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#366057 - 11/06/07 08:09 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA

In that case I agree. Just that the testimonials and the late night infomercial approach to "old school" Okinawan Karate gets a little old when only those in the choir are singing Hallelujah. The qualifier is that "Your results will vary."

Not to say kata is not a bastion for the assorted trade secrets of many an ancient karate fighter, but that it may also be just an assortment of ideas that are rather more universal (than not) and which are trained by others in different ways to reach the same goals...and by those who have little to no truck with Okinawan karate.

#366058 - 11/07/07 07:51 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: butterfly]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I just ran across these clips:

Shito-ryu seisan bunkai

Seisan Shito Ryu

Seisan Bunkai 1
Seisan Bunkai 2
Seisan Bunkai 3
Seisan Bunkai 4
Seisan Bunkai 5

And for the Shotokan crowd

NIJUSHIHO le kata , le bunkai , la réalité par Didier Lupo
KARATE bassaï-daï kata bunkai défense par Didier Lupo
KANKU-DAÏ BUNKAÏ par Didier Lupo
Tekki shodan kata bunkai défense par Didier Lupo
ENPI le kata le bunkai la réalité
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#366059 - 11/07/07 10:42 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At

I have the Hohan Soken DVD "Life of the Grandmaster" -you and others have probably watched it...


Hohan Soken - The Life of a Grand Master This historic video is a documentary on Hohan Soken, 10th Dan and founder of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu Karate. It includes “Newly Discovered- Lost Footage” of Hohan Soken. It includes a biography of Soken Sensei detailing his life in Karate Do. It also shows rare historic footage of Soken Sensei performing various kata including: Naihanchi 1-3, Seisan, Chinto, Kusanku, Gojushiho, Rohai, Tsuken bo, Kama Kusari and Hakutsuru, the closely guarded secret white crane kata of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu. Additionally, the video includes rare footage of some of Soken Sensei’s top students performing in Okinawa in the 1960s and much more! This documentary style video is a piece of history and brings the past to life! It preserves the teachings of a highly respected Okinawan Grand Master whose legacy was to bring karate from a bygone age into the modern era. A must for the serious martial arts collector.

as far as what is shown on there of his top students during the 60's (which is prior to when you say things started getting washed out), I didn't see anything other than your typical vanilla Itosu shorin-ryu type movement that you berate. It's the type of movement that speaks as students not knowing the application of it's principles or body dynamics.
I reserve giving opinion on the Hohan Soken himself kata footage, since he looked quite old. we can only hope to move as well at that age - but it's difficult, if not impossible to see the dynamic which seniors are demonstrating with a slow step-thru....and maybe his students were just imitating the movement of their aged master.

I don't know who is on that video. I know that Lindsey, Coffman, Nishihira, Nishimine, Akamine, Gingras and Tatum are all very good Okinawan Karate stylists. I have yet to see any video that gives you the feeling and instruction that a 7 hour training session with Lindsey Shinshii imparts.

If you think that that Kusanku video by Nishimine looks like the Matsubayashi, Kobayashi, Shobayashi, Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Wado or other Kusanku you've seen on video then you can't tell what is real and what isn't. Again without formal training in the kata, how can you tell what is good or bad? It'd be like me commenting on how good a Cricket player someone is. It would be pure conjecture based on a lack of deep knowledge in the subject.

Lindsey will tell you himself that all these guys claiming to have studied with Soken did so at a time when the guy was over 70. His karate was not as it was when he was 40. His kata was what you saw. Outstanding for an old guy, but changed to fit his current body. As a result you'll see many of his students mimic a movement that was not executed in the same manner when Soken was young. They'll actually do their forms like an old man! We use to talk about it all the time and laugh our arses off.

Ed, you're looking for all these karate answers in a virtual way. If you ever think that you want to know what old style karate was like before it was overly diluted look for a Shorin Ryu guy that can teach you these things. That is if they will teach you because many of the old style sensei will interview you first before they allow you to train with them.

I really take what you say with a grain of salt. You're one of the folks on here who can't seem to discern the real from the fake, so you attack everything. On these sites I'm an armchair quarterback, as far as you know. In the dojo I am pretty good and credit that to being lucky enough to train with the right people in my life. That was not always the way as I have trained with some hacks too. Those instances allowed me to compare the plastic with the true.

Maybe one day if you guys decide to have a training session (get together) in South Texas then we can all meet. I would be glad to train with ernest and adept people. I'm sure you guys could teach me a lot. At the same time we could do some drills which would test your physical resilience and give you a different way to look at "yakusoku kumite" and the such.

Comparing and contrasting in person is a much better way to prove things. Then you can see how the esoterica binds with the concrete, how science beats out hope. How the old ways can be what everyone has been searching for Stateside and Europe-side for years.

BTW Butterfly, there is no doubt in my mind from what you write to your vids that you can "talk the walk" and vice-versa. Same for Jim, Medulanet, BuDoc, Hedkikr, CVV, Matt, Victor and a few others.

Time to take my meds as Eddie the Shrink would say. Gotta go do kata! Train hard and smart...
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

#366060 - 11/07/07 11:00 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
I liked those videos and renditions of kata and bunkai. Again, there is a lot of block-wait-strike-wait-throw-pause gendai stuff in it, but they were cool.

The use of a wide horse stance in Tekki is baffling to me, but that is the Shotokan way. Also originally in the kata, Naha-te, Tomari-te and Shurit-te there were basically two kicks (front kick and inside crescent kick) and lots of knee strikes. You can tell if a style is schoolboy or not by use of techs like the sidekick and horizontal fist and such. Obviously schoolboy karate is the norm so the old way is the odd man out usually, so more power to you.

As a Kishaba Juku guy, did you learn that all karate was the same? The principles of Kishaba Juku borrow heavily from Soken's karate. Is there a reason that it was favored over the Matsubayashi model? I never asked you this before, but I wanted to know your take.

BTW karate is more than kata and bunkai. Much more.
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

#366061 - 11/07/07 11:24 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Tekki Shodan at 4min 13 seconds a punch landed on him when multiple strikes were thrown. Not effective bunkai. The slow motion really shows he would have gotten nailed but the Uke punched to the side.

Kinda funny to let that be shown if you're saying it's effective bunkai.
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

#366062 - 11/08/07 12:05 AM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Unyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Bryan, again with the personal insults. OK, I'll bite so lets dance.

Out of the people on this forum how many have you met up and trained with? I note you've been on these boards for MANY years longer than me- just reincarnated under a different moniker as oppossed to EVER using your real name with it's real spelling - isn't that right Mr. Bryan Cyr ? is it that you've managed not to meet anyone in person? no really. in that respect, you have much more qualification to be regarded the cyber-warrior and virtual student you accuse me of being. How many videos have you shared of your own performance? oh thats right, none.
So let me get this straight, I use my real name, I share a glimpse of my movement online and meet forum members in person - you don't, and nobody has ever seen you move; every one of your posts talk down to people like they are children... and I'M the poser? time to flip the mirror, ya coward.

Butterfly, Hedkikr, Victor, Jim (wuxing), other unnamed MAists here and unnamed well-known published MA authors/teachers - when we met in person, even though we haven't trained in the same Arts, I can still see the years of training in their movements when we shared in person. Every martial artist thats been around for a while can look at another's movement regardless of the specific material, and guess about how many years they are seeing...especially among different styles of Karateka. You don't acknowledge that, but yet you do 'da realz'?

I'm sick of your mudslinging me when I disagree or give honest feedback/opinion that you happen not to like.

You hold Brad (butterfly), Ed (hedkikr), and Victor in high reguard, yes? - do me a favor and send them each a PM and ask them directly: "Is Ed M. a fraud, wannabe, cyber-stylist?" Then you'll at least have an informed opinion from people who have actualy shared with me in person. In fact, if you DON'T do that, it will just serve to underline your propensity to armchair observe without fact do this so you don't have to confront changing your pre-formed opinions...another cowardly trait.

Take your style-snobbery and shove it up your hip-hop 'O-shiiti', aho-jin.

{this'd be the part where you disappear without responding then come back on after people have forgotten the fact that nobody online here or any other forum you've been banned from has ever seen you move in person or on video. ya hypocritic.}

#366063 - 11/08/07 12:12 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
The seisan bunkai was certainly a waste of movement,& way too nice for effective SD,but atleast both karateka were brave enough showing it on the web.

#366064 - 11/08/07 12:29 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA

The principles of Kishaba Juku borrow heavily from Soken's karate. Is there a reason that it was favored over the Matsubayashi model?

Unyu, I don't know if this statement is quite accurate. Kishaba Juku came from Matsubayashi. Although Kishaba did study with Sokon back in the day for a time, in Okinawa this was a common practice. Kishaba's teachings are based on those of Seigi Nakamura. Nakamura was a senior instructor in Matsubayashi and student of Nagamine. Nakamura developed his own way in Matsubayashi as did/do all seniors. This is the way in Matsubayashi. Keep the principles intact, however, you develop your own way as well. The Kishaba Juku guys are building on Nakamura's teachings of Matsubayashi, which he built upon what Nagamine taught, which Nagamine built upon what his teachers taught and so on and so forth. I think a more accurate statement would be principles of Kishaba Juku borrow heavily from Nagamine's karate. Or maybe the karate of Nagamine and Soken are a lot closer than you or those you are associated with realize.
Dulaney Dojo

#366065 - 11/08/07 01:46 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Jim, in regard to your original question posed to the thread. In my opinion anyway, there are few that can show the transition from kumite drills (like the examples you gave), to actual usage in a chaotic setting with stakes, such as in semi/full-contact 'spar' (for lack of a better term, but you know what I mean: non-compliant 2-person work with the risk of getting hit...Okinawan art teachers sometimes call it 'play' ).

The main reason I don't see transitioning from the one-step kumite stuff as a good learning method is because of the fact a large majority of karateka seem to never go beyond that stage. they get locked in and comfortable with being able to do pre-arrainged sets, almost as if training for demonstration of it as oppossed to making it work in a resistive mode. ...the 'play' is dead and instead it becomes an optimized performance. if that distinction makes sense. Thats the main danger I see.

but I don't 100% discount this as a training method either - everyone has to start somewhere of's just that staying there without taking it further could do more harm than good by ingraining bad or unrealistic habits.

We could say 'most likely' the video is showing a place that is stuck in one-step kumite mode, since it has advanced ranks demo'ing....but thats the rub with video segments, it can't show all that they do necessarily.

It should go without saying, (again), that in evaluation of video its only evaluating the content of the video itself - NOT to be extrapolated into: 'everything they do must suck'. WE know the opinions don't extrapolate to that, but give an opinion that someone doesn't like of a video, and they'll take it as an attack on the entire's simply not so.

similarly, if you want to be balanced about it, something seen to be really good doesn't necessarily make the entire system or training method to be so. it's simply an unknown which can't be commented on one way or the other - so we are left with JUST strictly the evaluation/thoughts on what IS shown.

try observing this sometime: give critical opinion of a video and the vested will swarm to defend it by saying the video doesn't show all there is to offer. yet, give praise of the same video and the vested will either be silent or underscore how whats shown is only a small sample of the good stuff and "there's plenty more where that came from!".

btw, Jim let me ask you and others - out of ALL the 'bunkai' vids you've seen...have you ever incorporated any into your practice? personally, I have not. Even ones that I thought looked pretty neat. why? flavors of Karate have varying theme, intent, strategim, and economies (embeded within movement/principles)....their peices don't interchange like lego blocks. very rarely could you pluck something out of Shotokan and place it into Goju without modification - too much has to be attached along with it - and if it isn't, then it becomes an artificial transplant. however, some things would seem to naturally blend....I just haven't come across any in video form, nor am I looking.

but people do it anyway. which is why over the years, we have seen traditional karate begin to merge into one gigantic 'vanilla' style. don't know about you, but just seeing kata performance from competition clips alone, the modes of movement between styles has become harder and harder to distinguish - I increasingly can't tell mainstream Shorin from mainstream Shotokan or Goju. everyone moves the same. similar thing when I see the typical 'bunkai' demos people are throwing around.

just one persons thoughts. not a call to be targeted for ad hominem attack or anything.

#366066 - 11/08/07 02:27 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA

btw, Jim let me ask you and others - out of ALL the 'bunkai' vids you've seen...have you ever incorporated any into your practice?

Ed, if you don't then it is your bunkai that is the problem, not bunkai in general. I personally utilize the bunkai I practice in all resistive practices. When I train my adult students in kumite there are very few techniques that we disallow. We utilize our supplimentary training (such as atemi waza development using makiwara/muay thai pads/focus pads/kick shields/heavy bag training as well as our grappling/karate wrestling training) and we utilize our bunkai oyo/application training).
Dulaney Dojo

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