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#366027 - 10/31/07 06:38 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Barad]
jude33 Offline

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539

Jude, You are correct, Kissaki (Vince Morris's organisation) tends not to work/practice against the old Shotokan oizuki attack much except maybe at a basic level because it is an unlikely attack and it is relatively slow compared to closer attacks even when done by the quickest. Hooks, grabs and hooks, short range straight punches and headbutts and some locks are the usual things defended against.


personly I think the old /basic methods were practiced for many reasons. E.G

Basic punch block kick conditioning etc while at the same time
practicing some of the mechanics of basic joint locks found in chin na.

Seems to be a lot of common body mechanics.


#366028 - 10/31/07 06:44 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 604
Loc: London, UK
Oizuki might be an overly rigid or stylised structure, but it does capture the essence of a real attack i.e. it is totally commited and uses the full body weight. I think it is a perfectly good tool against which to develop the basics of dealing with a real strike.
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

#366029 - 10/31/07 07:02 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539

Oizuki might be an overly rigid or stylised structure, but it does capture the essence of a real attack i.e. it is totally commited and uses the full body weight. I think it is a perfectly good tool against which to develop the basics of dealing with a real strike.

I can see that but after basics more techiques might be practiced against such as barad said. This doesnt in some cases happen.


#366030 - 10/31/07 09:00 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 604
Loc: London, UK
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

#366031 - 11/03/07 12:44 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Are you asking me to detail the applications in Passai Sho? That can't be done with any real clarity on the web. Just know you can watch a person perform kata and glean a lot about that person. After the kata becomes automatic, without much thought invloved (reflexive), the "umuiri" will be present in their execution. You will know that there is something special about how they have been trained and currently train.

You can watch 10 JKA Shotokan-ka and they all do the kata exactly the same way. Regardless of whether or not the principles make biomechanical and practical sense, the students, mudansha and yudansha, tend to mimic versus adapt to their bodies and minds. "Embusen begins here, and ends here, in this same exact spot". Ridiculous and not how true Okinawan Karate kata are trained. That in itself will dilute a form significantly.

The same can be said for someone, no matter the amount of diligence involved, who does Matsumura Seito with the intent of copying their sensei. It's really not their fault. Even a very accomplished yudansha may not be the best teacher. You will see the frame minus the subtleties.

I mentioned several factors, minor or unrecognizable to most, yet you want to ask me about shoulder throws and the such? Hand placement, arm angle, knee bend, foot alignment, distance of stances, punching form, etc. need to be trained to the "T". Proper kata is the MOST important aspect of real karate training. PERIOD.

Kata is not only about fighting. It is much, much more. If you use kata for bunkai, then you are missing the point, and in fact forms training done in this manner is the norm nowadays, and is faulty. Hence, my propensity to lump all the karate people I encounter online together. Some is better than others and most is Hope Ryu, in mine and others opinions. Call me a "troll", but it's just the truth. Don't cry dry your eye, and look for something that is "REALER"!!!

You want to understand why I say what I say about all these vids I see here? Just know that even a well-trained Seito guy who is a mod on this site has heard the same things from me via PM. He asked me what I thought of his form and I told him. I don't think that he trains in the same manner as I did/do so he didn't quite understand what I was talking about, instead stating he was doing "Honto Kata". Okay. Whatever. If his kata looks like that in anyway it is/ he is missing sooooo much. I could add even more "o's", but I won't.

Ed has also asked me to evaluate his kata (vid) in the past. I did. He too didn't understand what I was trying to relay to him. Everyone wants to be validated. Your experiential base has to be wider. The net doesn't allow me to show you why anatomically, physics included, that back leg should never be straightened.

You know I don't really care what anyone thinks about my forms because I train in them with true, original intent. I don't need anyone's opinion about them on here, because you guys don't really have a clue anyway.

This type of attitude creates rifts. I know this, but I can only tell it like it is. You butter each others buns. I'm here to make you think and rethink. So when someone like BrianS who hates me because I joked him about his "-ectomy", BTW I am happy that you are well, dismisses all I say because he thinks I'm a troll, I just laugh because the bigger picture (real karate) is being overlooked. Your loss bro, not mine.

Anyway Ed didn't "get" my critique. So now you guys can "blahbbady-blah-blah" about hope or whatever training you do. If you get good results and answers that have been empirically tested in chaos then what you're doing is right. You're still seeking. Good. Hope you get as lucky as I did. It took me 14 years of searching.

All of you do know that the real karate types NEVER, EVER get on these sites?! Those supposed "Masters" that do are not thought of very highly by the real stylists. You should thank me everytime I give any comment, because although they won't tell you, the real Okinawan Karate guys think EXACTLY like me. They just won't express it. It's a waste of their time. You guys are a waste of their time.

I agree, it usually is, but I still feel that some of you deserve an inkling of a hint. I want karate to be respected, so I make everyone reevaluate and hopefully it will cause some to adapt and make their karate "real".

Still, my "diagnoses" (whatever Ed or others who like to talk out their arses would say) compels me to tell you guys the hardliner's perspective. The only time I ever come back to this place is when someone "beckons" me with some ignorant statement, or invokes my name by asking me a question.

I am not a liar, and am not operating under multiple guises for the helluv'it. I changed my name initially, because the site crashed multiple times and when it came back up didn't recognize me. Then BrianS and Kogie and others got their panties in a twist because they were losing arguments so they used their power and influence to ban me.

This site suffers without someone like me on here. It is so boooooooring. There are very few nonpatent answers, and all the diplomacy is fruitless for valid discourse.

That's all. BTW Oldman, I use to hand kids their asses in their backbacks. After the age of 7 I never lost a fight being a military brat, I didn't worry about a place at the lunch table and in fact often "ate the school bully's lunches". What being a brat did teach me was that most people are average and you shouldn't expect that much from them. They just have such limited capacity. I am well educated, of sound body and mind, have the BEST job ever, am rich, have a beautiful, intelligent wife, wonderful family and friends and am very, very happy. The only qualms I have are that Rock-n-Roll has not died yet, everyone wants to have stupid people with false confidence lead them, that people believe that God is a man or that they can even comprehend what God is, that most fools don't have a clue as to what real Hip Hop culture OR karate is and that even most professionals are very mediocre.

If you guys only knew the real Bryan, but you never will... Oh well.

BTW you want bunkai? Do the forms right first. Otherwise, whatever bunkai you make up is valid, I (or should I say "you") guess...
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

#366032 - 11/03/07 01:09 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Judes thoughts and suggestions only if you accept them.
Man your a good guy when you want to be but please, please, please lighten up?
How about from now on we dispense with the who did what routine?
Stop winding people up one here ? Or at least keep it within reason
You make good sense when you want to.
Train off your aggression before you come on here
And yes it could be boring when your not here but it is also
not boring when you post on here but stop the hell fire stuff.
And try not to give me that cr8p your not bothered if you get banned.
Its 5.15 am here and Im off to work soon. I will read what you wrote above in more detail later.


Edited by jude33 (11/03/07 01:19 AM)

#366033 - 11/03/07 01:18 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
oh you mean this evaluation, Bryan... from 2 years ago video, on a basics kata and only 1 year of Matsubayashi?


soopascience writes:

Regarding Fugyugata San: I thought your performance of it looked solid. It's what I remeber from my days in Matsubayashi. Our posture in Shorinkan and Matsumura Orthodox tends to be a little more centered. Nagamine's style of Matsubayashi doesn't include a Fugyugata San; you must practice Ueshiro's subsystem. Your transitions were quick, but at times you tend to not be rooted when punching, meaning your back heal is often off the ground slightly. Some of your punches were slightly extended, in other words it looked in that video like you were reaching at times. All that stuff beyond your centerline leaves you off-balance to the front; not good versus a grappler. Your stances were slightly unnatural, they looked a little long. Your upper block was at too flat an angle to deflect a technique.

I thought your crispness and speed were good. You didn't rush things too much and you sat down on most of your techs with the exception of what I mentioned previously. Your front kicks were high, but that's okay depending upon the form and the system. I think everything looked pretty good, but it kind of reinforced my impression of Matusbayashi as a true Shorin system. I think it looks quite a bit different from the more Shuri Te influenced Shorin Ryuha. I can definitely see the Tomari influence in it (and in other styles like Seibukan and Shorinji Ryu) especially with the long stances and high chamber which seems very awkward and unnatural. Even chambering effects ones balance. Relaxation will come with doing the forms more and more. It actually looked a lot like Shito or Shotokan to me, especially with the straight stepping versus recentering steps.

Hope I wasn't too harsh. They're just opinions.

Added on Jul. 26 2006

from here:

I'll give you the long stances (thats how the place taught it, and it felt un-natural), but the straight leg? where did you see that? The only reason I didn't take your advice to heart is because shortly after that video was taken, I no longer trained Shorin.

plus, without YOU having a video up, how do I know you aren't just a theorizing, 400lb armchair judge that has seen alot of youtube? why would I hang on your every bodiless word of critique? I asked a bunch of people at the time to take a peek, and you happened to be in happy-mode, so I asked you too....hardly anything to get all self-important about.

fact is, you can say all you want, but thats all it is: words with no substance. you've helped with introducing terms and pinted towards areas of interest...but beyond that, you are just another anonymous voice in the crowd saying "I know the right way".

#366034 - 11/03/07 01:25 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Judes thoughts and suggestions only if you accept them

Here is a chance to answer with out going nuts???
So if you have posted a reply and gone nuts here is your chance to edit it???



Edited by jude33 (11/03/07 01:26 AM)

#366035 - 11/03/07 01:55 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Once again, sound and fury, signifying nothing, sharing even less.

Talk about boring.

#366036 - 11/03/07 06:39 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA

that most fools don't have a clue as to what real Hip Hop culture OR karate is and that even most professionals are very mediocre.


Bryan, I feel like we know each other from all the time we have had here on the site. So I can say, earnestly and without malice, that you are a giant cock. I hope you don't get kicked off the site, because........uh..........hold on, it's coming to me..........


"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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