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#365741 - 10/21/07 10:53 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
The randori I trained with was one on one, uke attacking with a tanto and tori defending. There were a basic set of legal throws/locks, tori was allowed alot more than uke. it was full resistance but very rule bound, with uke/tori swapping roles halfway through.

I know different schools do randori differently, some with multiple attackers etc..., but I only metioned randori as it was brought up as an answer to resistance training.

I was more or less talking about uke being on balance and defending themselves against what tori/nage was doing, after uke initial attack, during just normal training.

eg- learning new technique, start with mechanics of it, go through it with a compliant partner to get a feel of where things are, also go through it with someone not compliant to show any gaps that will need work.

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#365742 - 10/22/07 12:39 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
As I said before, being able to deal with a non-compliant uke is dependent on a multitude of things, most of all skill level. IOW, it is a degree of skill issue.

In any case, one must remain relaxed, keep one point, extend ki (ki is extended), keep weight underside, yada yada yada...

How you want to "test" your level of skill (or by extension, that of your partner), is up to you - whether it be done as part of normal training or in randori.

However, I would suggest, until you are able to remain relaxed under any circumstance, your partner should only provide you with as much "resistance" as you need to still remain relaxed.

If you find yourself, muscling thru the technique to make it work, it's a waste of time. Obviously the stronger person is going to win. However, if you want to learn to apply aiki properly, then it would behove you to learn how to use uke's strength against himself. And to do that, you need to start with being "relaxed".

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#365743 - 10/23/07 06:29 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
IMO, the biggest problem in training is that people forget that redirection requires something to redirect. They want to "go static" in attacks, or throw the "limp wrist" at you, so you not only have to provide the power to the defense, but to the attack as well.

Bokken and jo training will help that, but essentially it's gaining the mindset that you have to make it real to make it real. I've gone back to shooting pistols every weekend, and I can shoot like I'm shooting at a target, or I can point the gun at the target and say "bang, bang"... the results are dynamically different, as is the effect in Aikido.

I concentrate my teaching on "selected" students, who seem to have "it", and I tell them constantly that if they "do a half-a$$ed attack, they'll get half_a$$ed results". "Go for it", and then use your ukemi skills... if you hit me, it's my fault... and vice-versa.

I'm a pretty good teacher, and I try to make people feel that what they're doing will work in all circumstances if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. "Hit me if you can" is the level I work at, and I expect them to work at.

I've been satisfied with the results so far.

My senior student in Jujutsu just passed his Sandan test for Aikido, and the comments I got back from the "board" were that "it was the most amazing randori I've ever seen". Six man randori can keep you busy, and Tim went through them like a laxative.

"When it's real, it works... when it's "practiced", it sucks"... unless it's practiced the right way." WT

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365744 - 10/30/07 11:37 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Atemi is ALWAYS appropriate (in the dojo I like a light slap across the attacker's face, and depending on the position of the attack relative to you)...as it sets up kazushi. Also, if I'm uke, I'll my adjust my resistance to the level of tori...I wouldn't stiff a white belt trying a basic technique unless he/she is grossly doing it wrong, but a the higher ranks, I'll shut you down on at least the first or maybe second technique and make tori think about adjusting to another class of technique (i.e switching from an uchi series to a soto series)...

So, to answer the main question, strike appropriate to the rank, (i.e if you're going to execute a jodan tsuki, then as uke try to hit/touch him/her in the head...and as tori use tai sabaki to start the technique, from there go about what you know.

I've seen other schools have uke throw a strike to the head (yokomen, shomen, jodan, etc) and have the strike still be 6 inches away from the target! How is that beneficial for anyone? Hit him/her in the head, as tori, either you'll get hit in the head, or apply principle #1 tai sabaki (body movement) and get out of the way!

Granted I'd want a white belt missing my head by 6 six inches, since a majority of new students don't know how to throw a punch. But it doesn't help anyone learn distance and timing if you throw a punch and kick that won't induce me to move. The long-winded answer is, the better (realistic) an attack, the better the training should go. This is not to say it's the best way, but, from my experience, teaching the new students early about the importance of executing a good strike will only make them better students/teachers as they grow. Sure, you'll get hit here and there, maybe even in the face, but at least they won't get caught up in the...hey...you didn't fall when I threw you...uhh...perhaps a nice slap across my face as you were setting up shihonage would have helped set my head/weight back on my heel and side of the foot (of course, couple that with the "twisting of the wrist and upward pressure on the arm/elbow as you wrap it around your forehead as you senkai") and maybe then I would have fallen???

Atemi is always appropriate.

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#365745 - 10/30/07 12:31 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they
Anonymous
Unregistered


Follow up...

Not sure about other schools, but in our cirriculum, brown and up, we sometimes spend a few minutes doing chigari randori...full resistance WITH counter...so uke can fully resist and counter...this is fun with rubber/wooden knives, since it helps you think about trying not to think about getting 1 stuck with the knife, 2 keeping your distance away from the free limb, 3 saying to yourself, don't go to the ground.

I've trained with a group from Canada (same style) and they way they taught at/to the higher ranks was eye-opening. The first 2 techniques were shut down...not because they wanted to show the americans they were better, but this is how the Hombu trained. Sometimes I'd try the technique 3 or 4 times.. nothing!...then they would make a couple minor adjustments to getting kazushi and bam! they'd fall.

Sorry to get off-topic, strikes help and are key, but the most important principle of aikido is kazushi! And a strike can certainly help you get it! Be it mae-giri...where does the weight go on the attacker? Forward, because usually, he/she leans forward to absorb, make miss the attack, perfect for mae hiki otoshi. Or iriminage? What if you're entering, parrying the strike and you go to execute iriminage? What if I stiff you by dropping my weight forward and leaning into your attempt to redirect my head? Hmmm... how about stepping thru and grabbing a little hair?? Sounds sissy, but you've now pulled me up and back and have set my weight back...now you can execute perhaps some stee(do) and do hadaka jime or simply continue with ushiro kata/kami otoshi.

I can't believe how many posts I've seen where this fundamental principle isn't mentioned more often in advice. redirect this, redirect that...ok....sure you can turn me around in a circle, but if you don't set my weight in a way that catches me leaning while you're doing it...you won't throw me...simple physics.

Sorry about being esoteric for the new student or those still learning the names of techniques

mae-giri: front kick
shihonage: 4 corner throw (may be described differently at other schools)
ushiro hadaka jime: rear naked choke
ushiro kata/kami otoshi: rear shoulder/head/hair drop
mukai daoshi / iriminage: entering throw (made famous by Steven Seagal)
kazushi: disrupt one's balance
mae hiki otoshi: front pulling drop
atemi: strike

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#365746 - 10/30/07 06:29 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Atemi is ALWAYS appropriate (in the dojo I like a light slap across the attacker's face, and depending on the position of the attack relative to you)...as it sets up kazushi.


I think the topic relates to atemi waza as it pertains to uke (i.e. uke providing a realistic attack). Considering that the roles of uke/tori are arbitrary, and are 2 sides of the same coin, it follows that the same applies to tori as well.

But here's a thought... aiki implies kuzushi ON or before contact. If you have to use atemi to get uke to move, in order to setup kuzushi, it means you haven't got it on contact. Which means, no aiki. Also, there are some people who will simply stand there and let you smack them, and still not move. So atemi may not ALWAYS be appropriate...

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#365747 - 10/31/07 11:04 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I can see your point and see how I focused more on the tori side of things.

Ok. Atemi waza. Striking techniques. In my school, a properly executed strike is critical to beginning the technique. Example. A poor strike to the head accomplishes nothing. If I see a yokomen uchi being executed and I can clearly see it's going to be short of the target by, say, 6 inches...there is nothing that uke has done to induce me to blend with the attack... there has been no disruption of mai ai. Why get out of my center, when the strike will simply pass right by my head?

That being said, if uke clearly attacks with intention (and follows through) is still short by 6 inches or less, as tori, you can see by simple physics that uke's momentum will already put him/her in an off-balanced position...their arm extended, perhaps showing me their back...good setup for ue ude garame, ushiro daki otoshi, kannuke hikitate, a yoko sutemi like sode waki dori or maybe just a good old ushiro hadaka jime.

So, to the original poster, I would say, a good attack is needed for everyone to grow.

From tori POV, I would argue that atemi is always appropriate, but not necessary* (see why below).

Last, to eyrie's point....distance and timing is critical to successfully executing a technique. That said, one's window to get kazushi is extremely small. You may have it on contact and lose it. And let's be realistic here...At my level, I expect my attackers to give me nothing. If I don't have the technique, don't fall. If my attacker comes in hard with a chudan tsuki and sinks 60% his/her weight on their front foot (because of a good shotokan strike ) I have to decide whether I nagashi away or irimi in...I choose uchi nagashi...maybe kubi otoshi, as I parry and seize the arm, uke is now connected to me, a sugiashi back to pick up any slack in the connection and get uke more forward on his/her front foot, then execute the otoshi. Where's the atemi to aid in kazushi??? Not necessary, but that front-kick to get the body leaning forward sure may help.

well, using that same attack, and now the attacker is 250lbs...for a split second, you have kazushi as the front foot is settling down...maybe a good uchi irimi and ko soto gari? Tough and only realistic in the dojo in a line drill in a cooperative spirit. Kata garuma or koshinage? Not on this monster. Ok. Soto irimi. Iriminage/Mukae Daoshi? Get real. If I were him, I'd stiff you simply with sheer size and by leaning forward. So as you put it...where's the "aiki"...it was there, but it's not now.

Ok. You missed the ko soto gari, kata garuma, iriminage, etc. how are you going to move this monster? Atemi, maybe??? Well, you've already committed to an uchi irimi...I would say...anything to set the attackers weight back, like a chin strike (Nodowa) or redirecting the head to now make the 250lb attacker more like 180lbs. Or maybe some ashi waza...hiza oshita oshi?

*Whew...sorry to get long winded, but unless we've been studying and practicing Aikido (whatever style) for over 20+ years (not that I have, I still have a lifetime to go), our opportunities to find kazushi and exploit it in that split second only come with years and years of training. So, while atemi may not always be necessary, it's certainly helps.

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#365748 - 10/31/07 01:29 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
mae-giri: front kick
shihonage: 4 corner throw (may be described differently at other schools)
ushiro hadaka jime: rear naked choke
ushiro kata/kami otoshi: rear shoulder/head/hair drop
mukai daoshi / iriminage: entering throw (made famous by Steven Seagal)
kazushi: disrupt one's balance
mae hiki otoshi: front pulling drop
atemi: strike

Thank you. I have not been at this art very long ("since 1994" is not a lifetime). With the exceptions of Shihonage, ushiro, irimi and atemi, these terms are new to me. Our Burmese head instructor does not speak Japanese.

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#365749 - 10/31/07 03:00 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You're welcome.

In our style, we never learned the first technique (Ikkyo) as that: Ikkyo. Rather the mechanics of getting into the technique Robuse (arm rowing). In our style, it falls into the classification of te waza (hand techniques, sub-class uchi nigiri ho...inward turning of the hand with respect to the thumb. And Nikkyo (another uchi nigiri ho) as hiji kudaki (elbow smashing), Sankyo (another uchi series) as yukichigai (inward turning of the elbow), and so on...there are 7 techniques in the uchi series and 7 in the soto series (outward turning of the thumb) ie. kote gaeshi, tembin nage/tenshin, ue ude garame, shihonage, etc.

We don't believe there to be different verions of "Ikkyo" like ikkyomote with relation to your stance i.e ai hanmi, etc. Ikkyo/robuse is just that (arm rowing to get the attackers elbow exposed and wrist turned inward with the thumb pointing up.. no matter how you were attacked and how you were standing...

But, I seem to be getting waay off-topic...atemi is always appropriate

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#365750 - 10/31/07 03:36 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

But, I seem to be getting waay off-topic...atemi is always appropriate



I'll go with that :-)

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