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#365987 - 10/20/07 08:17 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

That is true, unless it is the material itself that gives the practitioner his ability to kick one's ass.



easy there, killer. in effect what you are saying is if any non-kata trained fighter can kick your butt, then it makes your arguments for kata study null and void. whereas, I think arguments on a forum should just stand on their own.

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#365988 - 10/20/07 04:08 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

That is true, unless it is the material itself that gives the practitioner his ability to kick one's ass.



easy there, killer. in effect what you are saying is if any non-kata trained fighter can kick your butt, then it makes your arguments for kata study null and void. whereas, I think arguments on a forum should just stand on their own.




No, that's what you are saying. I am simply pointing out that the ultimate goal of any such exercise should be to develop skill in fighting. Now, you said that kicking butt doesn't matter, but in fighting I think that ultimately it does. And, in fact, I think your entire arguement is based on the premise that these excersises will not assist one in kicking butt. Now, if you found an instance where such drills did in fact give an individual the ability to improve their fighting wouldn't that put into doubt what you are saying as well? I have never been one to say that kata is the only way to learn to fight. In fact, I have never said that kata is the best way to learn how to fight. It is my assertion, however, that kata training(if done right) has the ability to improve a some people's ability to fight.
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#365989 - 10/20/07 05:36 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you aren't following.

I'll summarize:

this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvI5RHpInmA&mode=related&search=

shows how one group trains kata. I think this method is ineffective for training good habits, but very effective at training bad ones. It was warned that we shouldn't assume that this group doesn't also train in other methods as well - and such training shouldn't be underestimated in what they practitioners can do (ie don't underestimate that because people train like this, that they aren't tough cookies)...which, while true, it's beyond the scope of evaluating JUST the video.

if you see a video of someone performing kusanku wearing a tutu and moving like a balerina, and you evaluate the video as being a joke...then you meet him in person, and he turns out to be a really effective fighter - are you then going to change your evaluation of the video and say that balerina kusanku is effective training?

I would hope not. so, what is your evaluation of this thread's video? do you train robotic naihanchi against multiple opponents? do you think it's an effective learning tool working towards building/refining good habits?

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#365990 - 10/20/07 07:03 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I think I mentioned earlier I disagreed with this particular Naihanchi bunkai due to the ukes pretending to be hurt by the strikes. This type of training is not useful. The specific bunkai I am referring to is the Matsubayashi Passai bunkai because I have knowledge of that training method. However, if he is able to defeat opponents using skills he developed in this I would change my mind. If a ballerina karateka defeated me with ballet spins, jumps, and kicks, I may change my mind on that as well. For example, ballet may allow the fighter to develop flexibility, strength, and endurance to develop strong fighting skill. I personally live by the proverb, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating." I usually don't judge what people have been cooking until I have eaten a few of their meals.
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#365991 - 10/20/07 09:29 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,

Just to clarify things the only video I was talking about was the one showing 'patsai bunkai' as a training drill in my estimation.

I do not talk about what I'm not interested in, which are most performances of Nihanchi(Naifanchi). But I would say this the video you're taling about is not demonstrating much.
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#365992 - 10/21/07 09:51 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
my appologies guys, I had the two video's switched up.

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#365993 - 10/21/07 07:37 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,

With some reservations I'm going to suggest the following video clip makes my point that 'bunkai' as shown is a training tool.

The attacks shown on the whole aren't terribly threatening, but provide lines of attack to work against for focus.

The bunkai shown are mostly beginning tools, but I think the obvious skill of the instructor shows how this can be an effective beginning way to combine kata technique execution into a specific attacking sequence.

SHINSHINKAN KARATE DO : Karate Kata Bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obxC9bBzhq8

The system shown is interesting, the instructor teaches in Japan, but he studied this art in Argentina, which in turn was descended from Angi Uzeu of Isshinryu.

It is a cleanly executed variation on the Isshinryu theme.

These beginning 'bunkai' do not begin to touch how any of these techniques from several Isshinryu kata, beginning with Nainahchi(Naifanchi), but make my contention this is a step on the way. It never hurts to execute as the instructor is doing for the further application potential studies.

As an Isshinryu stylist this group does and does not represent what I do, but this shows an admirable technique execution ability.

pleasantly,
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#365994 - 10/21/07 09:23 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
This "Compass Point Uke" method is to me like Kihon kata (Taikyuko Shodan) in that it is a great platform, anything can be built onto it but in its core original form it is almost worthless once you have a year or two.

Can I suggest that the stiff robotic movement is an issue of the chosen application and a different point to the usefulness of the training method?

By this I mean that the platform of the CPU method simply gives a clear and easily viewable demonstration of the testers kata and knowledge of the taught bunkai. If that taught bunkai is block from out of distance and punch air then that is a seperate matter.

If the problem is with the ritualised nature of the uke's movements then I would suggest that this is something that at higher levels would be changed.
I say this having been subjected to this method of working kata a few times. It starts out stiff and rigid as surface application is performed and gets more free flowing as deeper principles are practiced, so you can consider this post as evidence that in at least some cases this method is practiced with progression.

I would imagine that senior grades are shown performing the simplistic method because it is the fundament of the drill and it is being recorded to show that and not to show off.
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#365995 - 10/21/07 09:57 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
As I don't really don't know the groups practices I can't say where these 'bunkai' sit on curricula. To me they seem a training tool, period.

I would say the seinor instructor showing the techniques is most definately the goal students are working for.
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#365996 - 10/21/07 11:05 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I would also add that robotic stiff movements are the choice of the practitioner. I have never met any teacher of shorin instruct his or her students to be as stiff and robotic as possible to remove all semblance of smooth athletic movement.
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