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#365977 - 10/18/07 06:44 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hey Med,

erm ok then,

I guess until we see some video from you we shall have to imagine
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#365978 - 10/18/07 08:42 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Victor, Med,

how can the first 2 videos be described as anything other than bad habit forming? to explain away the video as misunderstood sounds very much like appologetics as oppossed to critical commentary. nothing much to misunderstand really - people just don't attack/respond with rigidity like that, therefore the method has little usefulness for any long-term consideration. it's not about getting beaten-up during training, it's about training with gradually introducing non-compliance. in the video, I just didn't see how that method facilitates that goal....but then, maybe that ISN'T their goal. if thats the case, then there really isn't much to talk about.


also, would you agree that if someone were to ONLY train similar to the drills shown for decades, that it would bring them no closer to understanding how things work when things get 'messy'?

Victor, I also don't like the term 'bunkai'. since it conjures up impressions of 'if they do this, then I do that' rigidity. but I can't think of another single term that means: "interactively applying 2-person principles which are extracted from kata".


lastly, and this is a worn-out disclaimer since it should go without saying by now, but maybe not... we only have the video itself as a point of discussion, opinions do NOT translate to: "if the video is bad then by implication the practitioners and/or their forms/styles are worthless."

it doesn't mean that at all. evaluation of the video is an evaluation of the video in and of itself. thought that would be clear by now, but arguments always seem to be extended beyond whats shown, so the disclaimer needs to be mentioned every single tireless time it seems.

If I wanted to take the position of second-guessing beyond whats shown in the video, that would be easy. I could simply suppose the people putting the video up wanted to hide their secrets, so they purposely produced a deceptively subpar drill.

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#365979 - 10/19/07 12:48 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, if one only worked this drill they would develop skill in working this drill. Now, the way I was taught to develop this drill into a fighting skill building exercise is quite a different matter.
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#365980 - 10/19/07 08:01 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

I guess I continue to see things a little differently. The 'patsai bunkai' drill is not one I would see as being used for decades. Perhaps part of the reason I really refuse to belive there is much Chinese influence in karate is that many chinese systems use tools and then discard them for more advanced tools when the student is ready to move on. For example beginning forms are discarded for more advanced forms and work on them does not continue because all of the basics they used are in the advanced forms so you don't need them. (of course nothing completely describes chinese systems)

I see the 'patsai bunkai' as a tool, to be used and then moved beyond. From what little I understand there does not seem to have been a formal course of kata technique application study in the Okinawan arts, so I would not assume what that school uses the 'tool' shown for, but I see it as a useful tool in a stage of a students development, to be replaced when the requisite skill level is developed.

There is no reason to assume it should be used for life.

Of course this contradicts many Okinawan systems that are locked into using the same tools. Randomly I'd suggest Goju's Kakie (spelling alas) drills+ as an example. If you compare it to Tai Chi's single push hands, there are further layers, double push hands, moving push hands, double push hands with extension, ta lu, san shou and more layers beyond.

If your assumption is this is all they train you might be correct, but I just see the tool, it place where I would put it in training and make no further extensions about it.

I always find it interesting how quick so many are to judge something without accepting that lack of understanding the context may be a big mistake. And I believe making bad assumptions is a quick way to end up on the bottom every time.

Geoff Gleason, the English Psychologist and Judo player suggested the best answer is to assume others are always better and more capable so you don't overassume and allow that to be in turn used against you.

I believe that is appropriate about others training. In my experience most good programs are decades of study with many layers.

BTW I understand patsai a bit. It would be interesting to spend a few years with you working on the drill shown and seeing if I could in the end make you see what I see. As I said I've had instructors using similar drilling in various systems and see where it leads in their scheme of training. Because of that I look at the performer's focus and transition and not the attack which I just see as lines of attack for the performer's focus choices. Just a tool that it appears I appreciate differently than your training has shown you.

It's what makes life interesting.

As of 'bunkai' I find it more consistent to verbally shape that experience several ways. First as kata technique application potential, the study of which is a building tool to underlying principles how a technique might be used. The accompanying term would be kata technique application realized, when you get to the point of somebody sticks something out in your direction, you break it off, or whatever the appropriate response is, no longer potential but a fully realized tool at your command.

I belive it is a much cleaner way of understanding the dozens of potentials in any technique, and if one's training makes it work its not potential, it's slam dunk.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#365981 - 10/19/07 11:24 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Bricks don't hit back. That's true, but one has to be an idiot (or deserve to be one) to just hit bricks and do nothing else for the rest of your martial arts life.

BTW, if I do not know that Picaso was a famous artist and his paintings are selling for millions now, I would have thought his paintings were done by a congenital spastic.

And I'll never understand why people do so much push-ups at martial arts classes.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#365982 - 10/20/07 12:06 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Hi Victor, I agree with your note about assumptions....however, if no fair assumptions can be made about videos of people neither one of us has trained with...then what the heck are we even discussing it at all for?

The fact is, we DO have to make assumptions in order to even discuss what each of us sees (or doesn't see). If we aren't willing to do that, then silence is the best option.

since I don't know that particular kata, but I do have ideas of how kata in general can be used as a training aide - I have superimposed that drill with my sensabilities of what kata training can be, and what I come up with is that, the video shows a basic vanilla cookie-cutter crappy demonstration drill.

the assumptions I made to form that image:

- passai is an intermediate-level classic kata (as oppossed to a fundamental kata like fukyugata - in gekisai and fukyugata, beginners kata, I would be more accepting of the benefit of block/punch type simplicity for short-term early-on training).

- a red/white stripe belt in some shorin systems is a very advanced rank...6th dan? which would be at least 20 years training?

so he couldn't have been showing beginners, since they don't know the kata yet. if he was showing intermediate students, then wouldn't they have already done the block/punch robot stuff and moved on from that material?


those were my assumptions. based on those, I wouldn't recommend this video to be a good example of how kata can be used as a training aide. my gut tells me this is as advanced they train for this kata. however, I never underestimate the fact that I could have my butt handed to me by someone doing robot karate, XMA or professional cheerleading for that matter. should that be a consideration when evaluating an anonymous video that someone chooses to make worldwide public?

I mean, if every conversation boils down to who can kick who's ass, then it's not much of a discussion about the material itself, is it?

on the flip-side, it's possible to be so politically correct by not discounting anything, we can talk without saying anything. Don't know about you, but I blurt out opinions full of assumption and bias - I'm honestly delighted when someone points out that I'm wrong and why they think I'm wrong....which is why I always enjoy your rebuttal posts.

now, I'm coming up there and kicking your ass to settle this thread. lol

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#365983 - 10/20/07 03:13 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


- a red/white stripe belt in some shorin systems is a very advanced rank...6th dan? which would be at least 20 years training?

so he couldn't have been showing beginners, since they don't know the kata yet. if he was showing intermediate students, then wouldn't they have already done the block/punch robot stuff and moved on from that material?







My thoughts.

That just about sums up the videos. Block punch robot stuff
for demos with attacks that arent seen outside basic karate. I suppose if they put some reality in to it then maybe it would lose the as described karate modal.

Jude

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#365984 - 10/20/07 05:15 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I mean, if every conversation boils down to who can kick who's ass, then it's not much of a discussion about the material itself, is it?




That is true, unless it is the material itself that gives the practitioner his ability to kick one's ass.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#365985 - 10/20/07 05:21 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,

My point about making assumptions isn't about how you make them on what you see, but about what else is in the program from watching a video. Very different points.

As to how we make assumptions its always a question about standards.

As to whether Patsai is an intermediate level classic kata, that also depends on ones assumptions. I don't distinguish kata in that way. Patsai in all it's variations and there are many, the 1977 book on Patsai showed 15 different versions, but I charaterize them more as 3 different themes, may be studied at any level, but as a tool chest it is as advanced as any kata.

But I'm afraid this discussion is reaching the point of each of our personal experiences which are vastly different.

I wonder if we're talking about the same thing. I just re-watched that patsai bunksi video and I didn't see any red and white belt.

BTW I'm not politically correct about what I see, it's just based on the experiences that I use training my students and myself.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#365986 - 10/20/07 07:55 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
my mistake Victor, I was addressing this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvI5RHpInmA&mode=related&search=
which is Naihanchi, not Passai.

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