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#365957 - 10/17/07 03:49 AM Bunkai Methods....................?
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I have watched a few Kata Bunkai demos recently,

Im trying to work out what benefit having a few people around you and performing the whole kata bunkai (against long distance 'karate' techniques?) brings to the karateka?

Heres a prime example of what im talking about -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ2YBEImTkc&mode=related&search=

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvI5RHpInmA&mode=related&search=


I can certainly see the sport and karatedo perspective on all of this (and can admire that),

but does this kind of practice have anything to do with the reality of real life violence or indeed functional martial arts practice ?
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Jim Neeter

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#365958 - 10/17/07 05:32 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Jim,

The real life application is that this sort of 'bunkai' is a skill building exercise. Working on application precision and then increasing the speed of attacks, and then working on attacks with broken timing are to bulid to more precise technique execution.

Most of the classical applications are just that basic skill building exercises, moving into a pre-defined attack, moving into a space to execute a technique.

IMO without very precise skill building traditions you just end up with sloppy karate or most of the MMA I've seen.

I don't use the aproach seen but some of my instructors use it.

It should just be an intermediate application study and there are many other layers beyond that as I see it, but I can most definately see value in it.

That it may be used for sport or public demonstration fine. If it misleads others that this is all you have, even better.

Why would any intelligent MA really want to show and have youtube videos of what you can really do or where you would really go.

I find the Patsai Bunkai video refreshing because the performer is most sincerly showing skill in his execution.

Thanks for sharing that.
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#365959 - 10/17/07 08:00 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
strangepair03 Offline
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Posts: 5
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The Naihanchi bunkai was.......Interesting.
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#365960 - 10/17/07 09:47 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: strangepair03]
Stormdragon Offline
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The Naihanchi bunkai was...retarded in it's defense but not so bad in it's offense IMO.
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#365961 - 10/17/07 12:26 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
hedkikr Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
(can't access YouTube from my work computer so I'll view it later, but...)

After years of exposure to "traditional" interpretations & w/ far more years of actual SD situations under my belt, I came to the conclusion several years ago that an attacker isn't going to attack w/ an Oitsuki (step-in punch) & hold his punching arm still while you go all "BruceLee" on him.

I started looking @ kata from a real-life perspective & began to see the practical (although not fancy) techniques based on the proper body mechanics. A few years later, I happened to read McCarthy's HAPV (Habitual Acts of Physical Violence) Theory. It dove-tailed w/ the way viewed kata & established the way I practice & study kata.

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#365962 - 10/17/07 12:56 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
As far as the Matsubayashi Ryu Passai bunkai Victor is right, it is a skill building exercise. Matsubayashi Ryu's more advanced levels of skill are based on precision and this is what it is building, not only in waza, but stance work and distancing as well. Not to say that the fighting application is executed at the distance shown, but the ability to control distance through footwork and disect your opponent through handwork. This is not sport application but one method of training. As the speed is increased and the opponent attacks are varied the bunkai oyo becomes apparent. You begin to learn how an opponent who attacks with intent begins to "fit" into your techniques. This is also where the grappling aspects become apparent and begin to make sense. As an attack becomes more aggressive the range becomes closer. If you have developed a high level of technique execution and understand the "karate wrestling" contained in shorin ryu training the steps and turns drop the opponents that the apparent waza didn't. The the follow up techniques are applied to grounded opponents.

As far as the second video that is simply bad training due to the fact that at no time does pretending to be hurt and fall out make for effective fight training.
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#365963 - 10/17/07 03:46 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I hear what your saying guys but im not convinced this is the case,

I feel it's more likely something brought about to demonstrate how clever we are,

more than a sensible approach to real life application.

It simply doesn't make sense to me, and doesn't fit the older karate model (which im finding more and more about all the time).
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#365964 - 10/17/07 04:11 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Jim,

The question of course is which old karate model are you talking about? Even if this is a recent development I can see the logic, its much more useful than just for demonstrations.

My friend Tristan Sutrisno used similar exercises (but not the same) and this really isn't different from the Chinese systems using two person drills which an be ultra extensive.
In that sense this might be based on far older traditions.

But of course there are many older traditions. Some Isshinryu traditions use similar methods.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#365965 - 10/17/07 04:15 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Jim,

Quote:

and doesn't fit the older karate model




How so? Do you mean primarily the range at which it takes place?
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#365966 - 10/17/07 04:29 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
re which karate model im using, of course Victor you are right - there are many, dependent on time and lineage, even to different masters reasons to train.

So my awnser is one that is unfolding Victor................

Im particulary thinking of the karate model that doesn't involve working in an extremly unrealistic manner, with poor Bunkai that simply doesn't make any real sense.

Sure it is a 2 man drill to a point, but it is not taking into account effective combinations, angling, delivery distance, actual natural response or set up etc etc.

Im all for literal Bunkai as a literal study and skill development tool, im all for 2 man 'fixed' work, I use these methods in my dojo.

but I just don't see the benefits of working a whole kata against several 'opponents' stepping in with a poor oi tsuki (thats programed to miss anyhow ).

Lets Chew the fat on this one, I may come around to seeing where you are coming from. But proberly won't..............
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#365967 - 10/17/07 05:06 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

but I just don't see the benefits of working a whole kata against several 'opponents' stepping in with a poor oi tsuki (thats programed to miss anyhow ).




This statement leads me to believe you don't understand at least what I am describing. Even when working classical bunkai the attacks are real in that if you miss with your technique you get hit, hard. That is what develops precision. The fact that if you are not precise and don't use proper technique you get clocked. I think the question is if such training develops transferable skills, right? Is the precision developed in such training able to be used in the chaos of a "real fight."

You can write all day long and develop exquisite writing skills, however, if you never stop to sharpen your pencil eventually your words won't come out and you will not be able to get your point across.

It reminds me of when I played football in college. When we had a poor practice or did not perform well in a game we would run "Perfect Play." In this drill we would basically run offensive plays against air. Similar to who kata are performed on air. And guess what. It really did help us develop precision when applied to the chaos of a football game. In addition we would run plays against blocking shields. Now, running plays against blocking shields does not mimick the same distance as against a real opponent nor does it develop the adjustments that must be made, but it does develop better technique. Once technique is perfected then it is easier to make adjustments. This is the same for kata, classical bunkai, and old style training. The thing is many combat oriented full contact practices be it karate or american football which have been around for more than a century develop similar ways to develop ability to perform with aggression and precision in a high stress situation.
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#365968 - 10/17/07 10:36 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Jim,

The answer is always based on the experiences we've held. While I'm interested in what we can glean from the past, it's not so as to change what I've experienced and practice in the now.

I've trained with a wide range of highly skilled instructors in different arts. Each as skills the other doesn't posses (and often does not belive in either) and as a restult of their instructors training can do truly awesome things.

Their arts often very different, but the binding key is higher skill development. Most of the techniques I'm talking about are worthless to study until you develop both a high level of skill and more importantly a very high level of belief in your ability to make happen.

But I too have students who are unwilling to spend another 20 years to really learn another skill. They end up skilled, but not at the level of those who are willing to keep training and forget their own logic.

In the end as almost no one really uses these skills it may not be important.

My own rule is when stressed you're likely not able to respond at your highest skill levels, but the higher you train the more skill you ought to be able to use.

Let me give an example, the instructor I trained my aikido studies under regualarity had his senior students really attack full power and with no set pattern of attack. He would respond with his highest level of skill and as even he is less than perfect I've seen him clip them and ko them on the spot while still standing. Such was not his intention, but to really work at that level everyone pays a price, in this case his senior students. But as non-correct as such training is, his students also developed skills at a level that softer training could not take.

In most techniques you cannot use realistic attacks and not destroy your partner, unless you keep the response way down, and thae does resemble 'dance'. But it's not.

If you look at the patsai kata bunkai, it's not the realism of the attacks being shown, but its the skill of the person in the center which is being developed. It is a step beyond just doing the kata with skill.

A logical program has layers beyond that. Whether the individual program is logical no one can say from watching the video.

Training is only useless if you don't undestand its purpose and pursue it fully.

I don't believe there are any masters or any rank that means a durn.

What I do believe is there are indivduals who are willing to define their own limits and move to them, and then there are individuals who are willing to step beyond what appears personally logical and step beyond.

The key is of course working to find knowledgable instructors and then finding a way to pay the price, which is very high and takes long. It CANNOT be done at clinics and short time training. Skill development is very, very long term.

BTW, the purpose of karate is never to fight. I defy anyone who thinks otherwise. If used there should be no fight. If you're fighting you're not doing karate, IMVHO.


Edited by Victor Smith (10/17/07 10:39 PM)
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#365969 - 10/17/07 10:59 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

BTW, the purpose of karate is never to fight. I defy anyone who thinks otherwise. If used there should be no fight. If you're fighting you're not doing karate, IMVHO.




Definitely Victor, when using karate there is only your opponent hitting the ground and not getting up.
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#365970 - 10/18/07 12:14 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I agree with you. and I also don't see interpretations like the ones in the video as 'training tools'...much less seeing advanced ranks still working on them.

let's assume for a sec that, ok, they are training tools. training tools towards what? A higher level of stiff, rigid, impractical responses to impractical attacks?

let's assume these guys are just demonstrating and don't really train like that. demonstrating what? all the cool things you can do with choregraphed practice? doesn't really make a case when we see choregraphed fighting a million times better and more believable in movies.

either of the 3 ways of looking at it fail their task:
- as a training aid towards an 'ideal'.
- as practical responses.
- as choreographed art.

therefore, it must be, for lack of a better word...a crap bunkai method. not to mention what is it teaching the uke? to stiffly straight punch 6" away from target then hold it there? greeeeat.


for starters, early on in training I think in order to make any of those three ways I mentioned useful for anything other than playing pretend karate, there has to be the possibility of getting hit.

- working towards an ideal built out of riskless training, is an ideal without purpose other than working towards an ideal of esthetics only. (ie: training only towards a look and feel of a particular style).

- working towards practical responses via riskless training is in itself not practical. The subtlties learned with the threat of getting hit, naturally make the responses move towards efficiency of the practical.

- if training towards prefecting choreographed sequences for demonstration and/or visual art performace of some kind, it has to be beleivable. you can't get believability without the observer sensing the risk of hits landing.


so, 'bunkai'...whether a person chooses to work on it towards ideal, practicality or demonstration HAS to first introduce the element of risk. A person training shouldn't be thinking: "oh I have to do this correctly or I'll disappoint my sensei" or "I won't pass my test" etc.

not responding properly should get you an ouchie....or at least it should carry that risk.

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#365971 - 10/18/07 12:49 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

not responding properly should get you an ouchie....or at least it should carry that risk.




Ed, did you read my post earlier?
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#365972 - 10/18/07 04:39 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hey Med,

Can you link us to what you consider to be good bunkai practice, done as you describe?

That would be a good start to understand what you are describing,
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#365973 - 10/18/07 07:02 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Im sure we have discussed this before -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkUYBQz9iE

I think this is a much better model to work for Bunkai myself, ok I don't agree with all of the interpretation but it is more alive, dealing with more typical assaults and handling one situation at a time.

This kind of work I think does deliver what Med and Victor are talking about, well more so than my first 2 examples.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#365974 - 10/18/07 09:07 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,

Its interesting you’re seeing the attacks and making the determination that this style of training – specifically the Patsai Bunkai is worthless. On the other hand I’m seeing the person performing those ‘bunkai’ and am looking at a skilled performance that I could really work with, and I do believe that the training shows is a part of the reason.

For one thing while I understand how the concept of ‘bunkai’ came about and why it is bandied about so frequently I reject it has any meaning. Just a Japanese construct that hardly fits what I see training as doing.

It has use to a point, but IMO only as small step skill building drills.

I came from the days when nobody practiced ‘bunkai’ in any of the karate schools I trained in (Isshinryu, Shorin Ryu, Goju Ryu). On the other hand my Isshinryu instructors took the handful of free sparring techniques and turned out fighter after fighter that could bounce through any attack and really had no reason to seek out ‘bunkai’ from a practical standard. What they did and taught worked. Likewise the other schools I trained with mostly did the same.

When I did become exposed to bunkai through a Shotokan stylist, but unlike JKA, his use of bunkai had nothing to do with specific kata applications, but was really a kakushite device to train thousands of karate/siliat/aikido techniques that work.

My own model is using kata technique as my base, but the concept of bunkai that is bandied about is too restrictive, too limiting to look at application potential as I see it.

Having a long experience training many types of individual potentials I personally come down on the side of skill building drills as my various instructors use them, to first develop a high level of movement dynamics and then gradually pick up the level of the attacks that they are used against.

The problem with realistic attacks is many of the direct applications done against harder and faster attacks simply mean you bust up your partner when you apply the kata series against that attack. That is because in many cases the kata sequence cannot fail.

And then you make the choice, is busting up students worth realistic training.

No doubt there are many development models. In my experience we are mostly limited to what our instructors teach and if we come to not believe their model then the only choice is to leave and perhaps find a better one or discontinue training if not.

I just often see things based on the experiences and training of very skilled people I’ve trained with. That and what I experience building my own students.

Pleasantly,
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#365975 - 10/18/07 01:33 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Hey Med,

Can you link us to what you consider to be good bunkai practice, done as you describe?

That would be a good start to understand what you are describing,




Actually I have never seen anything on the web that is the same as what I was taught to do and what I currently am working on. I have seen aspects of different things, however, nothing the same. I might call it Xtreme Matsubayashi based on the fact that it involves much heavier contact, body conditioning, limb destruction, and aggressive bunkai and kumite training. One of my teacher's Yondans used to talk about what he referred to as "Babies" in karate. He talked about how he met and trained with too many babies who did not understand the correlation between hard training/body conditioning and real karate. As far as our training of kata and kihon it is different because where I have seen many stop ours continues. Where many end with simply prearranged drills that is our launching platform for development of advanced skill. Our prearranged drills from yakusoku kumite, kata, and kihon and energized with more movement and free form that I have seen anywhere else. Even our arm training drills are done in the same manner. This movement and free form evolves into a better understanding of application.
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#365976 - 10/18/07 01:35 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Im sure we have discussed this before -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkUYBQz9iE

I think this is a much better model to work for Bunkai myself, ok I don't agree with all of the interpretation but it is more alive, dealing with more typical assaults and handling one situation at a time.

This kind of work I think does deliver what Med and Victor are talking about, well more so than my first 2 examples.




Actually, the video shown here I really don't like simply because the attacker's attacks are worthless.
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#365977 - 10/18/07 06:44 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hey Med,

erm ok then,

I guess until we see some video from you we shall have to imagine
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#365978 - 10/18/07 08:42 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Victor, Med,

how can the first 2 videos be described as anything other than bad habit forming? to explain away the video as misunderstood sounds very much like appologetics as oppossed to critical commentary. nothing much to misunderstand really - people just don't attack/respond with rigidity like that, therefore the method has little usefulness for any long-term consideration. it's not about getting beaten-up during training, it's about training with gradually introducing non-compliance. in the video, I just didn't see how that method facilitates that goal....but then, maybe that ISN'T their goal. if thats the case, then there really isn't much to talk about.


also, would you agree that if someone were to ONLY train similar to the drills shown for decades, that it would bring them no closer to understanding how things work when things get 'messy'?

Victor, I also don't like the term 'bunkai'. since it conjures up impressions of 'if they do this, then I do that' rigidity. but I can't think of another single term that means: "interactively applying 2-person principles which are extracted from kata".


lastly, and this is a worn-out disclaimer since it should go without saying by now, but maybe not... we only have the video itself as a point of discussion, opinions do NOT translate to: "if the video is bad then by implication the practitioners and/or their forms/styles are worthless."

it doesn't mean that at all. evaluation of the video is an evaluation of the video in and of itself. thought that would be clear by now, but arguments always seem to be extended beyond whats shown, so the disclaimer needs to be mentioned every single tireless time it seems.

If I wanted to take the position of second-guessing beyond whats shown in the video, that would be easy. I could simply suppose the people putting the video up wanted to hide their secrets, so they purposely produced a deceptively subpar drill.

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#365979 - 10/19/07 12:48 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, if one only worked this drill they would develop skill in working this drill. Now, the way I was taught to develop this drill into a fighting skill building exercise is quite a different matter.
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#365980 - 10/19/07 08:01 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

I guess I continue to see things a little differently. The 'patsai bunkai' drill is not one I would see as being used for decades. Perhaps part of the reason I really refuse to belive there is much Chinese influence in karate is that many chinese systems use tools and then discard them for more advanced tools when the student is ready to move on. For example beginning forms are discarded for more advanced forms and work on them does not continue because all of the basics they used are in the advanced forms so you don't need them. (of course nothing completely describes chinese systems)

I see the 'patsai bunkai' as a tool, to be used and then moved beyond. From what little I understand there does not seem to have been a formal course of kata technique application study in the Okinawan arts, so I would not assume what that school uses the 'tool' shown for, but I see it as a useful tool in a stage of a students development, to be replaced when the requisite skill level is developed.

There is no reason to assume it should be used for life.

Of course this contradicts many Okinawan systems that are locked into using the same tools. Randomly I'd suggest Goju's Kakie (spelling alas) drills+ as an example. If you compare it to Tai Chi's single push hands, there are further layers, double push hands, moving push hands, double push hands with extension, ta lu, san shou and more layers beyond.

If your assumption is this is all they train you might be correct, but I just see the tool, it place where I would put it in training and make no further extensions about it.

I always find it interesting how quick so many are to judge something without accepting that lack of understanding the context may be a big mistake. And I believe making bad assumptions is a quick way to end up on the bottom every time.

Geoff Gleason, the English Psychologist and Judo player suggested the best answer is to assume others are always better and more capable so you don't overassume and allow that to be in turn used against you.

I believe that is appropriate about others training. In my experience most good programs are decades of study with many layers.

BTW I understand patsai a bit. It would be interesting to spend a few years with you working on the drill shown and seeing if I could in the end make you see what I see. As I said I've had instructors using similar drilling in various systems and see where it leads in their scheme of training. Because of that I look at the performer's focus and transition and not the attack which I just see as lines of attack for the performer's focus choices. Just a tool that it appears I appreciate differently than your training has shown you.

It's what makes life interesting.

As of 'bunkai' I find it more consistent to verbally shape that experience several ways. First as kata technique application potential, the study of which is a building tool to underlying principles how a technique might be used. The accompanying term would be kata technique application realized, when you get to the point of somebody sticks something out in your direction, you break it off, or whatever the appropriate response is, no longer potential but a fully realized tool at your command.

I belive it is a much cleaner way of understanding the dozens of potentials in any technique, and if one's training makes it work its not potential, it's slam dunk.
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#365981 - 10/19/07 11:24 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Bricks don't hit back. That's true, but one has to be an idiot (or deserve to be one) to just hit bricks and do nothing else for the rest of your martial arts life.

BTW, if I do not know that Picaso was a famous artist and his paintings are selling for millions now, I would have thought his paintings were done by a congenital spastic.

And I'll never understand why people do so much push-ups at martial arts classes.
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#365982 - 10/20/07 12:06 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Hi Victor, I agree with your note about assumptions....however, if no fair assumptions can be made about videos of people neither one of us has trained with...then what the heck are we even discussing it at all for?

The fact is, we DO have to make assumptions in order to even discuss what each of us sees (or doesn't see). If we aren't willing to do that, then silence is the best option.

since I don't know that particular kata, but I do have ideas of how kata in general can be used as a training aide - I have superimposed that drill with my sensabilities of what kata training can be, and what I come up with is that, the video shows a basic vanilla cookie-cutter crappy demonstration drill.

the assumptions I made to form that image:

- passai is an intermediate-level classic kata (as oppossed to a fundamental kata like fukyugata - in gekisai and fukyugata, beginners kata, I would be more accepting of the benefit of block/punch type simplicity for short-term early-on training).

- a red/white stripe belt in some shorin systems is a very advanced rank...6th dan? which would be at least 20 years training?

so he couldn't have been showing beginners, since they don't know the kata yet. if he was showing intermediate students, then wouldn't they have already done the block/punch robot stuff and moved on from that material?


those were my assumptions. based on those, I wouldn't recommend this video to be a good example of how kata can be used as a training aide. my gut tells me this is as advanced they train for this kata. however, I never underestimate the fact that I could have my butt handed to me by someone doing robot karate, XMA or professional cheerleading for that matter. should that be a consideration when evaluating an anonymous video that someone chooses to make worldwide public?

I mean, if every conversation boils down to who can kick who's ass, then it's not much of a discussion about the material itself, is it?

on the flip-side, it's possible to be so politically correct by not discounting anything, we can talk without saying anything. Don't know about you, but I blurt out opinions full of assumption and bias - I'm honestly delighted when someone points out that I'm wrong and why they think I'm wrong....which is why I always enjoy your rebuttal posts.

now, I'm coming up there and kicking your ass to settle this thread. lol

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#365983 - 10/20/07 03:13 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:


- a red/white stripe belt in some shorin systems is a very advanced rank...6th dan? which would be at least 20 years training?

so he couldn't have been showing beginners, since they don't know the kata yet. if he was showing intermediate students, then wouldn't they have already done the block/punch robot stuff and moved on from that material?







My thoughts.

That just about sums up the videos. Block punch robot stuff
for demos with attacks that arent seen outside basic karate. I suppose if they put some reality in to it then maybe it would lose the as described karate modal.

Jude

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#365984 - 10/20/07 05:15 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

I mean, if every conversation boils down to who can kick who's ass, then it's not much of a discussion about the material itself, is it?




That is true, unless it is the material itself that gives the practitioner his ability to kick one's ass.
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#365985 - 10/20/07 05:21 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Ed,

My point about making assumptions isn't about how you make them on what you see, but about what else is in the program from watching a video. Very different points.

As to how we make assumptions its always a question about standards.

As to whether Patsai is an intermediate level classic kata, that also depends on ones assumptions. I don't distinguish kata in that way. Patsai in all it's variations and there are many, the 1977 book on Patsai showed 15 different versions, but I charaterize them more as 3 different themes, may be studied at any level, but as a tool chest it is as advanced as any kata.

But I'm afraid this discussion is reaching the point of each of our personal experiences which are vastly different.

I wonder if we're talking about the same thing. I just re-watched that patsai bunksi video and I didn't see any red and white belt.

BTW I'm not politically correct about what I see, it's just based on the experiences that I use training my students and myself.
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#365986 - 10/20/07 07:55 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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my mistake Victor, I was addressing this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvI5RHpInmA&mode=related&search=
which is Naihanchi, not Passai.

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#365987 - 10/20/07 08:17 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

That is true, unless it is the material itself that gives the practitioner his ability to kick one's ass.



easy there, killer. in effect what you are saying is if any non-kata trained fighter can kick your butt, then it makes your arguments for kata study null and void. whereas, I think arguments on a forum should just stand on their own.

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#365988 - 10/20/07 04:08 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

That is true, unless it is the material itself that gives the practitioner his ability to kick one's ass.



easy there, killer. in effect what you are saying is if any non-kata trained fighter can kick your butt, then it makes your arguments for kata study null and void. whereas, I think arguments on a forum should just stand on their own.




No, that's what you are saying. I am simply pointing out that the ultimate goal of any such exercise should be to develop skill in fighting. Now, you said that kicking butt doesn't matter, but in fighting I think that ultimately it does. And, in fact, I think your entire arguement is based on the premise that these excersises will not assist one in kicking butt. Now, if you found an instance where such drills did in fact give an individual the ability to improve their fighting wouldn't that put into doubt what you are saying as well? I have never been one to say that kata is the only way to learn to fight. In fact, I have never said that kata is the best way to learn how to fight. It is my assertion, however, that kata training(if done right) has the ability to improve a some people's ability to fight.
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#365989 - 10/20/07 05:36 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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you aren't following.

I'll summarize:

this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvI5RHpInmA&mode=related&search=

shows how one group trains kata. I think this method is ineffective for training good habits, but very effective at training bad ones. It was warned that we shouldn't assume that this group doesn't also train in other methods as well - and such training shouldn't be underestimated in what they practitioners can do (ie don't underestimate that because people train like this, that they aren't tough cookies)...which, while true, it's beyond the scope of evaluating JUST the video.

if you see a video of someone performing kusanku wearing a tutu and moving like a balerina, and you evaluate the video as being a joke...then you meet him in person, and he turns out to be a really effective fighter - are you then going to change your evaluation of the video and say that balerina kusanku is effective training?

I would hope not. so, what is your evaluation of this thread's video? do you train robotic naihanchi against multiple opponents? do you think it's an effective learning tool working towards building/refining good habits?

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#365990 - 10/20/07 07:03 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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I think I mentioned earlier I disagreed with this particular Naihanchi bunkai due to the ukes pretending to be hurt by the strikes. This type of training is not useful. The specific bunkai I am referring to is the Matsubayashi Passai bunkai because I have knowledge of that training method. However, if he is able to defeat opponents using skills he developed in this I would change my mind. If a ballerina karateka defeated me with ballet spins, jumps, and kicks, I may change my mind on that as well. For example, ballet may allow the fighter to develop flexibility, strength, and endurance to develop strong fighting skill. I personally live by the proverb, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating." I usually don't judge what people have been cooking until I have eaten a few of their meals.
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#365991 - 10/20/07 09:29 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Ed,

Just to clarify things the only video I was talking about was the one showing 'patsai bunkai' as a training drill in my estimation.

I do not talk about what I'm not interested in, which are most performances of Nihanchi(Naifanchi). But I would say this the video you're taling about is not demonstrating much.
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#365992 - 10/21/07 09:51 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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my appologies guys, I had the two video's switched up.

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#365993 - 10/21/07 07:37 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Ed,

With some reservations I'm going to suggest the following video clip makes my point that 'bunkai' as shown is a training tool.

The attacks shown on the whole aren't terribly threatening, but provide lines of attack to work against for focus.

The bunkai shown are mostly beginning tools, but I think the obvious skill of the instructor shows how this can be an effective beginning way to combine kata technique execution into a specific attacking sequence.

SHINSHINKAN KARATE DO : Karate Kata Bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obxC9bBzhq8

The system shown is interesting, the instructor teaches in Japan, but he studied this art in Argentina, which in turn was descended from Angi Uzeu of Isshinryu.

It is a cleanly executed variation on the Isshinryu theme.

These beginning 'bunkai' do not begin to touch how any of these techniques from several Isshinryu kata, beginning with Nainahchi(Naifanchi), but make my contention this is a step on the way. It never hurts to execute as the instructor is doing for the further application potential studies.

As an Isshinryu stylist this group does and does not represent what I do, but this shows an admirable technique execution ability.

pleasantly,
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#365994 - 10/21/07 09:23 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
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This "Compass Point Uke" method is to me like Kihon kata (Taikyuko Shodan) in that it is a great platform, anything can be built onto it but in its core original form it is almost worthless once you have a year or two.

Can I suggest that the stiff robotic movement is an issue of the chosen application and a different point to the usefulness of the training method?

By this I mean that the platform of the CPU method simply gives a clear and easily viewable demonstration of the testers kata and knowledge of the taught bunkai. If that taught bunkai is block from out of distance and punch air then that is a seperate matter.

If the problem is with the ritualised nature of the uke's movements then I would suggest that this is something that at higher levels would be changed.
I say this having been subjected to this method of working kata a few times. It starts out stiff and rigid as surface application is performed and gets more free flowing as deeper principles are practiced, so you can consider this post as evidence that in at least some cases this method is practiced with progression.

I would imagine that senior grades are shown performing the simplistic method because it is the fundament of the drill and it is being recorded to show that and not to show off.
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#365995 - 10/21/07 09:57 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
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As I don't really don't know the groups practices I can't say where these 'bunkai' sit on curricula. To me they seem a training tool, period.

I would say the seinor instructor showing the techniques is most definately the goal students are working for.
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#365996 - 10/21/07 11:05 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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I would also add that robotic stiff movements are the choice of the practitioner. I have never met any teacher of shorin instruct his or her students to be as stiff and robotic as possible to remove all semblance of smooth athletic movement.
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#365997 - 10/22/07 02:36 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Hi Medulant.

So are you saying that on the video it is a stepping stone so to speak? Then perhaps they would move on to applications that resemble the techniques done during the kata practice after establishing a basis for their use?

If I could draw a parrelel. Might sound idiotic but I have been watching/ analising some of Tank Abbot's fights.

In one of his fights I can see basic techniques found in BJJ( and more than likely other grappling styles) on the ground done with a variation. The problem is with out knowing these basics done in a somewhat boring and mundane way I wouldnt have recognised what he is actualy doing.

Is this what your argument is?

Jude

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#365998 - 10/22/07 03:37 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
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I am saying that the drills are used for several different reasons, none of which are the acutal fighting application of Shorin Ryu techniques. They condition the arms and legs, develop quick and agile movement, they develop basic distance control, and develop proper techinque. It is important to remeber that Matsubayashi is a precision striking art. These drills are designed to develop precise movements. Once precision, conditioning, and mobility under fire is gained then the fighting application of kata is explored.
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#365999 - 10/22/07 07:17 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Sorry Med, when replying I was thinking of my own experience in Shotokan, which as we know is always stiff and robotic
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#366000 - 10/23/07 07:35 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6772
so Jim, in the 2 videos you referenced at this thread's opening, do you see any usefulness or change your mind about that kind of training method?

personally, I don't see it as anything but bad habit forming. not even for a temporary of progressive study. why train 2-person drills that are conceptually far removed from later study?

what can they be possibly isolating to benefit? timing? mai? there are better ways to develop those skills without involving pre-arrainged long-range attacks. IMO.

just my opinion, but I'm seeing whats shown in the video as fairly useless training and bad habit forming. I would categorize both vids as examples of how NOT to train kata.

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#366001 - 10/23/07 07:42 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

I am saying that the drills are used for several different reasons, none of which are the acutal fighting application of Shorin Ryu techniques. They condition the arms and legs, develop quick and agile movement, they develop basic distance control, and develop proper techinque. It is important to remeber that Matsubayashi is a precision striking art. These drills are designed to develop precise movements. Once precision, conditioning, and mobility under fire is gained then the fighting application of kata is explored.




Thanks Medulant. I can see the use of that.

Quote:


Shonuff
Sorry Med, when replying I was thinking of my own experience in Shotokan, which as we know is always stiff and robotic





I am inclined to agree with that.Some shotokan seems to be . Basic wado was the same.
It would seem Itosu's teachings were never realy further explored other than from people like vince morris,
and Geoff Thompson etc.

Jude

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#366002 - 10/23/07 09:05 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

so Jim, in the 2 videos you referenced at this thread's opening, do you see any usefulness or change your mind about that kind of training method?

personally, I don't see it as anything but bad habit forming. not even for a temporary of progressive study. why train 2-person drills that are conceptually far removed from later study?

what can they be possibly isolating to benefit? timing? mai? there are better ways to develop those skills without involving pre-arrainged long-range attacks. IMO.

just my opinion, but I'm seeing whats shown in the video as fairly useless training and bad habit forming. I would categorize both vids as examples of how NOT to train kata.




Ed

I think I can see the skill building that is being used that others have spoken about.I suppose its a beggining. Maybe later the long range attacks are/should be duplicated? The blocks turn in to strikes but I dont study Medulants style so I cant comment.
As robotic as they look I think I can see the purpose.

Can I ask what you think the methods of teaching such things are?

Jude

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#366003 - 10/23/07 10:05 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

Can I ask what you think the methods of teaching such things are?



methods such as the drills shown in the videos? I think they are effective at developing bad habits. If as a visual demonstration, this kind of choreographing is not particularly imaginitive....it follows the 'arms as swords' mindset.

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#366004 - 10/23/07 10:50 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

Quote:

Can I ask what you think the methods of teaching such things are?



methods such as the drills shown in the videos? I think they are effective at developing bad habits. If as a visual demonstration, this kind of choreographing is not particularly imaginitive....it follows the 'arms as swords' mindset.





Yes it appears to but maybe its a part of a thought out progression. That said at some point progression should be made?
I would however like to see the progression if such a one exists.

It would seem that Vince Morris is also some what against the typical karate attack method judging by his videos.


Jude

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#366005 - 10/23/07 07:49 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Quote:

so Jim, in the 2 videos you referenced at this thread's opening, do you see any usefulness or change your mind about that kind of training method?

personally, I don't see it as anything but bad habit forming. not even for a temporary of progressive study. why train 2-person drills that are conceptually far removed from later study?

what can they be possibly isolating to benefit? timing? mai? there are better ways to develop those skills without involving pre-arrainged long-range attacks. IMO.

just my opinion, but I'm seeing whats shown in the video as fairly useless training and bad habit forming. I would categorize both vids as examples of how NOT to train kata.




I agree Ed. It's the same thing as showing and teaching kata as fighting with your back against a wall or taking on five opponents from different directions who take turns attacking you as a form of BUNKai. Then after they make brown belt, show them what it really is.
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#366006 - 10/24/07 04:54 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
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Quote:

I am saying that the drills are used for several different reasons, none of which are the acutal fighting application of Shorin Ryu techniques. They condition the arms and legs, develop quick and agile movement, they develop basic distance control, and develop proper techinque. It is important to remeber that Matsubayashi is a precision striking art. These drills are designed to develop precise movements. Once precision, conditioning, and mobility under fire is gained then the fighting application of kata is explored.





Why not practice those attributes WHILE practicing fighting applications?
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#366007 - 10/24/07 05:26 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
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Well Storm, for one to practice application drills at a realistic speed control and precision is needed. If you jump straight into application training then either people who lack such skill injure training partners or don't go at a speed necessary to get a good feel for the techniques. In addition sometime people are able to get by without such training early on in development, but are unable to reach higher levels of skill due to lacking a proper foundation and continue to muscle technique that should be relaxed, don't have technique refined enough to execute against higher skilled opponents, etc. Now, understand that this skill building training only occurs for the duration that is necessary to gain a specific skill set. For some it takes a month or two and for others it takes longer. For people who put in the necessary time on the deck they usually advance pretty quickly from the more static drills to more dynamic exercises which get more into fighting application of technique in kata.
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#366008 - 10/25/07 01:29 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Unyu Offline
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I agree with Jim and Ed on this one. That prearranged attack bunkai (kihon OR oyo) is crap. It guess it looks cool to kids and parents and Tokyo University trained JKA types though. Learning to navigate and counter or initiate in a multiple attackers scenario is a different skill-set acquired by years of well-rounded training and most especially with the understanding of "swimming" in-and-out and away from their power, adding confusion with good offense.

If you guys never learned to "walk" correctly then this concept will be foreign. Some folks in Matsumura Seito have had to learn to walk for weeks or even months. Some do it right from jump street. So how do you know where you stand on this salient kihon of old style karate, Indonesian Silat Shotokan, Nagamine-based training or not? That's where you might find the answers for multiple opponents in things like kata bunkai.

You can learn and learn from various sources and each time the source may not enahnce what you knew previously even if the instructor was the chuan fa, silat, karate super being of the Megaverse. A style like Matsubayashi is awesome compared to most systems, but in my estimation it is missing TOO much. A look at the kata and the way they are performed tells the initiated a lot. I have yet to see a Matsubayashi form execution (regardless of school or video source) which uses gammaku/koshi, recentered non-Frankenstein stepping in its performance. It is good intermediate karate from what I've seen as is most (98%) of the karate available, this goes for the "old style/seito" types too.

Again, all this lets me know what you guys really know. I don't ever need to see a vid. My ability to visualize your words is superb. I just wish everyone could be similar in their estimations of what people "prove" in their posts on these forums.

Helps me to know where everyone stands.
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#366009 - 10/25/07 02:26 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
medulanet Offline
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Well, Unyu, I too have seen a lot of the Matsubayashi out there. If you have seen what I have seen I am not surprised that you say what you say. However, what I do is different from what many Matsubayashi guys do, yet, at the same time it comes directly from Nagamine, through my teacher, and my own understanding of what I was taught. Imagine that. I use Nagamine's old school techniques and principles, but in more of a "whoop that ass" sort of way. But we've been through this before. I have HEARD a lot about Matsumura Seito, but seen very little. I would say that the nishime video was the best kata I have seen from that style, but no better than what I know Matsubayashi to be. I really don't post videos, as I know you don't either. But since we are comparing what we have personally seen and not what we personally do (since we both don't post videos) why don't you refer to one which represents what you know your style to be.

As far as bunkai real application training is all in fighting. Meaning there are no prearranged attacks. However, there is a form of training where specific attacks are launched to give a karateka the feel of how to "fit" a technique in against an specific attack.
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#366010 - 10/25/07 03:09 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
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Loc: Salem, OR
Quote:

Well Storm, for one to practice application drills at a realistic speed control and precision is needed. If you jump straight into application training then either people who lack such skill injure training partners or don't go at a speed necessary to get a good feel for the techniques. In addition sometime people are able to get by without such training early on in development, but are unable to reach higher levels of skill due to lacking a proper foundation and continue to muscle technique that should be relaxed, don't have technique refined enough to execute against higher skilled opponents, etc. Now, understand that this skill building training only occurs for the duration that is necessary to gain a specific skill set. For some it takes a month or two and for others it takes longer. For people who put in the necessary time on the deck they usually advance pretty quickly from the more static drills to more dynamic exercises which get more into fighting application of technique in kata.




Yeah but some of those drills use very illogical and redundant techniques. Why not minimise the "stuff"?
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#366011 - 10/25/07 03:14 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
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Koshi= The entire hip girdle
gammaku= power developed by using the koshi unique to okinwan karate.
Chinkuchi as I understand it is a connection between the entire body when producing power in okinwan karate.

Sorry medulant but it was the best explanation I could find.

Hi Unyu
My studies.
I have been doing some experimenting in this area. Would there be any chance you could further the conversation.

Nagamine was instructed to keep his karate/kata as pure as he could by his teachers/mentors at a time when karate was getting to much Japanese infleunce.

If the okinawans were infleunced by the chinese then are we looking at going back to the internal arts as a means of generating power if some people cant exhibit/ it has been lost/ this form of power generation?

I dont mean you guys with that comment by the way.

Jude

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#366012 - 10/25/07 03:29 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Stormdragon]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:







Yeah but some of those drills use very illogical and redundant techniques. Why not minimise the "stuff"?




Because sometimes we spend time doing stuff that we think is useless and it either has a point in the time of that persons training and there are more productive ways of doing it but we dont know that at the time because we were begginers.


Or we spend time doing training that was founded on teaching people discipline ready for military service and we dare not ask the high ranking sensie why we are doing something even though it has no use in actual fighting other than giving people who will never have a fight something to do.

Or we think it is stupid and redundant and dont do it and find out it wasnt stupid after all because now we have a hard punch which could have been harder had we developed our koshi in a certain manner and are having difficulty hitting the said target because we missed that part out of our training.

I get just as confused as most people.

Jude

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#366013 - 10/25/07 10:52 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi Ed,

wasn't ignoring you or anyone else, have been away from home for a few days and decided to 'not forum', a nice break.

in relation to this -

'so Jim, in the 2 videos you referenced at this thread's opening, do you see any usefulness or change your mind about that kind of training method?'

absolutly not as it doesn't meet any real needs for why I train,

I also just don't feel it has any function outside of forming bad habbits and practicing poor application of the art.

Thats not to say drills, of this type can't be done significantly better as I know they can - but I feel the effort involved is not worth it - better ways to train the art IMO.
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#366014 - 10/26/07 10:30 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
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I'm not completely understanding what the problem is with this method of bunkai practice is. Could someone explain it slowly and with small words for me please?

What I have so far is that having four people stand around you and attack one by one with a pre-arranged technique is bad. This is mostly because if people stand around you like that they plan on using rigid unrealistic techniques and you will respond in kind.

If this is so how would you guys then feel about people standing around you throwing more practical and realistic attacks and you responding in kind as you counter?
Would this improve the efficacy of this method of working bunkai?

If it does then might I suggest that the problem is less with the method and the level of stylisation employed by the school in question?

I can certainly see why practicing techniques with people as if you were performing a solo kata is not desireable, however, if I were taking small steps with a student with the aim of introducing practical stylisations while trying to help him remember the application sequence of a form, I might use those stiffer stylistic movements to mould him before tempering the rigidity with a bit of reality.
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#366015 - 10/26/07 08:11 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
David,

There is nothing particularily wrong with 'bunkai' nor is there anything particularily right with 'bunkai' as has been discussed. It's all situational.

If set 'bunkai' are used to develop to later layers of training, and are done with sharp focused attacks (not like those in most videos, including the competition ones) it is a tool with value, but just that, one of many tools that can be used.

In fact it is one of the major tools in many Chinese systems, but it is neither the end of the art, just one begining step, too.
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#366016 - 10/26/07 09:23 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Shonuff]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I'm not completely understanding what the problem is with this method of bunkai practice is. Could someone explain it slowly and with small words for me please?




Practicing in this manner is wrong. It is a poor method of understanding bunkai, or should I say misunderstanding.

Quote:

What I have so far is that having four people stand around you and attack one by one with a pre-arranged technique is bad. This is mostly because if people stand around you like that they plan on using rigid unrealistic techniques and you will respond in kind.





Not exactly. Having four people stand around you for kata bunkai is wrong. Just because the kata may go four ways, it's just a misinterpretation.

Bunkai is against one attacker, not several, we are not superhuman easily defeating four or five opponents.

Quote:

If this is so how would you guys then feel about people standing around you throwing more practical and realistic attacks and you responding in kind as you counter?
Would this improve the efficacy of this method of working bunkai?





Nope, still wrong.

Quote:




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#366017 - 10/26/07 09:27 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
BrianS Offline
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

There is nothing particularily wrong with 'bunkai' nor is there anything particularily right with 'bunkai' as has been discussed. It's all situational.





I disagree. There is such thing as bad training methods.

Quote:

If set 'bunkai' are used to develop to later layers of training, and are done with sharp focused attacks (not like those in most videos, including the competition ones) it is a tool with value, but just that, one of many tools that can be used




A hammer is a tool too,but I don't hit screws with it.

Quote:

In fact it is one of the major tools in many Chinese systems, but it is neither the end of the art, just one begining step, too.




Well ,if the Chinese do it!!

Bunkai is not a beginning step to me. It is a method of training and understanding kata.
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#366018 - 10/27/07 11:35 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Unyu Offline
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Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
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Quote:

Well, Unyu, I too have seen a lot of the Matsubayashi out there. If you have seen what I have seen I am not surprised that you say what you say. However, what I do is different from what many Matsubayashi guys do, yet, at the same time it comes directly from Nagamine, through my teacher, and my own understanding of what I was taught. Imagine that. I use Nagamine's old school techniques and principles, but in more of a "whoop that ass" sort of way. But we've been through this before. I have HEARD a lot about Matsumura Seito, but seen very little. I would say that the nishime video was the best kata I have seen from that style, but no better than what I know Matsubayashi to be. I really don't post videos, as I know you don't either. But since we are comparing what we have personally seen and not what we personally do (since we both don't post videos) why don't you refer to one which represents what you know your style to be.

As far as bunkai real application training is all in fighting. Meaning there are no prearranged attacks. However, there is a form of training where specific attacks are launched to give a karateka the feel of how to "fit" a technique in against an specific attack.




I have a gut feeling that you are an awesome fighter and karate guy. I don't doubt that and I have respected you and your opinion. The subtleties missing from a Maatsubayashi kata series, like Naihanchi, are quite apparent if you've done both. From outside appearances the forms are similar amongst the Shorin Ryuha, yet there are missing details which enhance the overall benefit of kata training. Goju and Uechi Ryu people know what I'm talking about. It's how you move, especially your hips, that gives you away. I guess it's the Tomari Te in the training methodology, I dunno.

I have only seen two Matsumura seito kata vids; one of Passai and the other is that low-quality video of Kusanku. The Passi guy was not very good. He did his kata like some of the Shorin Ryuha I've seen. School boyish. No refinement. The Nishimine vid was good. Just like Sensei Lindsey teaches it. If you look at it again there are a few points, that don't need high resolution or perfect focus or brightness, that are markedly different. Otherwise the contrast in that video sucks, you can't see a lot.

Our Seisan kata is unique among the Shorin systems. Our Chinto is fresh... What else you wanna know? Bunkai? On the web? Come on, man.

That prearranged bunkai stuff looks hella cool. Most Shotokan guys I've met can fight. They are tough. Obviously, doing that crap does something for you.

Me I believe in a more Kuntaw Silat or even Aikijutsu/Aikido theory behind navigating through multiple attackers.
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#366019 - 10/27/07 04:23 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
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Thanks for the reply Unyu. Really what I am looking for is specifically what you are referring you to when you talk about this stuff that is missing from Matsubayashi. For example you talk about although the video of Nishime is of poor quality you say that you can see this quality. Where is it, at what time mark? In addition, what is the benefit of this quality? Does it produce greater power than that of Matsubayashi? Does it aid better in the grappling techniques? Again, I agree that the two styles are not the same and do things in exactly the same manner, however, what is the advantage of this quality you are refering to? Do you see it in the video of Hohan Soken that is on the net. I know he was an old man in that vid and I also understand that as a karateka ages and advances they shave of extra movement and it may not be readily apparent. However, if there is no functional advantage then for me it does not mean much to simply do something that is more old school or more okinawan just to be able to say that it is. In addition, its easy to simply say that something is better with no real explaination as to why. That is also part of the problem with the internet, although we can get an idea, but I understand it is hard to do in text.
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#366020 - 10/27/07 10:18 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: BrianS]
Shonuff Offline
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Loc: London, UK
Quote:


Practicing in this manner is wrong. It is a poor method of understanding bunkai, or should I say misunderstanding.





Why? what is wrong with it?

Quote:

Not exactly. Having four people stand around you for kata bunkai is wrong. Just because the kata may go four ways, it's just a misinterpretation.





Isn't that a problem with the chosen bunkai as opposed to the method of practice?

Quote:


Bunkai is against one attacker, not several, we are not superhuman easily defeating four or five opponents.





I was not aware the practitioners thought they were learning to fight more than one person? I don't believe that that is the point.

So what you are saying is that if 4 people stand around you at compass points and attack one at a time then you must be training to fight multiple opponents (which is an inaccurate interpretation of kata bunkai)?

How about if you faced one and the other three sat on a bench and came up one after the other? Would that also be bad bunkai training?

I think too much is being read into this training method when actually it is just a way of including people in the fun.
This is how the method was presented to me.

You are in a school which includes bunkai on the syllabus. It is taught as kata1 move 1 = A, kata1 move 2 = B. Easiest way to remember the applications and where they fall in the kata is to practice them in sequence as you already know the kata. Doing that with one partner involves lots of resetting as partner changes position. Doing it with 4 partners around you means you can just go and each person takes a turn.

It can be quite a fun way to practice. I know fun doesn't go a long way to being a hard as nails fighter but
I like when its a part of the classes I'm in.

Just so it is clear the idea that you are fighting more than one person has never been raised while I've done this training method. Infact you're not supposed to be fighting anyone, you are practicing a kata interactively.

Also I've never seen this method used as more than a fun way to remember the standard bunkai for a form. One on one partner practice is still the mainstay of learning any type of applicable movement or technique.

That said I can't see a problem with having people stand at compass points and performing App 1 then app 2 then app 3 on each individual then switching, particularly in a mixed abiility group.
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#366021 - 10/28/07 05:19 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
Quote:



[I have only seen two Matsumura seito kata vids; one of Passai and the other is that low-quality video of Kusanku. The Passi guy was not very good. He did his kata like some of the Shorin Ryuha I've seen. School boyish. No refinement.




Hi

I dont quite get that one. How was he supposed to do the kata? `

Jude

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#366022 - 10/29/07 09:41 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Bryan,

I've been thinking about your comment "Our Seisan kata is unique among the Shorin systems." and I've been doing a little research on it.

I imagine your Seisan is similar to Kise Sensei's, they seem to match much of the notes you had made on Seisan quite a while ago.

Watching a video of Kise doing Seisan, while far from clear, at first glance looks just like a variation on the Seisan theme. Closer looking shows several other front front kicks that other Seisan kata don't use.

Cross reference that with Christopher Caille's article on Kise and kicking at http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=424 I would surmise that the whip kicks and those extra front kicks are essentially toe kicks into the legs.

The use of the toe kick is born out in the Toshikaki Gillespie video I have of Chinto, Gojushiho, Kusanku and Rohai. He does show some interesting 'bunkai' in his videos.

So perhaps the difference in your Seisan is use of the toe kicks? But I know some Matsubayshi use toe kicking in their Gojushiho Kata?

Last weekend I attended a seminar on Isshinryu by a friend, John Kerker who uses extesive kicks to the lower leg, knee joints, thighs (inner and outer) to conclude attacks when the interior of the attack has been opened. This sort of kicking is within the core of Isshinryu, but not as noticable in kata peformance, but from deeper application study.

Of course this is just logical analysis on my part. Whatever limb comes in ones direction, the goal of course is to neutralize it's use. One system's answer really is not better than anothers, its more important how they use the tools provided, IMO.

Perhaps you're right and your Seisan is more unique than other Shorin versions? I'm not sure that is independently verifiable.

Personally I have great respect for all Seisan traditions.

And toe kicks, well I personally use them from the Tam Tuie tradition, with my shoes on and in the range from the ankle to the knee, on the whole.
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#366023 - 10/29/07 10:54 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Victor,
I'm glad to hear that you had another opportunity to get together with Mr. Kerker. I know you enjoyed your previous time with him.

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#366024 - 10/29/07 11:43 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Unyu Offline
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Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

Quote:



[I have only seen two Matsumura seito kata vids; one of Passai and the other is that low-quality video of Kusanku. The Passi guy was not very good. He did his kata like some of the Shorin Ryuha I've seen. School boyish. No refinement.




Hi

I dont quite get that one. How was he supposed to do the kata? `

Jude




He had the gist of it, but details, subtle body movements and so on, are missing. He's just running through the basic form without regard for refinement, timing, hip thrust, failure to adjust his stepping. He's stiff and shoulder locked. These are things you wouldn't recognize unless you did a style that was not patent. Shotokan people would have the least idea what it was I was speaking of. 9 out of 10 Shorin Ryu folks have no clue as to what I'm speaking of. They do their kata just as superficially.

That cat was not good, but I do expect the untrained eye to think it was perfectly fine. See, even a lot of Seito guys are sub par too. It's just the "Law of Averages", knowhatImean?! Of course not...


Edited by Unyu (10/29/07 11:51 PM)
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#366025 - 10/30/07 09:22 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jude, You are correct, Kissaki (Vince Morris's organisation) tends not to work/practice against the old Shotokan oizuki attack much except maybe at a basic level because it is an unlikely attack and it is relatively slow compared to closer attacks even when done by the quickest. Hooks, grabs and hooks, short range straight punches and headbutts and some locks are the usual things defended against.

B.

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#366026 - 10/31/07 06:32 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:




He had the gist of it, but details, subtle body movements and so on, are missing. He's just running through the basic form without regard for
Quote:


refinement,




Huh? could you explain further? If I perform seoinage for a grading it is as per taught. If I do the same throw on some one with a gi in randori its subject to making it work given
those particuler circumstances with a lot of variations.
If moves in kata reflect certain techniques or are practicing principles then I presume the basics would be as per the throw done at grading?

Quote:


They do their kata just as superficially.

That cat was not good, but I do expect the untrained eye to think it was perfectly fine. See, even a lot of Seito guys are sub par too. It's just the "Law of Averages", knowhatImean?! Of course not...




Problem is with out knowing what he should be doing as regards what the kata is meant for most people would be at a loss.

So can I ask ,
What is the goal of that kata?
What is it aimed at? What are the techniques available?

I think I can see some elbow destructiuons in there,chin na stlye.

In order to fully understand the negative comments then I think the whole kata should be analised and discussed.Step by step otherwise no one understands anything.

Jude.

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#366027 - 10/31/07 06:38 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Barad]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Jude, You are correct, Kissaki (Vince Morris's organisation) tends not to work/practice against the old Shotokan oizuki attack much except maybe at a basic level because it is an unlikely attack and it is relatively slow compared to closer attacks even when done by the quickest. Hooks, grabs and hooks, short range straight punches and headbutts and some locks are the usual things defended against.

B.




personly I think the old /basic methods were practiced for many reasons. E.G

Basic punch block kick conditioning etc while at the same time
practicing some of the mechanics of basic joint locks found in chin na.

Seems to be a lot of common body mechanics.


Jude

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#366028 - 10/31/07 06:44 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
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Oizuki might be an overly rigid or stylised structure, but it does capture the essence of a real attack i.e. it is totally commited and uses the full body weight. I think it is a perfectly good tool against which to develop the basics of dealing with a real strike.
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#366029 - 10/31/07 07:02 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

Oizuki might be an overly rigid or stylised structure, but it does capture the essence of a real attack i.e. it is totally commited and uses the full body weight. I think it is a perfectly good tool against which to develop the basics of dealing with a real strike.




I can see that but after basics more techiques might be practiced against such as barad said. This doesnt in some cases happen.

Jude

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#366030 - 10/31/07 09:00 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
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True.
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#366031 - 11/03/07 12:44 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Unyu Offline
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Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Jude:
Are you asking me to detail the applications in Passai Sho? That can't be done with any real clarity on the web. Just know you can watch a person perform kata and glean a lot about that person. After the kata becomes automatic, without much thought invloved (reflexive), the "umuiri" will be present in their execution. You will know that there is something special about how they have been trained and currently train.

You can watch 10 JKA Shotokan-ka and they all do the kata exactly the same way. Regardless of whether or not the principles make biomechanical and practical sense, the students, mudansha and yudansha, tend to mimic versus adapt to their bodies and minds. "Embusen begins here, and ends here, in this same exact spot". Ridiculous and not how true Okinawan Karate kata are trained. That in itself will dilute a form significantly.

The same can be said for someone, no matter the amount of diligence involved, who does Matsumura Seito with the intent of copying their sensei. It's really not their fault. Even a very accomplished yudansha may not be the best teacher. You will see the frame minus the subtleties.

I mentioned several factors, minor or unrecognizable to most, yet you want to ask me about shoulder throws and the such? Hand placement, arm angle, knee bend, foot alignment, distance of stances, punching form, etc. need to be trained to the "T". Proper kata is the MOST important aspect of real karate training. PERIOD.

Kata is not only about fighting. It is much, much more. If you use kata for bunkai, then you are missing the point, and in fact forms training done in this manner is the norm nowadays, and is faulty. Hence, my propensity to lump all the karate people I encounter online together. Some is better than others and most is Hope Ryu, in mine and others opinions. Call me a "troll", but it's just the truth. Don't cry dry your eye, and look for something that is "REALER"!!!

You want to understand why I say what I say about all these vids I see here? Just know that even a well-trained Seito guy who is a mod on this site has heard the same things from me via PM. He asked me what I thought of his form and I told him. I don't think that he trains in the same manner as I did/do so he didn't quite understand what I was talking about, instead stating he was doing "Honto Kata". Okay. Whatever. If his kata looks like that in anyway it is/ he is missing sooooo much. I could add even more "o's", but I won't.

Ed has also asked me to evaluate his kata (vid) in the past. I did. He too didn't understand what I was trying to relay to him. Everyone wants to be validated. Your experiential base has to be wider. The net doesn't allow me to show you why anatomically, physics included, that back leg should never be straightened.

You know I don't really care what anyone thinks about my forms because I train in them with true, original intent. I don't need anyone's opinion about them on here, because you guys don't really have a clue anyway.

This type of attitude creates rifts. I know this, but I can only tell it like it is. You butter each others buns. I'm here to make you think and rethink. So when someone like BrianS who hates me because I joked him about his "-ectomy", BTW I am happy that you are well, dismisses all I say because he thinks I'm a troll, I just laugh because the bigger picture (real karate) is being overlooked. Your loss bro, not mine.

Anyway Ed didn't "get" my critique. So now you guys can "blahbbady-blah-blah" about hope or whatever training you do. If you get good results and answers that have been empirically tested in chaos then what you're doing is right. You're still seeking. Good. Hope you get as lucky as I did. It took me 14 years of searching.

All of you do know that the real karate types NEVER, EVER get on these sites?! Those supposed "Masters" that do are not thought of very highly by the real stylists. You should thank me everytime I give any comment, because although they won't tell you, the real Okinawan Karate guys think EXACTLY like me. They just won't express it. It's a waste of their time. You guys are a waste of their time.

I agree, it usually is, but I still feel that some of you deserve an inkling of a hint. I want karate to be respected, so I make everyone reevaluate and hopefully it will cause some to adapt and make their karate "real".

Still, my "diagnoses" (whatever Ed or others who like to talk out their arses would say) compels me to tell you guys the hardliner's perspective. The only time I ever come back to this place is when someone "beckons" me with some ignorant statement, or invokes my name by asking me a question.

I am not a liar, and am not operating under multiple guises for the helluv'it. I changed my name initially, because the site crashed multiple times and when it came back up didn't recognize me. Then BrianS and Kogie and others got their panties in a twist because they were losing arguments so they used their power and influence to ban me.

This site suffers without someone like me on here. It is so boooooooring. There are very few nonpatent answers, and all the diplomacy is fruitless for valid discourse.

That's all. BTW Oldman, I use to hand kids their asses in their backbacks. After the age of 7 I never lost a fight being a military brat, I didn't worry about a place at the lunch table and in fact often "ate the school bully's lunches". What being a brat did teach me was that most people are average and you shouldn't expect that much from them. They just have such limited capacity. I am well educated, of sound body and mind, have the BEST job ever, am rich, have a beautiful, intelligent wife, wonderful family and friends and am very, very happy. The only qualms I have are that Rock-n-Roll has not died yet, everyone wants to have stupid people with false confidence lead them, that people believe that God is a man or that they can even comprehend what God is, that most fools don't have a clue as to what real Hip Hop culture OR karate is and that even most professionals are very mediocre.

If you guys only knew the real Bryan, but you never will... Oh well.

BTW you want bunkai? Do the forms right first. Otherwise, whatever bunkai you make up is valid, I (or should I say "you") guess...
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Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#366032 - 11/03/07 01:09 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Bryne?
Unyu
Judes thoughts and suggestions only if you accept them.
Man your a good guy when you want to be but please, please, please lighten up?
How about from now on we dispense with the who did what routine?
Stop winding people up one here ? Or at least keep it within reason
You make good sense when you want to.
Train off your aggression before you come on here
And yes it could be boring when your not here but it is also
not boring when you post on here but stop the hell fire stuff.
And try not to give me that cr8p your not bothered if you get banned.
Its 5.15 am here and Im off to work soon. I will read what you wrote above in more detail later.
Huh?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/03/07 01:19 AM)

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#366033 - 11/03/07 01:18 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
oh you mean this evaluation, Bryan... from 2 years ago video, on a basics kata and only 1 year of Matsubayashi?

Quote:

soopascience writes:

Regarding Fugyugata San: I thought your performance of it looked solid. It's what I remeber from my days in Matsubayashi. Our posture in Shorinkan and Matsumura Orthodox tends to be a little more centered. Nagamine's style of Matsubayashi doesn't include a Fugyugata San; you must practice Ueshiro's subsystem. Your transitions were quick, but at times you tend to not be rooted when punching, meaning your back heal is often off the ground slightly. Some of your punches were slightly extended, in other words it looked in that video like you were reaching at times. All that stuff beyond your centerline leaves you off-balance to the front; not good versus a grappler. Your stances were slightly unnatural, they looked a little long. Your upper block was at too flat an angle to deflect a technique.

I thought your crispness and speed were good. You didn't rush things too much and you sat down on most of your techs with the exception of what I mentioned previously. Your front kicks were high, but that's okay depending upon the form and the system. I think everything looked pretty good, but it kind of reinforced my impression of Matusbayashi as a true Shorin system. I think it looks quite a bit different from the more Shuri Te influenced Shorin Ryuha. I can definitely see the Tomari influence in it (and in other styles like Seibukan and Shorinji Ryu) especially with the long stances and high chamber which seems very awkward and unnatural. Even chambering effects ones balance. Relaxation will come with doing the forms more and more. It actually looked a lot like Shito or Shotokan to me, especially with the straight stepping versus recentering steps.

Hope I wasn't too harsh. They're just opinions.


Added on Jul. 26 2006




from here: http://www.esnips.com/web/EdMorrisskata
http://www.esnips.com/web/Goju-kata

I'll give you the long stances (thats how the place taught it, and it felt un-natural), but the straight leg? where did you see that? The only reason I didn't take your advice to heart is because shortly after that video was taken, I no longer trained Shorin.

plus, without YOU having a video up, how do I know you aren't just a theorizing, 400lb armchair judge that has seen alot of youtube? why would I hang on your every bodiless word of critique? I asked a bunch of people at the time to take a peek, and you happened to be in happy-mode, so I asked you too....hardly anything to get all self-important about.

fact is, you can say all you want, but thats all it is: words with no substance. you've helped with introducing terms and pinted towards areas of interest...but beyond that, you are just another anonymous voice in the crowd saying "I know the right way".

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#366034 - 11/03/07 01:25 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Judes thoughts and suggestions only if you accept them


Here is a chance to answer with out going nuts???
So if you have posted a reply and gone nuts here is your chance to edit it???

huh?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/03/07 01:26 AM)

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#366035 - 11/03/07 01:55 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Once again, sound and fury, signifying nothing, sharing even less.

Talk about boring.

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#366036 - 11/03/07 06:39 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

that most fools don't have a clue as to what real Hip Hop culture OR karate is and that even most professionals are very mediocre.




Priceless!!!!

Bryan, I feel like we know each other from all the time we have had here on the site. So I can say, earnestly and without malice, that you are a giant cock. I hope you don't get kicked off the site, because........uh..........hold on, it's coming to me..........


Nevermind.

_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#366037 - 11/03/07 08:52 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I will say that to some hip hop and karate are their way of life. And I will also say that both share commonalities in the way that they have both sold out too many times for the almighty dollar. In addition, it seems that what the media puts out there as representations of both is a severe misrepresentation of what they can and should be.
_________________________
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#366038 - 11/03/07 10:39 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I must say I have no idea what hip-hop is, nor did I have run ins with bullies as a kid, much less worry spending time talking negatively about anyone or anything.

If I don't care for something I'm not going to spend time railing on it, especially when I want someone who really wants to do it to so much do it. I'd rather have them training in a way I don't prefer, truly.

Some how true confessions (if they are true) and working to run down people and styles is irrelevant to karate.

Of course that is an Okinawan obsession for they seem to be very cagey in their comments about others too.

If anything Bryan has given me reason to take a much closer look at the material I've gathered on the Seito system. BTW interesting how I find touches of Kise's seisan in today's review of Oyata's seisan and Odo's seisan too. Just an observation.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#366039 - 11/03/07 10:40 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

The only qualms I have are that Rock-n-Roll has not died yet, everyone wants to have stupid people with false confidence lead them, that people believe that God is a man or that they can even comprehend what God is, that most fools don't have a clue as to what real Hip Hop culture OR karate is and that even most professionals are very mediocre.




I didn't know you were a theologian too! If you want to take the same position as St.Thomas in his commentary on Boethius' De Sancta Trinitate regarding Tamquam ignotum thats fine, just not on the forum. Religious discussion is prohibited.

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#366040 - 11/04/07 07:07 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: oldman]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Rock N Roll dying? No one can destroy the metal!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_KFAE8tXF8

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#366041 - 11/04/07 12:30 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude:
Are you asking me to detail the applications in Passai Sho? That can't be done with any real clarity on the web. Just know you can watch a person perform kata and glean a lot about that person. After the kata becomes automatic, without much thought invloved (reflexive), the "umuiri" will be present in their execution. You will know that there is something special about how they have been trained and currently train.

You can watch 10 JKA Shotokan-ka and they all do the kata exactly the same way. Regardless of whether or not the principles make biomechanical and practical sense, the students, mudansha and yudansha, tend to mimic versus adapt to their bodies and minds. "Embusen begins here, and ends here, in this same exact spot". Ridiculous and not how true Okinawan Karate kata are trained. That in itself will dilute a form significantly.

The same can be said for someone, no matter the amount of diligence involved, who does Matsumura Seito with the intent of copying their sensei. It's really not their fault. Even a very accomplished yudansha may not be the best teacher. You will see the frame minus the subtleties.

I mentioned several factors, minor or unrecognizable to most, yet you want to ask me about shoulder throws and the such? Hand placement, arm angle, knee bend, foot alignment, distance of stances, punching form, etc. need to be trained to the "T". Proper kata is the MOST important aspect of real karate training. PERIOD.

Kata is not only about fighting. It is much, much more. If you use kata for bunkai, then you are missing the point, and in fact forms training done in this manner is the norm nowadays, and is faulty. Hence, my propensity to lump all the karate people I encounter online together. Some is better than others and most is Hope Ryu, in mine and others opinions. Call me a "troll", but it's just the truth. Don't cry dry your eye, and look for something that is "REALER"!!!

You want to understand why I say what I say about all these vids I see here? Just know that even a well-trained Seito guy who is a mod on this site has heard the same things from me via PM. He asked me what I thought of his form and I told him. I don't think that he trains in the same manner as I did/do so he didn't quite understand what I was talking about, instead stating he was doing "Honto Kata". Okay. Whatever. If his kata looks like that in anyway it is/ he is missing sooooo much. I could add even more "o's", but I won't.

Ed has also asked me to evaluate his kata (vid) in the past. I did. He too didn't understand what I was trying to relay to him. Everyone wants to be validated. Your experiential base has to be wider. The net doesn't allow me to show you why anatomically, physics included, that back leg should never be straightened.

You know I don't really care what anyone thinks about my forms because I train in them with true, original intent. I don't need anyone's opinion about them on here, because you guys don't really have a clue anyway.






Hi Bryan.

Ok so instead of all this name calling and mud slinging what about the katas you guys analised in the past are gone over again?

Poss bring the thread back up?

Hasnt it been said that kata should trained looked at then trained again?

Just a suggestion and and it might be more informative than all this "he said this" and "he said that" that seems to be going on.

Jude.

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#366042 - 11/05/07 02:15 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I jsut saw this from another discussion group, youtube has the Kise Seisan that was floating around the nets several years ago. If you search for Kise Seisan Kata on YouTube you can see what was being discussed back on page 7 of this discussion.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#366043 - 11/05/07 03:41 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Victor Smith]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Victor,
Nice find. If you look at the posters other video selections Ron Lindsey's HakuCho Dai is on there also. It's pretty amazing. In one collection you find two of the three people in the world that do real karate.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tjimande

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#366044 - 11/05/07 03:47 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: oldman]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I am quite confused about this. Hopefully, some clarification will be forthcoming from others with experience.

Quote:

Victor,
Nice find. If you look at the posters other video selections Ron Lindsey's HakuCho Dai is on there also. It's pretty amazing. In one collection you find two of the three people in the world that do real karate.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tjimande



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#366045 - 11/05/07 03:52 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I have heard a lot of great things about this man from many Matsumura Seito types. However, going off this video alone

http://youtube.com/watch?v=naCud4qstac

I am thoroughly disappointed. I HOPE this is a simple demonstration of sequence and general techniques of this kata, because it seems poorly executed buy a below average karateka. If this is Hohan Soken's best student then it appears to lack the depth that the karate I know has. I know Mr. Cyr has an opinion. I would like to hear what he has to say about Kise's kata.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#366046 - 11/05/07 07:40 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Med,

I think its safe to say that Kise Sensei's performance is perhaps the standard for most Okinawan seniors, more a walk through than a high level performance.

I've met Kise Sensei several times and I doubt that performance is much more than that, just a shell performance.

I've learned to look beyond what is shown, in a positive light, for many times many other Senior's kata performances fit the same bill.

The most obvious exceptions are Hiagonna Morio, a few others and especially the Okinawan Uechin Seniors. All of whom seem to be speaking to me, here's my best stuff, now bring it on.

Just an observation, but I find Kise's performance interesting in the Seisan-ness involved.

More pertinate I've seen all the books credit Seisan as a Soken Sensei kata, but I've also seen Seito discussion about how Seisan was not one of Soken's kata.

If you're talking about the Okinawan arts and want to find simple answers you're likely on the wrong planet.


Edited by Victor Smith (11/05/07 07:42 PM)
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#366047 - 11/05/07 11:41 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: medulanet]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

I have heard a lot of great things about this man from many Matsumura Seito types. However, going off this video alone

http://youtube.com/watch?v=naCud4qstac

I am thoroughly disappointed. I HOPE this is a simple demonstration of sequence and general techniques of this kata, because it seems poorly executed buy a below average karateka. If this is Hohan Soken's best student then it appears to lack the depth that the karate I know has. I know Mr. Cyr has an opinion. I would like to hear what he has to say about Kise's kata.




It's an average performance at best. Actually I like the Passai kata vid better ! That Kusanku clip is very good for sure, but the video quality is horrible.

As for Kise, it does look like there is very little kime in his execution of Seisan. Not that you need a Kendo term to enhance your Okinawan Karate, but you do. I will say that the movements are exactly as I learned them, but the performance is lackluster. I definitely think that Lindsey looks better doing it. Maybe the fact the Kise was a Shorinji Ryu guy plays into this.

One thing I have noticed about many Seito practitioners is that they use a lot of arm and very little compression, or whipping movement of the hips. A very salient aspect of this brand of Shorin Ryu is the use of rising and falling power. At least the way my brother and I were taught. IOW bending/flexing the knees when striking to the body and a slight upward (extension) movement of the knees/body when striking (punching) high. I don't see that in any of these vids except for a little in the Kusanku video.

That Hakucho vid of my sensei was done about 20 years ago. That form is used more for "chi-gong" than for fighting techs. Lindsey Sensei has gotten exponentially better as the years have passed. Working with various other shifu and sensei has helped his karate evolve, plus he continually trains and searches for better ways to do things. For 40 years he has never stopped. Still, his kata looked good albeit less relaxed than it now does. For a 6'3", 250# guy he is really quick and incredibly strong. Unlike most older sensei he keeps in great shape too.

I have seen and trained with many styles and stylists. The Seito guys are no better than the rest, and in fact with the exception of about 6 or 7 guys who are all Yondan or above, most of them looked very normal. The stylist does contribute to the efficacy of a fighting style for sure. Most folks just are not that good at fighting. What makes Matsumura Orthodox better than most are Hohan Soken's principles. They are based on very sound logic and physics compared to the other Shorin systems I've encountered. The problem is it is hard to convey these aspects and ingrain them at the same time. It takes years and years of training to "unlearn" a lot of bad habits.

I guess what I'm getting at with this bunkai thread is that if your kata is so remarkably different than the original Shuri-, Naha- and Tomari-Te forms then how do you figure out what the bunkai is? Were these forms made to combat multiple opponents or to impart much more? I think that's why I gravitated towards the older systems. I do believe in "adaptation", but as I've said before not in change for the sake of changing.

One last thought, Kise's kata looked, well, mediocre, but what I've heard from those who trained under him was that he was a real tough guy. A real street fighter who they witnessed countless times take on a dojo challenge with the end result being the challenger dragged, KTFO out of the dojo when things were done. So in this instance at least, you can't look at kata performance and know how good of a fighter he is. He was "cock-diesel" according to many.

His kata changed from the early 1970's to become more simplistic and routine in its training. He stopped teaching the real stuff in the late 70's early 80's. That is why many of his students broke away from him in the 1980's.

Of Kise's and Kuda's American students Greg Ohl, Ron Lindsey, James Coffman and Dr. Charles Tatum have been identified as being the most skilled and able to tranfer Soken's art with the original intent and techs virtually intact.

I will say that from my experience with Shorin Ryu, with Seibukan types and other Kyan influenced stylists, the Chibana-Ha types, the Matsubayashi guys and of course the Soken-Ha practitioners, the guy who has impressed me the most both in knowledge and practical ability is Ron Lindsey. Like Kise he is an awesome fighter. Unlike what I saw in Kise's kata vid, he is also an exemplary font of kata skill and knowledge.

Ron Lindsey does do seminars at any school who will have him and his organization is not exclusive to Seito. It has Kyokushinkai, TKD, TSD, Matsubayashi, Kobayashi, Seibukan, Shito Ryu, Shuri Ryu, Shotokan and Naha Te dojo in it. Everyone should check out what he has to offer before the guy gets too old. It will be an eye-opening experience to say the least.

Lindsey said an interesting thing to my brother and I once. He said that with hard training and a decent mind and physical skills, the most a karate-ka can expect to attain is a 4 or 5 on a scale of 1-10. A 6 is rarer. He said that my brother and I could easily become 7, 8's or even 9's and that a 10 was unheard of. No one except Soken was a 10. This was early in our training. We received our yudansha grade in about 12 months. Most take 3 years or more if they really, really devote themselves. This gave us an idea of what type of folks practice karate, real or not .

I don't want you guys to take any of this as arrogance, it's just what I know and have been told and have observed. So if you take a mediocre system being "conveyed" by a mediocre teacher to very average students you get, well, something average AT BEST. This is why I tend to call most MAs <traditional or otherwise> "less-than'real". Great karate from a great sensei will make you pretty darn good. The problem is most folks aren't privy to this kind of karate because it really exists in very rarified air.

So you guys debate bunkai and I question whether or not what you do is even a practical interpretation of a form. I mean why shoudln't I? Most karate I've seen just is not any good for anything except role playing like Civil War reenactment. The forms are usually unrealistic and far from their point of origin where the bunkai application was known, but now how can it be with a dilution of a dilution? Stances are "unscientific", fist forms biomechanically unsound -or- maybe I should say not as anatomically sound as they could be, there is too much crossing-up of the arms, the turns are done at 90 vs. 45 degrees... The list goes on and on.

So is what we're doing bunkai or just bunk made up by some guy? I dunno, but good luck with it all.

Great travels with few travails...

BTW oldman, I'll never discuss religion because it ain't worth talking about. It has and always will create more problems than it solves. "Divide and conquer" ! Later...
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#366048 - 11/06/07 01:09 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Well Bryan, since you did mention me twice I feel compelled to respond.


Quote:

So when someone like BrianS who hates me because I joked him about his "-ectomy", BTW I am happy that you are well, dismisses all I say because he thinks I'm a troll, I just laugh because the bigger picture (real karate) is being overlooked. Your loss bro, not mine.





I don't hate anyone. Infact,I never use the word. I don't recall you ever making fun of my lefticle either. That has never bothered me. you are a troll because of your extreme superiority complex.

Quote:

I am not a liar, and am not operating under multiple guises for the helluv'it. I changed my name initially, because the site crashed multiple times and when it came back up didn't recognize me. Then BrianS and Kogie and others got their panties in a twist because they were losing arguments so they used their power and influence to ban me.




Hogwash homeskillet!!!! I never lost an argument to you!!

Please tell us lowly school boy doing karate wannabe's how things should be. We will forever be in your debt.

Troll.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#366049 - 11/06/07 01:17 AM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Unyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I have the Hohan Soken DVD "Life of the Grandmaster" -you and others have probably watched it...
Quote:

SYNOPSIS

Hohan Soken - The Life of a Grand Master This historic video is a documentary on Hohan Soken, 10th Dan and founder of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu Karate. It includes “Newly Discovered- Lost Footage” of Hohan Soken. It includes a biography of Soken Sensei detailing his life in Karate Do. It also shows rare historic footage of Soken Sensei performing various kata including: Naihanchi 1-3, Seisan, Chinto, Kusanku, Gojushiho, Rohai, Tsuken bo, Kama Kusari and Hakutsuru, the closely guarded secret white crane kata of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu. Additionally, the video includes rare footage of some of Soken Sensei’s top students performing in Okinawa in the 1960s and much more! This documentary style video is a piece of history and brings the past to life! It preserves the teachings of a highly respected Okinawan Grand Master whose legacy was to bring karate from a bygone age into the modern era. A must for the serious martial arts collector.




as far as what is shown on there of his top students during the 60's (which is prior to when you say things started getting washed out), I didn't see anything other than your typical vanilla Itosu shorin-ryu type movement that you berate. It's the type of movement that speaks as students not knowing the application of it's principles or body dynamics.
I reserve giving opinion on the Hohan Soken himself kata footage, since he looked quite old. we can only hope to move as well at that age - but it's difficult, if not impossible to see the dynamic which seniors are demonstrating with a slow step-thru....and maybe his students were just imitating the movement of their aged master.


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#366050 - 11/06/07 05:11 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Well at least the hellfire stuff is getting less from most guys.

Why does it seem such a big secret with kata?
If the kata has a purpose why cant that be discussed?
I am a student so it might be up to some of you guys with the knowledge to perhaps get a kata.
Dissect it
Techniques
Principles
Reason for it being formulated
Then discuss it?

Maybe?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/06/07 05:17 AM)

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#366051 - 11/06/07 03:47 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Jude, as a non-combatant, not-really-enthused-about-kata kinda guy....well, it is never the discussion, it is and always will be about HOW it is discussed.

If nothing else, for a non-kata-nut like me, I did enjoy the fireworks and show.

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#366052 - 11/06/07 05:22 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: butterfly]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude, as a non-combatant, not-really-enthused-about-kata kinda guy....well, it is never the discussion, it is and always will be about HOW it is discussed.

If nothing else, for a non-kata-nut like me, I did enjoy the fireworks and show.




I see your point.
But you were a combatant once werent you?

Jude

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#366053 - 11/06/07 05:45 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

But you were a combatant once werent you?





LOL. Only in things that I have a small and passing knowledge of or in which I detect some misuse of logic where I can't follow along and want some more illumination.

If people are intentionally obfuscating their contentions with pointing fingers, name calling, or ad hominem attacks that side track the discussion, then I might jump in. Otherwise, I am generally too ignorant to know...and too stupid to care.

In this case, I am following the thread out of curiosity since I am not vested in traditional MAs and have only cursory experience with them. In that regard, I would like to see what all the hub-bub is about. If I can find some curious or enlightening tid bits discarded in the conversation, then it was worth the read.

I do have to admit that there is more than a bit of sanctimonious attitude spilling out of some of these posts. But occasionally, this is what greases the wheels to help drive these threads along. As an agnostic to the old world religion of traditional karate, I just don't know if many of these things deserve the conviction that they receive. So here I sit, peeking in.

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#366054 - 11/06/07 05:50 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: butterfly]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi

Looks like we got our wires crossed. I thought you meant combatent as in you took part in competition.

Not combatent as in on the forum.

Jude

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#366055 - 11/06/07 05:52 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ok...don't really compete in competitions either.

So no, not a combatant in any sense of the word. Just a dusty old guy who hobbles around for the most part.

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#366056 - 11/06/07 06:56 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: butterfly]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Well ths way to question whether 'bunkai' or application analysis has value is simple, will the technique execution drop the attacker (or other appropriate response).

Whether original 'bunkai' from a lineage, or whether the techniques logical analysis.

The problem with analysis is it still is just a starting point. at times it will suggest more, but at other times more work is needed.

Kata represent a technique warehouse, depending on your orientation a fininte amount of techniques or a humongous amount of techniques.

But the reality is if you can drop one, then all other opinions about its worth are worthless.

There is a value to layers of instruction but if must point to the simple truth, the use of a technique is to end a fight situation. It takes more than just kata analysis to do that, you have to work on the underlying principles.

For example when should the strike be soft, not hard, to hit harder. or how can a reverse punch drop anyone 100% of the time.

The answers are in Karate, but not directly the kata, but practice and more practice.

Victor
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#366057 - 11/06/07 08:09 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Victor,

In that case I agree. Just that the testimonials and the late night infomercial approach to "old school" Okinawan Karate gets a little old when only those in the choir are singing Hallelujah. The qualifier is that "Your results will vary."

Not to say kata is not a bastion for the assorted trade secrets of many an ancient karate fighter, but that it may also be just an assortment of ideas that are rather more universal (than not) and which are trained by others in different ways to reach the same goals...and by those who have little to no truck with Okinawan karate.

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#366058 - 11/07/07 07:51 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: butterfly]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I just ran across these clips:

Shito-ryu seisan bunkai

Seisan Shito Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouVbKOI1gQo

Seisan Bunkai 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF480c4JKXo
Seisan Bunkai 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtPl48yPUa0
Seisan Bunkai 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3ohdgj2cSE
Seisan Bunkai 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwtTaXxlAV8
Seisan Bunkai 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGhYe6n0Zbw

And for the Shotokan crowd

NIJUSHIHO le kata , le bunkai , la réalité par Didier Lupo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7naDDrWeF0
KARATE bassaï-daï kata bunkai défense par Didier Lupo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzYTDQNHVXk
KANKU-DAÏ BUNKAÏ par Didier Lupo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndISsnpZF1k
Tekki shodan kata bunkai défense par Didier Lupo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txP8vWt3xQE
ENPI le kata le bunkai la réalité
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RJoTLfcwg
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#366059 - 11/07/07 10:42 PM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

I have the Hohan Soken DVD "Life of the Grandmaster" -you and others have probably watched it...
Quote:

SYNOPSIS

Hohan Soken - The Life of a Grand Master This historic video is a documentary on Hohan Soken, 10th Dan and founder of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu Karate. It includes “Newly Discovered- Lost Footage” of Hohan Soken. It includes a biography of Soken Sensei detailing his life in Karate Do. It also shows rare historic footage of Soken Sensei performing various kata including: Naihanchi 1-3, Seisan, Chinto, Kusanku, Gojushiho, Rohai, Tsuken bo, Kama Kusari and Hakutsuru, the closely guarded secret white crane kata of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu. Additionally, the video includes rare footage of some of Soken Sensei’s top students performing in Okinawa in the 1960s and much more! This documentary style video is a piece of history and brings the past to life! It preserves the teachings of a highly respected Okinawan Grand Master whose legacy was to bring karate from a bygone age into the modern era. A must for the serious martial arts collector.




as far as what is shown on there of his top students during the 60's (which is prior to when you say things started getting washed out), I didn't see anything other than your typical vanilla Itosu shorin-ryu type movement that you berate. It's the type of movement that speaks as students not knowing the application of it's principles or body dynamics.
I reserve giving opinion on the Hohan Soken himself kata footage, since he looked quite old. we can only hope to move as well at that age - but it's difficult, if not impossible to see the dynamic which seniors are demonstrating with a slow step-thru....and maybe his students were just imitating the movement of their aged master.






I don't know who is on that video. I know that Lindsey, Coffman, Nishihira, Nishimine, Akamine, Gingras and Tatum are all very good Okinawan Karate stylists. I have yet to see any video that gives you the feeling and instruction that a 7 hour training session with Lindsey Shinshii imparts.

If you think that that Kusanku video by Nishimine looks like the Matsubayashi, Kobayashi, Shobayashi, Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Wado or other Kusanku you've seen on video then you can't tell what is real and what isn't. Again without formal training in the kata, how can you tell what is good or bad? It'd be like me commenting on how good a Cricket player someone is. It would be pure conjecture based on a lack of deep knowledge in the subject.

Lindsey will tell you himself that all these guys claiming to have studied with Soken did so at a time when the guy was over 70. His karate was not as it was when he was 40. His kata was what you saw. Outstanding for an old guy, but changed to fit his current body. As a result you'll see many of his students mimic a movement that was not executed in the same manner when Soken was young. They'll actually do their forms like an old man! We use to talk about it all the time and laugh our arses off.

Ed, you're looking for all these karate answers in a virtual way. If you ever think that you want to know what old style karate was like before it was overly diluted look for a Shorin Ryu guy that can teach you these things. That is if they will teach you because many of the old style sensei will interview you first before they allow you to train with them.

I really take what you say with a grain of salt. You're one of the folks on here who can't seem to discern the real from the fake, so you attack everything. On these sites I'm an armchair quarterback, as far as you know. In the dojo I am pretty good and credit that to being lucky enough to train with the right people in my life. That was not always the way as I have trained with some hacks too. Those instances allowed me to compare the plastic with the true.

Maybe one day if you guys decide to have a training session (get together) in South Texas then we can all meet. I would be glad to train with ernest and adept people. I'm sure you guys could teach me a lot. At the same time we could do some drills which would test your physical resilience and give you a different way to look at "yakusoku kumite" and the such.

Comparing and contrasting in person is a much better way to prove things. Then you can see how the esoterica binds with the concrete, how science beats out hope. How the old ways can be what everyone has been searching for Stateside and Europe-side for years.

BTW Butterfly, there is no doubt in my mind from what you write to your vids that you can "talk the walk" and vice-versa. Same for Jim, Medulanet, BuDoc, Hedkikr, CVV, Matt, Victor and a few others.

Time to take my meds as Eddie the Shrink would say. Gotta go do kata! Train hard and smart...
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#366060 - 11/07/07 11:00 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
I liked those videos and renditions of kata and bunkai. Again, there is a lot of block-wait-strike-wait-throw-pause gendai stuff in it, but they were cool.

The use of a wide horse stance in Tekki is baffling to me, but that is the Shotokan way. Also originally in the kata, Naha-te, Tomari-te and Shurit-te there were basically two kicks (front kick and inside crescent kick) and lots of knee strikes. You can tell if a style is schoolboy or not by use of techs like the sidekick and horizontal fist and such. Obviously schoolboy karate is the norm so the old way is the odd man out usually, so more power to you.

As a Kishaba Juku guy, did you learn that all karate was the same? The principles of Kishaba Juku borrow heavily from Soken's karate. Is there a reason that it was favored over the Matsubayashi model? I never asked you this before, but I wanted to know your take.

BTW karate is more than kata and bunkai. Much more.
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#366061 - 11/07/07 11:24 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Tekki Shodan at 4min 13 seconds a punch landed on him when multiple strikes were thrown. Not effective bunkai. The slow motion really shows he would have gotten nailed but the Uke punched to the side.

Kinda funny to let that be shown if you're saying it's effective bunkai.
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"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#366062 - 11/08/07 12:05 AM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Unyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Bryan, again with the personal insults. OK, I'll bite so lets dance.

Out of the people on this forum how many have you met up and trained with? I note you've been on these boards for MANY years longer than me- just reincarnated under a different moniker as oppossed to EVER using your real name with it's real spelling - isn't that right Mr. Bryan Cyr ? ...how is it that you've managed not to meet anyone in person? no really. in that respect, you have much more qualification to be regarded the cyber-warrior and virtual student you accuse me of being. How many videos have you shared of your own performance? oh thats right, none.
So let me get this straight, I use my real name, I share a glimpse of my movement online and meet forum members in person - you don't, and nobody has ever seen you move; every one of your posts talk down to people like they are children... and I'M the poser? time to flip the mirror, ya coward.


Butterfly, Hedkikr, Victor, Jim (wuxing), other unnamed MAists here and unnamed well-known published MA authors/teachers - when we met in person, even though we haven't trained in the same Arts, I can still see the years of training in their movements when we shared in person. Every martial artist thats been around for a while can look at another's movement regardless of the specific material, and guess about how many years they are seeing...especially among different styles of Karateka. You don't acknowledge that, but yet you do 'da realz'?

I'm sick of your mudslinging me when I disagree or give honest feedback/opinion that you happen not to like.

You hold Brad (butterfly), Ed (hedkikr), and Victor in high reguard, yes? - do me a favor and send them each a PM and ask them directly: "Is Ed M. a fraud, wannabe, cyber-stylist?" Then you'll at least have an informed opinion from people who have actualy shared with me in person. In fact, if you DON'T do that, it will just serve to underline your propensity to armchair observe without fact finding....you do this so you don't have to confront changing your pre-formed opinions...another cowardly trait.

Take your style-snobbery and shove it up your hip-hop 'O-shiiti', aho-jin.

{this'd be the part where you disappear without responding then come back on after people have forgotten the fact that nobody online here or any other forum you've been banned from has ever seen you move in person or on video. ya hypocritic.}

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#366063 - 11/08/07 12:12 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
The seisan bunkai was certainly a waste of movement,& way too nice for effective SD,but atleast both karateka were brave enough showing it on the web.
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#366064 - 11/08/07 12:29 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Unyu]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

The principles of Kishaba Juku borrow heavily from Soken's karate. Is there a reason that it was favored over the Matsubayashi model?




Unyu, I don't know if this statement is quite accurate. Kishaba Juku came from Matsubayashi. Although Kishaba did study with Sokon back in the day for a time, in Okinawa this was a common practice. Kishaba's teachings are based on those of Seigi Nakamura. Nakamura was a senior instructor in Matsubayashi and student of Nagamine. Nakamura developed his own way in Matsubayashi as did/do all seniors. This is the way in Matsubayashi. Keep the principles intact, however, you develop your own way as well. The Kishaba Juku guys are building on Nakamura's teachings of Matsubayashi, which he built upon what Nagamine taught, which Nagamine built upon what his teachers taught and so on and so forth. I think a more accurate statement would be principles of Kishaba Juku borrow heavily from Nagamine's karate. Or maybe the karate of Nagamine and Soken are a lot closer than you or those you are associated with realize.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#366065 - 11/08/07 01:46 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Jim, in regard to your original question posed to the thread. In my opinion anyway, there are few that can show the transition from kumite drills (like the examples you gave), to actual usage in a chaotic setting with stakes, such as in semi/full-contact 'spar' (for lack of a better term, but you know what I mean: non-compliant 2-person work with the risk of getting hit...Okinawan art teachers sometimes call it 'play' ).

The main reason I don't see transitioning from the one-step kumite stuff as a good learning method is because of the fact a large majority of karateka seem to never go beyond that stage. they get locked in and comfortable with being able to do pre-arrainged sets, almost as if training for demonstration of it as oppossed to making it work in a resistive mode. ...the 'play' is dead and instead it becomes an optimized performance. if that distinction makes sense. Thats the main danger I see.

but I don't 100% discount this as a training method either - everyone has to start somewhere of course....it's just that staying there without taking it further could do more harm than good by ingraining bad or unrealistic habits.

We could say 'most likely' the video is showing a place that is stuck in one-step kumite mode, since it has advanced ranks demo'ing....but thats the rub with video segments, it can't show all that they do necessarily.

It should go without saying, (again), that in evaluation of video its only evaluating the content of the video itself - NOT to be extrapolated into: 'everything they do must suck'. WE know the opinions don't extrapolate to that, but give an opinion that someone doesn't like of a video, and they'll take it as an attack on the entire system....it's simply not so.

similarly, if you want to be balanced about it, something seen to be really good doesn't necessarily make the entire system or training method to be so. it's simply an unknown which can't be commented on one way or the other - so we are left with JUST strictly the evaluation/thoughts on what IS shown.

try observing this sometime: give critical opinion of a video and the vested will swarm to defend it by saying the video doesn't show all there is to offer. yet, give praise of the same video and the vested will either be silent or underscore how whats shown is only a small sample of the good stuff and "there's plenty more where that came from!".


btw, Jim let me ask you and others - out of ALL the 'bunkai' vids you've seen...have you ever incorporated any into your practice? personally, I have not. Even ones that I thought looked pretty neat. why? flavors of Karate have varying theme, intent, strategim, and economies (embeded within movement/principles)....their peices don't interchange like lego blocks. very rarely could you pluck something out of Shotokan and place it into Goju without modification - too much has to be attached along with it - and if it isn't, then it becomes an artificial transplant. however, some things would seem to naturally blend....I just haven't come across any in video form, nor am I looking.

but people do it anyway. which is why over the years, we have seen traditional karate begin to merge into one gigantic 'vanilla' style. don't know about you, but just seeing kata performance from competition clips alone, the modes of movement between styles has become harder and harder to distinguish - I increasingly can't tell mainstream Shorin from mainstream Shotokan or Goju. everyone moves the same. similar thing when I see the typical 'bunkai' demos people are throwing around.

just one persons thoughts. not a call to be targeted for ad hominem attack or anything.

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#366066 - 11/08/07 02:27 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

btw, Jim let me ask you and others - out of ALL the 'bunkai' vids you've seen...have you ever incorporated any into your practice?




Ed, if you don't then it is your bunkai that is the problem, not bunkai in general. I personally utilize the bunkai I practice in all resistive practices. When I train my adult students in kumite there are very few techniques that we disallow. We utilize our supplimentary training (such as atemi waza development using makiwara/muay thai pads/focus pads/kick shields/heavy bag training as well as our grappling/karate wrestling training) and we utilize our bunkai oyo/application training).
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Dulaney Dojo

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#366067 - 11/08/07 02:45 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
maybe you misunderstood? I don't watch youtube one day, see something cool, and incorporate it into my practice the next day. Maybe you or others need the internet for ideas on how to use kata, but the art I'm learning stands on it's own for what it need to do just fine without trying to pluck something out of the passing mainstream. similarly, I've never heard any of my instructors past or present say: "hey, I found something in this book/video let's study that today and make it part of our syllabus."

it's like when instructors take grappling seminars, then go back to their TMA and put 'Tegumi' on their syllabus. "what? tegumi has always been part of my Karate. You mean to say YOU don't have tegumi? oh well then, it's not the real old-style stuff that WE have."

show me a Shotokan groundfighter prior to the 1990's UFC era, and I'll eat my words. people are plucking stuff out and dropping it into their art, then re-writing their history to illustrate that it was always part of the Art and has been passed down thru unbroken lines with all intact. 'bunkai' has been going down the same way.

'bunkai' wasn't even a term used in old karate. old-karate was no terms, in a backyard, wearing whatever made sense for the outdoor climate that day, using rocks, jars and beans for training. Too bad they didn't have the internet so they didn't have to train like crack-pots in mudhuts, right?

not to say mimicing a romaticised past will do anyone any good, but somehow they managed without youtube.

corroberation and cross-pollination of sharing/studying in-person...actually ingesting it actively is the only real way to incorporate material....so if thats what you meant, my appologies for the rant.


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#366068 - 11/08/07 03:26 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
No, that's not what I meant. Maybe I used the wrong quote when responding to your post, but I don't get my applications from youtube or seminars. What I do is based from training with my teachers. I was speaking generally about bunkai. You said you don't apply your bunkai training in full contact sparring. I was commenting that I do. I don't remeber saying anything about getting my apps from youtube or seminars. In addition, I don't go to grappling seminars, I have always grappled since I started karate. It is simply supplemental training like lifting weights or running. Grappling has always been a supplementary training tool for karate men in okinawa. Both Nagamine and Hohan Soken have suggested this. It is also important for understanding and applying bunkai. As for the terms you are right, the okinawans never used the term bunkai. However, they didn't speak english either and they probably never use any of the terms I do. However, I don't make claims on practicing their art. I practice MY KARATE, which is based on the principles that Nagamine learned from his training in old style karate.
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#366069 - 11/08/07 04:04 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I just ran across these clips:

Shito-ryu seisan bunkai

Seisan Shito Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouVbKOI1gQo

Seisan Bunkai 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF480c4JKXo
Seisan Bunkai 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtPl48yPUa0
Seisan Bunkai 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3ohdgj2cSE
Seisan Bunkai 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwtTaXxlAV8
Seisan Bunkai 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGhYe6n0Zbw

And for the Shotokan crowd

NIJUSHIHO le kata , le bunkai , la réalité par Didier Lupo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7naDDrWeF0
KARATE bassaï-daï kata bunkai défense par Didier Lupo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzYTDQNHVXk
KANKU-DAÏ BUNKAÏ par Didier Lupo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndISsnpZF1k
Tekki shodan kata bunkai défense par Didier Lupo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txP8vWt3xQE
ENPI le kata le bunkai la réalité
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RJoTLfcwg




Hi Victor.
Excellent find.

As a student could I ask the more expereinced guys
about their thoughts on specific techniques shown on all these vidoes (as above) regardless of style to disect the bunkia on these vidoes and give their honest ( Not style biased) opinion and if they find faults to say why there are faults.


Ed (Mr Unya, Ed is experienced) Medulant, Unya, Jim, Victor, butterfly( I know your mot much for kata but you do have a wealth of experience) Barad, Shonuff, Cxt, Brian s, Matt and any body I might have forgotten( My apologies)

Included might be also be the not so expereinced guys thoughts.

Jude

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#366070 - 11/08/07 07:19 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'btw, Jim let me ask you and others - out of ALL the 'bunkai' vids you've seen...have you ever incorporated any into your practice? personally, I have not. Even ones that I thought looked pretty neat. why? flavors of Karate have varying theme, intent, strategim, and economies (embeded within movement/principles)....their peices don't interchange like lego blocks. very rarely could you pluck something out of Shotokan and place it into Goju without modification - too much has to be attached along with it - and if it isn't, then it becomes an artificial transplant. however, some things would seem to naturally blend....I just haven't come across any in video form, nor am I looking.'

Hey Ed,

in short, no I havent.

this isn't to claim that all the Bunkai vids I have seen have no value, because I think some do.

it's more to do with my own study being vastly under practised, with just so much to be getting on with within my own training.Im also blessed with some fantastic direct teachers, so i work on what they direct me to do so, with some personal studies going on as well.

also I value that more as I work against common methods of assault, and within the seito matsumura kata framework, which isn't presented in video format - well not that I have seen.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#366071 - 11/08/07 07:37 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

You said you don't apply your bunkai training in full contact sparring.



??? - where did I write that? I think you misunderstood the gist of what I was writing.

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#366072 - 11/08/07 07:40 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
same here.

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#366073 - 11/08/07 08:24 AM Re: Bunkai Methods......Kise Seisan..............? [Re: Unyu]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Just a pause for a quick breath.

If anything internet discussion leads to short cuts in our thinking and a lack of politness we would likely use in person.

I just would like to clear the air a bit.

As for Ed, he and I have gotten together a few times. Our arts are different but we have exchanged points of view and he is quite agreeable company both in person and on the dojo floor. I look foward to our future visits and sharing.

Bryan, you work hard to make a clear case for your art and training. At times we butt heads but I've never doubted your background. In fact you've given me reason to try and understand your system a bit, even if from a distance. This last weekend I was talking with a friend who had trained with Lindsey Sensei a bit and he readily backed up everything you've said about him, his knowledge and abilities. I congragulate you on your instructors prowness.

The one thing we must always keep in mind, is, there are more instructors than just the ones we train with who have great abilities and knowledge, often in different directions.

I've trained with a half dozen men who were and are exceptional, and their arts are frequently at odds with each other. I have no idea who is top dog, but each of them have added immuserably to my own experiences, both in the past and till today.

I would hope everyone would take the time to find such an instructor. I know Ed's current instructor is such a person. I know Bryan's instructor is so too.

I would suggest that we don't get too personal in our discussions, we can learn more by rubbing against each other, even sparking a bit, but after that we don't gain a bit and we lose.

But what do I know?
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#366074 - 11/08/07 11:00 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,

Do I learn things from youtube vids? Certainly all the time.

I learn the shape of various arts, rarely expecting higher level performances but the shapes are valuable to me.

The bunkai performances run from those I have absolutely no interest in (and no desire to talk about) to those who are showing technique I find interesting.

On the whole I'm not a 'bunkai' fan, but I can see the use of what is shown in the right program, and no idea if those programs are what is being shown.

I'm hardly looking at how to apply kata technique, having more than enough for myself, but sometimes I do see variations on what I do that I'm not working and that is something to consider. (More often in the Silat traditions).

The recent 'bunkai' video's I shared were because I felt the performers were good technicians. The bunkai ranged drom options I agree with, to options I find are clearly timing/distance drills. On the whole I focus on fractals of techniques and rarely standard technique defintions how kata technique exists.

The first Shito-ryu Seisan Bunkai is a fine basic application, but there are many attacks, full speed and varying directions (hooks, etc.) that must be studied too.

The targeting of the reverse punch is fine for safety, but there are many more desirable options to strike for greater effect than what is shown.

That section of Shito-Ryu Seisan is a standard across most Seisan kata. I work dozens of applications off of that theme, and new sho-dans spend 6 months on a kata application study looking at afew of them, against all ranges and types of attacks, in our current curricula.

Unless you've really trained people for a time, it is hard to often understand how difficult it is for some technicians to learn how to move into a specific space presented by an attack. Those simple 'bunkai' drills are often difficult for many and have a use, but the goal is to move past that level, for that is but the beginning.

Always keep trying to learn by keeping your mind open.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#366075 - 11/08/07 04:05 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by medulanet -

Quote:

In addition, I don't go to grappling seminars, I have always grappled since I started karate.




http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=0&vc=1

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#366076 - 11/08/07 05:07 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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You got me, I forgot I went to that one with Relson when I took those two months of BJJ to try it out. I guess I meant to say that it is not a common practice for me. It was really like a part of the class. To pay for expenses and help out I went because all the other guys were going. Oh, I also went to a couple wrestling camps when I was in high school about 15 years ago. Another example is I don't do point fighting. I have done it before in the past, but it is not something I currently do, nor is it something I have done with much regularity. Or maybe if I say I don't beat people up outside of the dojo. I may have done it once or twice in the past, but it is not a common thing for me.
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#366077 - 11/08/07 05:11 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

You said you don't apply your bunkai training in full contact sparring.



??? - where did I write that? I think you misunderstood the gist of what I was writing.




Yeah Ed, your right. I thought you were referring to bunkai in general, but you were actually referring to using techniques that you saw on youtube. My mistake.
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#366078 - 11/09/07 06:46 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

Quote by medulanet -

Quote:

In addition, I don't go to grappling seminars, I have always grappled since I started karate.




http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=0&vc=1







OOOOOHHHHHHH!!!! You're soooo busted!!! LOL!
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#366079 - 11/11/07 10:11 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: BrianS]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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You are so unkind; there are seminars I've attended which I rather not disclose
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#366080 - 11/11/07 04:44 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

You are so unkind; there are seminars I've attended which I rather not disclose




Its not that I didn't want to disclose it, hell, I posted that I attended the seminars. The response I made was more in response to Eds assertion about people attending seminars to get their grappling skills and interpretations. That's okay for some, but I got mine from my instructor. In fact, I took BJJ for a couple of months to see what they do and how what I do matches up against it. Relson came when I was there so I went. For me its all about training with different guys to see what works and what does not. In fact, I left because I didn't like what they do in BJJ. That's probably why it I didn't remeber that I had gone when I was writing the post. Its okay for some, but just not my cup of "Ti". I train and teach grappling skill which is much more than simply BJJ. Standing or on the ground its about getting in a good position. Bunkai of kata is about placing your body in a good position from which to fight. That's what tai sabaki is all about. Lying on your back is not a good position from which to fight. I personally work on and teach how to get up if you get put or pinned down.
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#366081 - 11/12/07 09:13 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: medulanet]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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I think you missed the joke.

I didn't say those were martial arts related seminars
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#366082 - 11/14/07 07:30 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Ironfoot Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
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Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
I checked out the 5 seisan bunkai videos. My initial impressions: the first 3 are fine if a little basic.

The fourth one, where the opponent's arm is leveraged on the shoulder? There's better ways. Personally I like to leverage the opponent's head with my lead arm while locking his arm against my chest. Horizontal rather than vertical. Works better when there's a significant height difference.

The fifth one requires poor reaction from the opponent to allow his lead arm to be manipulated in that rather slow circle.

The Didier Lupo videos (I just watched the first and last) are excellent. And yes, when I watch another style I try to find similarities to Isshinryu or new ideas I can incorporate. For example, the Nijushiho kata in the firts Didier video, a form which I'd never seen before, has quite a few themes found in our Chinto, Sanchin and Sunusu katas.


Edited by Ironfoot (11/14/07 07:49 PM)
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#366083 - 11/15/07 03:03 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ironfoot]
truth Offline
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There are some great katas at this loc. http://youtube.com/watch?v=H9UrMOPVHW4

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#366084 - 11/15/07 05:01 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ironfoot]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi
Sounds like a good analysis.
I am still going over them.
Havent had much time just now.

Jude.

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#366085 - 11/15/07 07:17 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: truth]
Ironfoot Offline
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Thanks for the post, truth. The first kata was excellent, and the last was very, very good. The Gogishiho (2nd) kata was very interesting since it varied wildly from the version ALMOST included in Isshinryu's syllabus. From what I've heard, Shimabuku was teaching it to his senior students until he felt they were ignoring his own creation, Sunusu, for it. Not sure if the version I've seen my sensei do is from Goju, Shorin or what. The bo kata, Tokomeini no Kun, is exactly the way Isshinryu teaches it, unless you want to get nit-picky about the height of the block/strike with the center of the bo, or the size of the circular sweeps done soon after.
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#366086 - 11/15/07 08:12 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ironfoot]
truth Offline
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Your very welcome ironfoot. I was very impressed with that first kata also it was flawless...

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#366087 - 11/16/07 09:26 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: truth]
Ironfoot Offline
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True. You know those belt/no belt discussions brought up so often on the forum? If you saw this guy wearing a white cardboard belt, you'd still know he's a guy you could learn from.
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#366088 - 11/16/07 03:29 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ironfoot]
truth Offline
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Hey Ironfoot you can sure say that again I found an interesting fact about him http://www.usakaratedo.com/grant.htm
Thats a great accomplishment indeed.

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#366089 - 11/16/07 04:48 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: truth]
medulanet Offline
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I guess his kata was precisely done, but it was very rigid, stiff, and robotic with very little hip put into his strikes. Maybe this is the new standard of kata performance these days.
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#366090 - 11/16/07 05:36 PM Re: Bunkai Methods.................... [Re: medulanet]
truth Offline
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I guess you have alot to learn medulant.. You lost me with the above analysis..You need to go back to the basics and learn how the techniques are applied..Making statements like that is like spitting in a fan and not expecting it to come back to hit you in the face.

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#366091 - 11/16/07 05:43 PM Re: Bunkai Methods.................... [Re: truth]
medulanet Offline
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Actually, I believe I will always have a lot to learn. That is why I am forever a student. And THAT is the TRUTH. However, please explain how rigid and robotic movements and little use of the koshi in waza are good basics. Also, please explain how this particular kata performance aids in application.

Truth, it seems this is a very touchy subject for you. Are you this guy's student?
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#366092 - 11/16/07 06:12 PM Re: Bunkai Methods.................... [Re: medulanet]
truth Offline
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I wish i could say I was a student but I'm not. What I do know is I would rather be taught by my dog then from doodlelanedojo.Please refrain from contacting me I am here for positive interaction with other members.None of which share your sentiments.

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#366093 - 11/16/07 06:22 PM Re: Bunkai Methods.................... [Re: truth]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

What I do know is I would rather be taught by my dog then from doodlelanedojo.




Well, looks like your wish came true, truth. However, I am here for discussion. Please explain your position about the kata. If you would like me to PM you I can and we can discuss power generation and application of okinawan karate if you are unwilling to discuss these things here. I have asked a question and it seems as if you are attacking me. Where's the love?
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#366094 - 11/16/07 06:23 PM Re: Bunkai Methods.................... [Re: truth]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

I guess you have alot to learn medulant.. You lost me with the above analysis..You need to go back to the basics and learn how the techniques are applied..Making statements like that is like spitting in a fan and not expecting it to come back to hit you in the face.




Hi truth.

My thoughts given from my studies.

I also do go back to basics. I have a lot to learn as well.

So please educate me and inform me as to what are the techniques/ bunkia/ principles in that kata?

If you dont know how are you going to know the correct way of performing it? Apart from obviouse things.

Please be so good as to explain? Real bunkia that works as intended.

Other wise your bold statement doesnt mean a thing.

Unless your statement refers to the correct way of
performing kata for competition?

Does it?

Jude

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#366095 - 11/16/07 06:29 PM Re: Bunkai Methods.................... [Re: truth]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

I wish i could say I was a student but I'm not. What I do know is I would rather be taught by my dog then from doodlelanedojo.Please refrain from contacting me I am here for positive interaction with other members.None of which share your sentiments.




If your not a student you must be a master?. Why should medulant refrain from contacting you?
This is a discussion forum. Discussion means discuss?
I would like positive interaction.Can I ask what you think of the bunkia to the kata performed is?

Jude

Or are you selling a product?

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#366096 - 11/16/07 06:31 PM Re: Bunkai Methods.................... [Re: truth]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Truth,
You are on shakey ground here. You have made a few posts and answered a few of your own questions. Each question has pointed you in the direction of of Sensei Campbell. He seems to be a sincere man and a very credible martial artist. At this point you have not developed a shread of credibility here yet. Stop the name calling. If you know something about a topic (other than copying and pasting it from someone elses website) please contribute. If not choose you words wisely.

There have been people that have come here in the past to raise topics or bring schools to the attention of others. Some have done it directly and other come in asking insincere questions only to post their own pre owned, findings.

If you are affiliated with a Rye Ryu and you are pretending not to be, trust me this endeavor will not go well for you.

If you are here to learn, learn.
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#366097 - 11/16/07 06:54 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ironfoot]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I checked out the 5 seisan bunkai videos. My initial impressions: the first 3 are fine if a little basic.

The fourth one, where the opponent's arm is leveraged on the shoulder? There's better ways. Personally I like to leverage the opponent's head with my lead arm while locking his arm against my chest. Horizontal rather than vertical. Works better when there's a significant height difference.

The fifth one requires poor reaction from the opponent to allow his lead arm to be manipulated in that rather slow circle.

The Didier Lupo videos (I just watched the first and last) are excellent. And yes, when I watch another style I try to find similarities to Isshinryu or new ideas I can incorporate. For example, the Nijushiho kata in the firts Didier video, a form which I'd never seen before, has quite a few themes found in our Chinto, Sanchin and Sunusu katas.



I agree the first 5 were basic.


NIJUSHIHO le kata , le bunkai , la réalité par Didier Lupo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7naDDrWeF0
I like the way he does the kata.

3.36

I like that application

Also stops any incoming headbutt's.

I think there is some good stuff on that kata.
Isnt the part right at the end meant to more of twist the arms for a cleaner throw?

Sunusu?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVr97rTCy9w ?
I dont think I have seen that kata.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/16/07 06:59 PM)

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#366098 - 11/16/07 09:40 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Jude,

Sunsu (SunNuSu) Kata is unique to Isshinryu Karate. It is the creation of Isshinryu's founder Shimabuku Tatsuo.

It represents a combination of:
1. techniques from the other Isshinryu Kata
2. Techniques from Kyan Patsai Kata
2.*. Techniques from Patsai documented by Motobu Chokoi in his books.
3. Techniques from Kyan Gojushiho Kata
4. Unique additional techiniques of Shimabuku Tatsuo's own focus.

I is one of the few unique Okinawan creations in the 20th century that was not just a variation of other kata, nor a beginners kata.

Shimabuku Tatsuo left his mark on almost every aspect of the Isshinryu system, from stance choice, choice of punching technique, choice of blocking, etc. All of which are found in other Okinawan traditions but not necessarily in the same combination.

Another kata with a siginificent addition is Isshinryu's Wansu Kata, which is a variation of Kyan's Wansu Kata, but also a significent addition of other techniques.
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#366099 - 11/16/07 09:57 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
oldman Offline
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#366100 - 11/19/07 01:52 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Jude,

Sunsu (SunNuSu) Kata is unique to Isshinryu Karate. It is the creation of Isshinryu's founder Shimabuku Tatsuo.





Thanks Victor.

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#366101 - 11/19/07 01:54 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: oldman]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

[Shimabukus SunNuSu.




Thanks Oldman

Any new excellent drawings?

Jude

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#366102 - 11/21/07 08:25 AM Re: Bunkai Methods.................... [Re: medulanet]
Ironfoot Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
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Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
I'll concede there is not a lot of hip torque in the kata, but he's generating power on explosive forward steps. Over exaggerated hip torque can also be seen as winding up, especially when moving forward. You can use it more effectively when turning.

I don't think his kata is robotic; the important thing is there is good timing between his movements, blocks and strikes. He then pauses for dramatic effect; hey, a little showmanship is required, especially if you're in competition. I figured that coming from a hard style base, there was enough flow. Power did not fluctuate at any point, and his stances were solid.
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#366103 - 11/21/07 12:34 PM Re: Bunkai Methods.................... [Re: Ironfoot]
truth Offline
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Hey Ironfoot it's hard to express your veiws to people who spend more time on the internet then on the floor.No disrespect to others. If they were the recipients of the techniques of the kata then we would know if their was enough power behind them.I have to be careful because this endeavor may not end well for I according to the keyboard.Have a great thanksgiving Iron and fellow members.

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#366104 - 11/21/07 01:23 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ironfoot Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Hey Jude! Note that in Victor's post he gives 2 names for the same kata: Sunsu (SunNuSu). Shows how much dispute there can be within a fairly young style. One translation is "Strong Man", while the other (I'm going by what I've been told here - I don't speak Japanese) is "Son of the Old Man". It is a fine kata; it appears Shimabuku Sensei incorporated any of our basic techniques not found in any of the other kata. I was practicing its last half the other night in slow motion as was struck with its flowing beauty. Come up to Michigan one day and I'll teach it to you.
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#366105 - 11/22/07 06:19 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ironfoot]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

Hey Jude! Note that in Victor's post he gives 2 names for the same kata: Sunsu (SunNuSu). Shows how much dispute there can be within a fairly young style. One translation is "Strong Man", while the other (I'm going by what I've been told here - I don't speak Japanese) is "Son of the Old Man". It is a fine kata; it appears Shimabuku Sensei incorporated any of our basic techniques not found in any of the other kata. I was practicing its last half the other night in slow motion as was struck with its flowing beauty. Come up to Michigan one day and I'll teach it to you.




Would like to but I am in the UK.

What techniques/ bunkia are in there?

Jude

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#366106 - 11/22/07 10:11 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ironfoot]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ironfoot,

My choice of spelling for Sunsu SunNuSU isn't one of dispute, it's just there really is no right way to spell Okinawan/Japanese terms into English. The art of translation/ spelling rendering leaves a lot open for individual interpretation.

When I choose to use variant spellings I'm just trying to be inclusive. So I may spell it Sesan or Seisan, Seiunchin or Seiyunchin, Nihanchi, or Naifanchi or Nifanchi or Naifuanchi as I can readlily find all of them on my shelves.

Sunsu, SunNuSu is the same kata, just depends on which instructor/friend I'm talking to.

In fact it's much more complicated in the Japanese Kanjin, I think Joe Swift documented there is no standardized kanjin either, and found 4 entirely different kanjin for Seiunchin (and all spelling variants) used in different Okinawna dojo.

Also when I was trained we didn't discuss the meanings for the term, it was just a name for the kata. I am most definately unqualified on the correct translation. It has never hurt my practice.

Of course the spelling variations are far less than the Isshinryu variations from dojo to dojo either.

I only really worry about what I practice and teach, not what others do, but I do try to be inclusive in my descriptives for communications sake.


Edited by Victor Smith (11/22/07 10:13 PM)
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#366107 - 11/26/07 09:45 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Ironfoot Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
In Isshinryu testing we talk about the "principal" of the katas, or what is the main point being taught. Sunsu supposedly incorporates them all. There are elements of our other 7 hand katas within Sunsu, and a smorgasbord of techniques; elbows, spearhands, double punches, heel palms, shutos, hammerfists as well as knees, squat kicks (I prefer to view them as Muay Thai-style shin kicks), forward angle kicks, side kicks, heel thrusts, etc, etc.

Oddly enough, while the other kata have been extensively mined for bunkai by my senseis and contemporaries, not as much has been mentioned by them about this one. Perhaps, as this kata isn't taught until shodan, interpretation is left up to the individual. Of course I have some of my own, and am looking for more.
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#366108 - 11/26/07 10:17 AM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: Ironfoot]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

In Isshinryu testing we talk about the "principal" of the katas, or what is the main point being taught. Sunsu supposedly incorporates them all. There are elements of our other 7 hand katas within Sunsu, and a smorgasbord of techniques; elbows, spearhands, double punches, heel palms, shutos, hammerfists as well as knees, squat kicks (I prefer to view them as Muay Thai-style shin kicks), forward angle kicks, side kicks, heel thrusts, etc, etc.

Oddly enough, while the other kata have been extensively mined for bunkai by my senseis and contemporaries, not as much has been mentioned by them about this one. Perhaps, as this kata isn't taught until shodan, interpretation is left up to the individual. Of course I have some of my own, and am looking for more.




Sounds like a good kata.

Jude

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#366109 - 03/28/08 10:03 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: jude33]
Ice Offline
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Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 19
Loc: Slovenia, Europe
RKSI interpretation of kata bunkai, two person (tegumi) drills, finishing techniques and a few weapon techniques based on kata bunkai. Bunkai and tegumi in this seminar video was mostly based on Naihanchi 1,2,3,Chinto and Wanshu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDbnJtdC2f8

This is not fighting. Its drills and applications that can be used in a fight. Drills in this short video teach correct responses to different reference positions and basic HAPV. Yes, even pressure points can be added to every technique Influenced by DKI, CSSD/SC and IRKRS.

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#366110 - 03/28/08 10:33 PM Re: Bunkai Methods....................? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shoshinkan:

The kata, like their shown applications seems obscenely rigid/stiff IMHV-fwiw. I would NOT want to be hit by any of his strikes, and appreciated the take down in Naihanchi Shodan.

Too stiff, a very fundamental-simple usage. The most rote and surface layer... I would hope.

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken,

Jeff

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