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#365781 - 12/09/07 05:20 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
No, you were pretty explicit...
Quote:

Do you guys teach your students (beginners as well) only about the energy side of aikido, or do you also show them how to "muscle it" if their entry or lead goes wrong ?




Quote:

I'm asking about teaching people what to do when it's already gone wrong from the entry.


Well, that's an entirely different question... there are some common mistakes in basic techniques that people make and those are easily corrected by changing it, or doing something slightly different - even shifting the body angle slightly or creating space or negative space (i.e. changing the ma-ai).

But a million and one things can go wrong, and usually does. If you don't understand the basics of kuzushi, redirection, or changing your footwork and body positioning so as to aid the change in direction of force, then what's the point of teaching anything but the basics?

Everything is based on and flows from the basics - which is all I teach... basics and fundamentals. Up, down, left, right, front, back...

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#365782 - 12/09/07 05:53 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

No, you were pretty explicit...

Quote:
Do you guys teach your students (beginners as well) only about the energy side of aikido, or do you also show them how to "muscle it" if their entry or lead goes wrong ?



Quote:
I'm asking about teaching people what to do when it's already gone wrong from the entry.

Well, that's an entirely different question...




I don't really see them as entirely different.

This may just be my experience but with the tomiki club I trained at, most randori(full resistance rule bound competion) turned into tori/nage wrestling for control of the situation until a throw or lock could be applied, when nages timing wasn't perfect for the entry/recieve. This didn't just apply to beginners either, but many experienced players.


Quote:

If you don't understand the basics of kuzushi, redirection, or changing your footwork and body positioning so as to aid the change in direction of force, then what's the point of teaching anything but the basics?



Quote:

But a million and one things can go wrong, and usually does.


This is why, and what I'm getting at. Laern from your mistakes, but also learn what to do if you've already made them.

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#365783 - 12/09/07 06:24 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well they are different questions, although I suspect it's not the answer you want to hear. In any case, the answer remains the same... focus on the "basics", and by that I don't mean kihon waza. I mean "fundamentals", MA101 - footwork, body positioning, body alignment, ma-ai, kuzushi, redirection of forces, connection. Everything is based on and flows from these fundamentals. Get these right under any given situation and there is no technique you can't pull off - even if you botch the entry, lead or timing or whatever. Ukemi is quickest way to understanding.

The Founder once said, do not focus on this or that technique. Secret techniques will get you nowhere. Just focus on the basics.

As much as Tomiki was an accomplished martial artist, I don't think he really understood the fundamental premise of aikido. I think shiai detracts completely from the practical purposes of aikido, but that's an aside. And it is clearly evident from the choice of words - wrestling for control, that most people do not understand the fundamental premise of aikido.

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#365784 - 12/09/07 06:36 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

laern from your mistakes, but also learn what to do if you've already made them.




that would be to edit them....

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#365785 - 12/09/07 06:59 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

In any case, the answer remains the same... focus on the "basics", and by that I don't mean kihon waza. I mean "fundamentals", MA101 - footwork, body positioning, body alignment, ma-ai, kuzushi, redirection of forces, connection. Everything is based on and flows from these fundamentals. Get these right under any given situation and there is no technique you can't pull off - even if you botch the entry, lead or timing or whatever.




fair enough, thanks.

Quote:

Ukemi is quickest way to understanding.



I like the sound of that .

Quote:

As much as Tomiki was an accomplished martial artist, I don't think he really understood the fundamental premise of aikido. I think shiai detracts completely from the practical purposes of aikido, but that's an aside.



Yeah I've heard this said before, interesting idea.

Quote:

And it is clearly evident from the choice of words - wrestling for control, that most people do not understand the fundamental premise of aikido.




There's premise and there's "oh sh1t, I just f#%ked up"

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#365786 - 12/09/07 07:16 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
One of the things I love about aikido is that anyone can do it. That is, anyone who is willing to let go of their ego and learn how to do it. They don't necessarily have to be able to do the ukemi, but it does help a lot. After all it is better to receive than to give.

The moment you turn it into some sort of "contest" or competition, I think is when people lose sight of what effective aikido can be. The moment you become fearful, ego-driven, or wanting to do something to someone, you lose the fundamental premise of aiki - to join with someone's force.

That's why learning is cooperative at one level and collaborative at another level. It is the only way to learn aikido effectively. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that all forms of learning can benefit thru cooperation and collaboration and by people helping people.

It's all about fighting, but the best way to learn, is to stop "fighting" first.

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#365787 - 12/09/07 07:53 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

to join with someone's force.

That's why learning is cooperative at one level and collaborative at another level. It is the only way to learn aikido effectively. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that all forms of learning can benefit thru cooperation and collaboration and by people helping people.

It's all about fighting, but the best way to learn, is to stop "fighting" first.




Hi

I have never practiced Aikido but.
From my studies I can see the use of redirection.
and I can see your point about only way to train it is to isolate it in training. Aikido I think does this.
I can see the use of using brute force


Then I see a person using the end product with a form of aikido throw. It was a combination of everything.
It looked awesome and it was done by the looks of it for real.


Jude

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#365788 - 12/09/07 09:43 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
First, let me say that Aikido isn't jello... you don't just add force to make techniques work. Eyrie is absolutely right about the process for making Aikido techniques... proper footwork, spacing, body structure, etc. for ALL Aikido techniques. They are precise and determinate of what will occur after "interception" with the uke.

When I say "help" a technique, I mean "I may have to make the hole bigger", or "I may have to stretch further", or I may have to take a "scooting step" to take up the slack... not just the Jello recipe... Just add force...

Aikido is not wrestling, so you are not forcing anything... you are allowing the body's energy to be redirected so that it creates a repeatable effect. The recipe for that is to get the elements right and then apply them in order.

Jerking, pulling, wrestling and "adding force" are not anything I teach in Aikido( I do sometimes in jujutsu, but that's a different sequence of events). In jujutsu, I sometimes use striking into the joints to effect things, but never in Aikido, so the instruction is different, while the effect might look similar.

Quote:

There's premise and there's "oh sh1t, I just f#%ked up"




All I can say is that I've had my share of that. "Back in the day", I usually got my lights knocked out when that happened, but as I learned, I could correct a lot of it so it didn't happen that often.

Eyrie said it best...
Quote:

The moment you turn it into some sort of "contest" or competition, I think is when people lose sight of what effective aikido can be. The moment you become fearful, ego-driven, or wanting to do something to someone, you lose the fundamental premise of aiki - to join with someone's force.





Quote:

It's all about fighting, but the best way to learn, is to stop "fighting" first.




Follow instructions, do it right, and it works like a charm... make it up as you go along, and it'll take forever. Once you learn the fundamental "feel" of Aikido, you'll be able to "make it up", but until you get the fundamentals right, it'll look gawky...

P.S. Not necessary to "shout" to ask me a question, even if I'm walking off into the sunset shaking my head...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365789 - 12/09/07 04:50 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Jerking, pulling, wrestling and "adding force" are not anything I teach in Aikido( I do sometimes in jujutsu, but that's a different sequence of events). In jujutsu, I sometimes use striking into the joints to effect things, but never in Aikido, so the instruction is different, while the effect might look similar.




I've been out of aikido for a while (not sure if I was ever doing it now ), but hope to get back to it sometime. For now I think I'm more comfortable on the jujutsu side of things.



Quote:

It's all about fighting, but the best way to learn, is to stop "fighting" first.



This is going to take some time....

Quote:

P.S. Not necessary to "shout" to ask me a question, even if I'm walking off into the sunset shaking my head...




Just making sure, oldtimers distracted by bright lights and all..

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#365790 - 12/09/07 05:24 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< Follow instructions, do it right, and it works like a charm... >>

You mean verbal instructions, don't you, wt.

It had been a long time and I still miss them.

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