss bring the thread back up?

Hasnt it been said that kata should trained looked at then trained again?

Just a suggestion and and it might be more informative than all this "he said this" and "he said that" that seems to be going on.

Jude.

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#366042 - 11/05/07 02:15 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I jsut saw this from another discussion group, youtube has the Kise Seisan that was floating around the nets several years ago. If you search for Kise Seisan Kata on YouTube you can see what was being discussed back on page 7 of this discussion.
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#366043 - 11/05/07 03:41 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Victor Smith]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Victor,
Nice find. If you look at the posters other video selections Ron Lindsey's HakuCho Dai is on there also. It's pretty amazing. In one collection you find two of the three people in the world that do real karate.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tjimande

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#366044 - 11/05/07 03:47 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: oldman]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I am quite confused about this. Hopefully, some clarification will be forthcoming from others with experience.

Quote:

Victor,
Nice find. If you look at the posters other video selections Ron Lindsey's HakuCho Dai is on there also. It's pretty amazing. In one collection you find two of the three people in the world that do real karate.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tjimande



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#366045 - 11/05/07 03:52 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I have heard a lot of great things about this man from many Matsumura Seito types. However, going off this video alone

http://youtube.com/watch?v=naCud4qstac

I am thoroughly disappointed. I HOPE this is a simple demonstration of sequence and general techniques of this kata, because it seems poorly executed buy a below average karateka. If this is Hohan Soken's best student then it appears to lack the depth that the karate I know has. I know Mr. Cyr has an opinion. I would like to hear what he has to say about Kise's kata.
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#366046 - 11/05/07 07:40 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Med,

I think its safe to say that Kise Sensei's performance is perhaps the standard for most Okinawan seniors, more a walk through than a high level performance.

I've met Kise Sensei several times and I doubt that performance is much more than that, just a shell performance.

I've learned to look beyond what is shown, in a positive light, for many times many other Senior's kata performances fit the same bill.

The most obvious exceptions are Hiagonna Morio, a few others and especially the Okinawan Uechin Seniors. All of whom seem to be speaking to me, here's my best stuff, now bring it on.

Just an observation, but I find Kise's performance interesting in the Seisan-ness involved.

More pertinate I've seen all the books credit Seisan as a Soken Sensei kata, but I've also seen Seito discussion about how Seisan was not one of Soken's kata.

If you're talking about the Okinawan arts and want to find simple answers you're likely on the wrong planet.


Edited by Victor Smith (11/05/07 07:42 PM)
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