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#366017 - 10/26/07 09:27 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

There is nothing particularily wrong with 'bunkai' nor is there anything particularily right with 'bunkai' as has been discussed. It's all situational.





I disagree. There is such thing as bad training methods.

Quote:

If set 'bunkai' are used to develop to later layers of training, and are done with sharp focused attacks (not like those in most videos, including the competition ones) it is a tool with value, but just that, one of many tools that can be used




A hammer is a tool too,but I don't hit screws with it.

Quote:

In fact it is one of the major tools in many Chinese systems, but it is neither the end of the art, just one begining step, too.




Well ,if the Chinese do it!!

Bunkai is not a beginning step to me. It is a method of training and understanding kata.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#366018 - 10/27/07 11:35 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

Well, Unyu, I too have seen a lot of the Matsubayashi out there. If you have seen what I have seen I am not surprised that you say what you say. However, what I do is different from what many Matsubayashi guys do, yet, at the same time it comes directly from Nagamine, through my teacher, and my own understanding of what I was taught. Imagine that. I use Nagamine's old school techniques and principles, but in more of a "whoop that ass" sort of way. But we've been through this before. I have HEARD a lot about Matsumura Seito, but seen very little. I would say that the nishime video was the best kata I have seen from that style, but no better than what I know Matsubayashi to be. I really don't post videos, as I know you don't either. But since we are comparing what we have personally seen and not what we personally do (since we both don't post videos) why don't you refer to one which represents what you know your style to be.

As far as bunkai real application training is all in fighting. Meaning there are no prearranged attacks. However, there is a form of training where specific attacks are launched to give a karateka the feel of how to "fit" a technique in against an specific attack.




I have a gut feeling that you are an awesome fighter and karate guy. I don't doubt that and I have respected you and your opinion. The subtleties missing from a Maatsubayashi kata series, like Naihanchi, are quite apparent if you've done both. From outside appearances the forms are similar amongst the Shorin Ryuha, yet there are missing details which enhance the overall benefit of kata training. Goju and Uechi Ryu people know what I'm talking about. It's how you move, especially your hips, that gives you away. I guess it's the Tomari Te in the training methodology, I dunno.

I have only seen two Matsumura seito kata vids; one of Passai and the other is that low-quality video of Kusanku. The Passi guy was not very good. He did his kata like some of the Shorin Ryuha I've seen. School boyish. No refinement. The Nishimine vid was good. Just like Sensei Lindsey teaches it. If you look at it again there are a few points, that don't need high resolution or perfect focus or brightness, that are markedly different. Otherwise the contrast in that video sucks, you can't see a lot.

Our Seisan kata is unique among the Shorin systems. Our Chinto is fresh... What else you wanna know? Bunkai? On the web? Come on, man.

That prearranged bunkai stuff looks hella cool. Most Shotokan guys I've met can fight. They are tough. Obviously, doing that crap does something for you.

Me I believe in a more Kuntaw Silat or even Aikijutsu/Aikido theory behind navigating through multiple attackers.
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#366019 - 10/27/07 04:23 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Thanks for the reply Unyu. Really what I am looking for is specifically what you are referring you to when you talk about this stuff that is missing from Matsubayashi. For example you talk about although the video of Nishime is of poor quality you say that you can see this quality. Where is it, at what time mark? In addition, what is the benefit of this quality? Does it produce greater power than that of Matsubayashi? Does it aid better in the grappling techniques? Again, I agree that the two styles are not the same and do things in exactly the same manner, however, what is the advantage of this quality you are refering to? Do you see it in the video of Hohan Soken that is on the net. I know he was an old man in that vid and I also understand that as a karateka ages and advances they shave of extra movement and it may not be readily apparent. However, if there is no functional advantage then for me it does not mean much to simply do something that is more old school or more okinawan just to be able to say that it is. In addition, its easy to simply say that something is better with no real explaination as to why. That is also part of the problem with the internet, although we can get an idea, but I understand it is hard to do in text.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#366020 - 10/27/07 10:18 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: BrianS]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


Practicing in this manner is wrong. It is a poor method of understanding bunkai, or should I say misunderstanding.





Why? what is wrong with it?

Quote:

Not exactly. Having four people stand around you for kata bunkai is wrong. Just because the kata may go four ways, it's just a misinterpretation.





Isn't that a problem with the chosen bunkai as opposed to the method of practice?

Quote:


Bunkai is against one attacker, not several, we are not superhuman easily defeating four or five opponents.





I was not aware the practitioners thought they were learning to fight more than one person? I don't believe that that is the point.

So what you are saying is that if 4 people stand around you at compass points and attack one at a time then you must be training to fight multiple opponents (which is an inaccurate interpretation of kata bunkai)?

How about if you faced one and the other three sat on a bench and came up one after the other? Would that also be bad bunkai training?

I think too much is being read into this training method when actually it is just a way of including people in the fun.
This is how the method was presented to me.

You are in a school which includes bunkai on the syllabus. It is taught as kata1 move 1 = A, kata1 move 2 = B. Easiest way to remember the applications and where they fall in the kata is to practice them in sequence as you already know the kata. Doing that with one partner involves lots of resetting as partner changes position. Doing it with 4 partners around you means you can just go and each person takes a turn.

It can be quite a fun way to practice. I know fun doesn't go a long way to being a hard as nails fighter but
I like when its a part of the classes I'm in.

Just so it is clear the idea that you are fighting more than one person has never been raised while I've done this training method. Infact you're not supposed to be fighting anyone, you are practicing a kata interactively.

Also I've never seen this method used as more than a fun way to remember the standard bunkai for a form. One on one partner practice is still the mainstay of learning any type of applicable movement or technique.

That said I can't see a problem with having people stand at compass points and performing App 1 then app 2 then app 3 on each individual then switching, particularly in a mixed abiility group.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#366021 - 10/28/07 05:19 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



[I have only seen two Matsumura seito kata vids; one of Passai and the other is that low-quality video of Kusanku. The Passi guy was not very good. He did his kata like some of the Shorin Ryuha I've seen. School boyish. No refinement.




Hi

I dont quite get that one. How was he supposed to do the kata? `

Jude

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#366022 - 10/29/07 09:41 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Bryan,

I've been thinking about your comment "Our Seisan kata is unique among the Shorin systems." and I've been doing a little research on it.

I imagine your Seisan is similar to Kise Sensei's, they seem to match much of the notes you had made on Seisan quite a while ago.

Watching a video of Kise doing Seisan, while far from clear, at first glance looks just like a variation on the Seisan theme. Closer looking shows several other front front kicks that other Seisan kata don't use.

Cross reference that with Christopher Caille's article on Kise and kicking at http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=424 I would surmise that the whip kicks and those extra front kicks are essentially toe kicks into the legs.

The use of the toe kick is born out in the Toshikaki Gillespie video I have of Chinto, Gojushiho, Kusanku and Rohai. He does show some interesting 'bunkai' in his videos.

So perhaps the difference in your Seisan is use of the toe kicks? But I know some Matsubayshi use toe kicking in their Gojushiho Kata?

Last weekend I attended a seminar on Isshinryu by a friend, John Kerker who uses extesive kicks to the lower leg, knee joints, thighs (inner and outer) to conclude attacks when the interior of the attack has been opened. This sort of kicking is within the core of Isshinryu, but not as noticable in kata peformance, but from deeper application study.

Of course this is just logical analysis on my part. Whatever limb comes in ones direction, the goal of course is to neutralize it's use. One system's answer really is not better than anothers, its more important how they use the tools provided, IMO.

Perhaps you're right and your Seisan is more unique than other Shorin versions? I'm not sure that is independently verifiable.

Personally I have great respect for all Seisan traditions.

And toe kicks, well I personally use them from the Tam Tuie tradition, with my shoes on and in the range from the ankle to the knee, on the whole.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#366023 - 10/29/07 10:54 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Victor,
I'm glad to hear that you had another opportunity to get together with Mr. Kerker. I know you enjoyed your previous time with him.

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#366024 - 10/29/07 11:43 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

Quote:



[I have only seen two Matsumura seito kata vids; one of Passai and the other is that low-quality video of Kusanku. The Passi guy was not very good. He did his kata like some of the Shorin Ryuha I've seen. School boyish. No refinement.




Hi

I dont quite get that one. How was he supposed to do the kata? `

Jude




He had the gist of it, but details, subtle body movements and so on, are missing. He's just running through the basic form without regard for refinement, timing, hip thrust, failure to adjust his stepping. He's stiff and shoulder locked. These are things you wouldn't recognize unless you did a style that was not patent. Shotokan people would have the least idea what it was I was speaking of. 9 out of 10 Shorin Ryu folks have no clue as to what I'm speaking of. They do their kata just as superficially.

That cat was not good, but I do expect the untrained eye to think it was perfectly fine. See, even a lot of Seito guys are sub par too. It's just the "Law of Averages", knowhatImean?! Of course not...


Edited by Unyu (10/29/07 11:51 PM)
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#366025 - 10/30/07 09:22 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jude, You are correct, Kissaki (Vince Morris's organisation) tends not to work/practice against the old Shotokan oizuki attack much except maybe at a basic level because it is an unlikely attack and it is relatively slow compared to closer attacks even when done by the quickest. Hooks, grabs and hooks, short range straight punches and headbutts and some locks are the usual things defended against.

B.

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#366026 - 10/31/07 06:32 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




He had the gist of it, but details, subtle body movements and so on, are missing. He's just running through the basic form without regard for
Quote:


refinement,




Huh? could you explain further? If I perform seoinage for a grading it is as per taught. If I do the same throw on some one with a gi in randori its subject to making it work given
those particuler circumstances with a lot of variations.
If moves in kata reflect certain techniques or are practicing principles then I presume the basics would be as per the throw done at grading?

Quote:


They do their kata just as superficially.

That cat was not good, but I do expect the untrained eye to think it was perfectly fine. See, even a lot of Seito guys are sub par too. It's just the "Law of Averages", knowhatImean?! Of course not...




Problem is with out knowing what he should be doing as regards what the kata is meant for most people would be at a loss.

So can I ask ,
What is the goal of that kata?
What is it aimed at? What are the techniques available?

I think I can see some elbow destructiuons in there,chin na stlye.

In order to fully understand the negative comments then I think the whole kata should be analised and discussed.Step by step otherwise no one understands anything.

Jude.

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