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#365771 - 12/07/07 05:25 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Practically I don't see what any difference that makes.




Eyrie, you have to look for what's hidden in plain sight . All I'm talking about in terms of being realistic is nage testing themselves, and uke having some brains and self preservation.

In this instance uke should not just attack, but attack smart. Not overcommitted (would you attack someone like that?), not prearranged or telegraphed (would you attack someone like that?), not just attacking, but defending themselves against what ever you try to do(isn't that what you would do?). This is what I meant buy more realistic. The intent is there yes, but I can have intent on an overcommitted, telegraphed, prearranged attack and that is where the difference is. Thats why I wouldn't use the word intent.


Quote:

Grady has mentioned this before too... if uke changes, you have to change up. It would be silly, not to mention, un-aikido to force the technique where it is obviously not going to work.




Then nage learns when it's best to apply aikido, and in the times it goes bad, to pull their sh1t together and go with it. What's so bad about that? to me that's a good lesson. I wouldn't ever count on any art to be the only answer to everything. Wristtwister said it himself where his aikido blurs to jujutsu and back again.


Quote:

The issue I have with this is, in learning mode, changing up to foil the "technique" robs nage of the learning experience. It also robs uke of a valuable learning experience... that of learning how to read nage's "holes".




Ive already said that there is a need for some training to be slow and cooperative, that's just common sense . But some training in learning mode should also include uke trying to "foil" the technique, nage is not robbed of learning but gains greater understanding of what's involved.


Quote:

Obviously... but it is also dependent on the individual's level of skill and ability.




Of course it does, but that doesn't mean it can't be done from the very early on in someones training. Like everything, you adjust it to suit the skills of the practitioner.

I went to a bjj school during a night off from regular training recently and during free rolling they had certain techniques you couldn't do on the white belts, but apart from these it was game on. (I had to laugh at this considering I'm a no belt and got pretzeled up all night long, but this guy that was killing me kept saying "you can't do that,I'm a white belt" )

You obviously have far more experience with aikido than I do, but my views toward training are the same across the board, whether it be aikido, karate, a spelling bee or anything else.

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#365772 - 12/07/07 06:27 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Whoa up there a second, Evad...
Quote:

Wristtwister said it himself where his aikido blurs to jujutsu and back again.




No, I said that my striking techniques blurred between jujutsu, karate and Aikido... I know exactly where my jujutsu turns to Aikido and vice-versa. Mechanical manipulation is jujutsu... energy manipulation is Aikido. I know exactly when I have to "help" a technique because I didn't get it right "exactly" on my entry, or lost it through the lead...

No, I don't stop and start over, I simply "help" it to succeed by applying additional manipulation... turning it to jujutsu. Can the students tell the difference?... I doubt it.

Once you actually understand "lead", and I'm not talking intellectually, but by feeling when you have the lead and when you don't, Aikido becomes much easier to do. If you understand the techniques from their "energy structure" and how they have to be redirected to work, it changes your ikkyo, nikyo, etc. into energy patterns rather than 'techniques". Once you understand that you aren't doing anything but leading energy into a different direction, (again, not just intellectually), you're doing Aikido.

The trick is in how much actual Aikido you do... and how much of it has to be turned into "other things".

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365773 - 12/07/07 06:54 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

As I was executing the techniques, I was explaining how and when my Aikido became jujutsu, and when the jujutsu became Aikido. Essentially, if a technique requires more than redirection, it's jujutsu... if it's "all energy", it's Aikido... but clearly the explanation was over some of their heads.




I meant no offence, I was refering to the above passage.

Quote:

I know exactly when I have to "help" a technique because I didn't get it right "exactly" on my entry, or lost it through the lead...




This is whatI am talking about, no ones timing is perfect all the time? People should train for when things go bad as much as for when they go good.


Quote:

The trick is in how much actual Aikido you do... and how much of it has to be turned into "other things".




Again yeah this is me.

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#365774 - 12/07/07 10:44 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:
I know exactly when I have to "help" a technique because I didn't get it right "exactly" on my entry, or lost it through the lead...
---------------------------------------------------
The above sounds very much like my aikido would be better (more effective) if I knew some other MA with mechanical assistance. I don't.

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#365775 - 12/07/07 05:09 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
iaibear, think "levers". Jujitsu is based on the principle of leverage and circularity. With levers, a small force can move a large weight. The long bones of the skeleton are the levers. Where the fulcrums are, and how to use it is the trick. It's much easier to show this in person than to describe it in writing.

Dave, remember what I said about Aikido being focused on YOU - maintaining your structure? Same applies whether you are nage OR uke.

Overcommitted attacks are easier for noobs to learn how to find the "flow" and kuzushi points. All attacks in learning mode are always prearranged. Telegraphed attacks are easier for noobs to develop entry and timing skills.

As you get better and uke gets better, there should be less reliance on these artificial training constructs.

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#365776 - 12/08/07 06:54 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The class I taught last Wednesday night was on "energy" work... and one of my instructions was to leave your hands open... no grabbing, no gripping, simply leading the other person's energy to the point of a throw.

First thing everybody did... grab whatever was extended.

The second thing I told them, was "one continuous motion"... "don't stop to admire yourself during the movement"... second thing they did... stopping to look at the connection, or stopping the "flow" right in the middle of the technique and having to try to restart it from zero.

Now I realize I have a southern accent, but words are words... and they mean things. If you follow DIRECTIONS, then all martial arts are simpler... if you "do it your way", it takes forever to unlearn your bad habits and do it the way it's actually done.

I can't tell you how many times I repeat the same instruction to the same people who just don't get it... I've tried it in English, Japanese, and French... and it doesn't matter what language you use, somebody not following directions doesn't do things right.

It drives me nuts, because my teaching buddy simply shows a technique and everybody attempts to follow it... with little if any success. I think, because there's "no instruction". We've discussed it a number of times, and his answer is always "I'm imitating Sogunuma Sensei imitating O'Sensei"... which is, to me, saying "I can't explain this"... I understand the principle, but it would be so much simpler if the students would just follow the directions they receive.

If they're "imitating Sensei B imitating Sogunuma imitating O'Sensei"... they suck at it. They would be a lot further along just following instructions and actually trying to do what they're told. It's hard to have any sympathy for their lack of learning when they won't do what they're told to do in rote practice, and then whine that "they aren't learning anything"...

I spend an inordinate amount of time teaching the students who listen, and they make good progress. The ones that don't, I don't waste my time on... but, of course, they whine about how little they're learning.

We all run into difficulties learning "things" in martial arts, but if you're following instructions, even if they aren't clear, you should be doing something similar to what you're supposed to be doing... and working out the "rough spots" is easier. If you're just doing what you're doing, and expecting a miracle... good luck. It doesn't work that way.

I can do, and have done, a lot of things that I don't totally understand in training, but following the plan is easier than making it up as you go along. You can't lie down in the middle of the road, and then yell for help
expecting everything to go your way.

FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS, then ask for help. ASK ABOUT THE PRINCIPLE INVOLVED, rather than the particular technique itself... and then, practice practice practice.

WT slowly walks off into the sunset, shaking his head and wondering why he bothers teaching people who resist learning...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365777 - 12/09/07 04:08 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yeah I dunno Grady... it seems to be some sort of martial IQ threshold. My instructor never said diddly squat during training. Although sometimes he did rant and rave on for 20min while we sat in seiza, legs going numb, and quickly cooling down. Our teacher never says more than 3x3 word sentences. But it's not because they can't explain it, it's just not worth the effort to do so... coz one day hopefully, dumb ol Joe will figure it out.... maybe.

When I teach, I can't help myself. I have to explain things, and yet people either don't register the instruction, or their body simply cannot coordinate with their brain. Things like, put your foot here, slide the other back, create a hole for uke to fall in, relax your shoulders, don't pull, just bring your hands down to your belt level... blah blah blah. Maybe it's just too much for people to follow?

I just dunno....

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#365778 - 12/09/07 04:14 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Overcommitted attacks are easier for noobs to learn how to find the "flow" and kuzushi points. All attacks in learning mode are always prearranged. Telegraphed attacks are easier for noobs to develop entry and timing skills.





Again I agree with this. I just like to add a bit more to it, but I think we are going in circles. Just hang on a minute eyrie.....*turns toward sunset "HEY WRISTTWISTER, CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING ?"*

Do you guys teach your students (beginners as well) only about the energy side of aikido, or do you also show them how to "muscle it" if their entry or lead goes wrong ?

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#365779 - 12/09/07 04:44 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Muscle? Obviously, if you are strong enough, you can always out-muscle a weaker person and somehow make it work. But it's not aikido and I wouldn't even call it jujitsu.

Any fool can use "muscle". If people want to use muscle, then why bother learning aikido? You'd be better off hitting the gym and pumping iron. As I always tell people, in a contest of strength, the strongest will always win. But if you want to learn aikido, then I will show you how a small child can throw a big person with little to no effort.

The point is to learn the principles of how and why the technique works. If you have to rely on "muscle" to make it work, IMO you are not effectively utilizing the technical principle.

There are many elements to making a technique work - not just "energy". Of these elements, I would consider footwork, body positioning and body alignment as paramount. If you don't have your feet and body lined up correctly, the technique will almost invariably, NOT work. To this end, I tend to focus a lot more on martial conditioning to connect the upper and lower halves of the body - feet, knees, hips, body, elbows and hands.

The next important element is ma-ai. If your ma-ai is too far outside of uke's the technique will not work. The overarching element is of course, to relax - especially the shoulders. If you tense up, the technique will not work.

Entry, timing and leading come much later when students can start to move relatively smoothly. These are "temporal" elements, and relate to speed and time. When people start to tense up and muscle their way thru a technique, I will slow it down and go back to the "basics" - footwork, bodywork, relax, relax, relax. Besides, if you relax, the "energy" flows better.

Aikido, like the weapons-based arts it is derived from, is a taijutsu art - that means footwork and bodywork are all important to understanding how the art works.

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#365780 - 12/09/07 05:00 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Sorry, again didn't frame that right.

Quote:

I know exactly when I have to "help" a technique because I didn't get it right "exactly" on my entry, or lost it through the lead...




Quote:

No, I don't stop and start over, I simply "help" it to succeed by applying additional manipulation... turning it to jujutsu. Can the students tell the difference?... I doubt it.




I was refering to the above ?

I understand about going back and fixing what went wrong with basic's etc..., I'm asking about teaching people what to do when it's already gone wrong from the entry.

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