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#365997 - 10/22/07 02:36 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539


Hi Medulant.

So are you saying that on the video it is a stepping stone so to speak? Then perhaps they would move on to applications that resemble the techniques done during the kata practice after establishing a basis for their use?

If I could draw a parrelel. Might sound idiotic but I have been watching/ analising some of Tank Abbot's fights.

In one of his fights I can see basic techniques found in BJJ( and more than likely other grappling styles) on the ground done with a variation. The problem is with out knowing these basics done in a somewhat boring and mundane way I wouldnt have recognised what he is actualy doing.

Is this what your argument is?

Jude

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#365998 - 10/22/07 03:37 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I am saying that the drills are used for several different reasons, none of which are the acutal fighting application of Shorin Ryu techniques. They condition the arms and legs, develop quick and agile movement, they develop basic distance control, and develop proper techinque. It is important to remeber that Matsubayashi is a precision striking art. These drills are designed to develop precise movements. Once precision, conditioning, and mobility under fire is gained then the fighting application of kata is explored.
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#365999 - 10/22/07 07:17 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Sorry Med, when replying I was thinking of my own experience in Shotokan, which as we know is always stiff and robotic
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#366000 - 10/23/07 07:35 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
so Jim, in the 2 videos you referenced at this thread's opening, do you see any usefulness or change your mind about that kind of training method?

personally, I don't see it as anything but bad habit forming. not even for a temporary of progressive study. why train 2-person drills that are conceptually far removed from later study?

what can they be possibly isolating to benefit? timing? mai? there are better ways to develop those skills without involving pre-arrainged long-range attacks. IMO.

just my opinion, but I'm seeing whats shown in the video as fairly useless training and bad habit forming. I would categorize both vids as examples of how NOT to train kata.

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#366001 - 10/23/07 07:42 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I am saying that the drills are used for several different reasons, none of which are the acutal fighting application of Shorin Ryu techniques. They condition the arms and legs, develop quick and agile movement, they develop basic distance control, and develop proper techinque. It is important to remeber that Matsubayashi is a precision striking art. These drills are designed to develop precise movements. Once precision, conditioning, and mobility under fire is gained then the fighting application of kata is explored.




Thanks Medulant. I can see the use of that.

Quote:


Shonuff
Sorry Med, when replying I was thinking of my own experience in Shotokan, which as we know is always stiff and robotic





I am inclined to agree with that.Some shotokan seems to be . Basic wado was the same.
It would seem Itosu's teachings were never realy further explored other than from people like vince morris,
and Geoff Thompson etc.

Jude

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#366002 - 10/23/07 09:05 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

so Jim, in the 2 videos you referenced at this thread's opening, do you see any usefulness or change your mind about that kind of training method?

personally, I don't see it as anything but bad habit forming. not even for a temporary of progressive study. why train 2-person drills that are conceptually far removed from later study?

what can they be possibly isolating to benefit? timing? mai? there are better ways to develop those skills without involving pre-arrainged long-range attacks. IMO.

just my opinion, but I'm seeing whats shown in the video as fairly useless training and bad habit forming. I would categorize both vids as examples of how NOT to train kata.




Ed

I think I can see the skill building that is being used that others have spoken about.I suppose its a beggining. Maybe later the long range attacks are/should be duplicated? The blocks turn in to strikes but I dont study Medulants style so I cant comment.
As robotic as they look I think I can see the purpose.

Can I ask what you think the methods of teaching such things are?

Jude

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#366003 - 10/23/07 10:05 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Can I ask what you think the methods of teaching such things are?



methods such as the drills shown in the videos? I think they are effective at developing bad habits. If as a visual demonstration, this kind of choreographing is not particularly imaginitive....it follows the 'arms as swords' mindset.

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#366004 - 10/23/07 10:50 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Can I ask what you think the methods of teaching such things are?



methods such as the drills shown in the videos? I think they are effective at developing bad habits. If as a visual demonstration, this kind of choreographing is not particularly imaginitive....it follows the 'arms as swords' mindset.





Yes it appears to but maybe its a part of a thought out progression. That said at some point progression should be made?
I would however like to see the progression if such a one exists.

It would seem that Vince Morris is also some what against the typical karate attack method judging by his videos.


Jude

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#366005 - 10/23/07 07:49 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

so Jim, in the 2 videos you referenced at this thread's opening, do you see any usefulness or change your mind about that kind of training method?

personally, I don't see it as anything but bad habit forming. not even for a temporary of progressive study. why train 2-person drills that are conceptually far removed from later study?

what can they be possibly isolating to benefit? timing? mai? there are better ways to develop those skills without involving pre-arrainged long-range attacks. IMO.

just my opinion, but I'm seeing whats shown in the video as fairly useless training and bad habit forming. I would categorize both vids as examples of how NOT to train kata.




I agree Ed. It's the same thing as showing and teaching kata as fighting with your back against a wall or taking on five opponents from different directions who take turns attacking you as a form of BUNKai. Then after they make brown belt, show them what it really is.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#366006 - 10/24/07 04:54 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Quote:

I am saying that the drills are used for several different reasons, none of which are the acutal fighting application of Shorin Ryu techniques. They condition the arms and legs, develop quick and agile movement, they develop basic distance control, and develop proper techinque. It is important to remeber that Matsubayashi is a precision striking art. These drills are designed to develop precise movements. Once precision, conditioning, and mobility under fire is gained then the fighting application of kata is explored.





Why not practice those attributes WHILE practicing fighting applications?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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