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#365731 - 10/17/07 09:15 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I'm not talking about a stump, just someone balanced and defending themselves.


Evad,

Imagine a person as a 4-legged chair missing 2 diagonal legs. A 2-legged chair doesn't stand up well, right? In which directions is the chair unbalanced?

There are 8 cardinal directions in which kuzushi can occur - the 8 points of a compass, plus up and down which makes 10. These represent the 10 general "holes" in which you can drop someone - whether they are resisting or not.

However, since everyone is different, in terms of mass, size, height, weight, and ability to root, affecting their CoG is going to be variable and will depend on YOUR own skill level.

The best thing to do is try it with a partner. Get them to stand in different stances, and try to push them gently in different directions. Which directions can they be easily off-balanced, and why? Think of the 2-legged chair...

Back to the issue of resistance. The basic premise of "ju" is pliancy and yielding - i.e. not meeting force with force. Extend this idea to resistance. Why meet resistance head on? If you try to do something to someone who is resisting, it is pointless to issue force along the line where you are going to meet with resistance.

You need to be like water (or electricity) and find the path of least resistance - which requires changing the technique, - i.e. changing the direction (either your's or theirs using tai/ashi sabaki), OR changing the range and/or timing. Remember, MA is a fluid thing - a continuous series of micro-adjustments of body position, footwork, distance, timing etc. BTW, ALL MAs work on these same principles.

If uke is simply standing there, whether they plant their weight or not, they're not giving you any force to work with - applying aiki in this case would be pointless. (Big reason why the aiki arts are PURELY defensive).

So, if they launch an attack and plant, all you need to do is get off the line and do nothing. Although, this is where the myriad opportunities for atemi present themselves . If someone consistently does that to me in a training scenario, in order to sabotage, all they will get for their efforts is a smack and a different counter.

As for "realistic" strikes - the way I teach strikes is a directed and focussed intent - i.e. shomen, is an open-handed strike to the face (that's what sho-men means) - usually to the nose bridge, but it could also be a hammer fist. yokomen is a strike to the temple or neck, but it could also be a cross/hook or haymaker. Sometimes we also do uraken/backfist, or gyaku/reverse knife hand (palm up or palm down).

Men tsuki is a straight punch or jab to the face. Chudan tuski can be done nakadaka ippon ken, uppercut, or as a simulated trust with a weapon - usually to the ribs.

Basically, any of the strikes found in kempo/karate/jujitsu can be used, but they're all variations of the 3 general directions - vertical, horizontal and sagittal. In all cases, the strikes are directed at soft target areas - which is why the speed and intensity needs to be moderated for people of different abilities.

Obviously, if they change up, you would have to do the same. It is never static. This is where randori comes in, and it never looks like the "pretty" technique one would do in learning/training mode, because the arbitrary roles of uke/tori is now dynamic and fluid. That's why it's not called randori (as in judo), but jiyuwaza (in Aikikai at least), because of the distinction as to who is uke and who is tori.

On a related note, this is the reason why Ueshiba was disinterested in Tomiki's idea to introduce shiai to aikido - because the competitive/sportive element of shiai is entirely counter to the whole idea of aiki as a purely defensive art.

You do KU right? Where in Qld are you? PM me.

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#365732 - 10/17/07 09:27 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
BTW, if you have a chance, do read George Ledyard's excellent response regarding "Active Resistance" here:
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=191839#post191839

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#365733 - 10/18/07 09:32 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<<If uke is simply standing there, whether they plant their weight or not, they're not giving you any force to work with - applying aiki in this case would be pointless. (Big reason why the aiki arts are PURELY defensive).>>

Thank you, eyrie. That was the clarification I was after.

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#365734 - 10/18/07 09:38 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Eyrie:

You make an excellent point, that bears repeating IMHV... that being


<<The attack doesn't have to be strong, or fast, but it has to be committed.

Precisely right!

Like many I have often seen "knife hand" strikes, punches which even if they hit would be completely irrelevent lacking any pretense of focus, power. There has to be weight behind the techniques... even when crawling through the steps the first few times.



Jeff

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#365735 - 10/19/07 12:20 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

So, if they launch an attack and plant, all you need to do is get off the line and do nothing. Although, this is where the myriad opportunities for atemi present themselves . If someone consistently does that to me in a training scenario, in order to sabotage, all they will get for their efforts is a smack and a different counter.




This is what I'm getting at. Training should at some point incorporate uke trying to "sabotage" you. This teaches people to adapt, not complain about being attacked wrong.

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#365736 - 10/19/07 04:12 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Hence Free Play/Randori in Aikido, where you don't know what you are going to get!

Much obliged for the comment Eyrie, though I haven't a clue about 99% of Aikido really!

Tomiki Aikido is getting closer and closer to Judo shiai. My friend was a course in England this year. It dealt with the new competition rules the JAA are bringing in. He said their are a lot of throws that are almost identical to Judo in the new rules. Not surprising really, considering Tomiki's background. There has always been a lot of crossover between Tomiki Aikido and Judo (e.g. Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata).
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#365737 - 10/19/07 07:58 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Prizewriter]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Training should at some point incorporate uke trying to "sabotage" you. This teaches people to adapt, not complain about being attacked wrong.




Quote:

Hence Free Play/Randori in Aikido, where you don't know what you are going to get!




Prizewriter, your forum title says it all. Aikido is 99% common sense - that's more than a fistful, I'm sure....

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#365738 - 10/19/07 11:31 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Speaking of 99%, check out this article regarding Aikido atemi:
http://www.mimagazine.com.au/Issue10_Oct/10_Atemi.htm

And this response to the article:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/index?id=1239

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#365739 - 10/21/07 09:57 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Prizewriter]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Hence Free Play/Randori in Aikido, where you don't know what you are going to get!




So we are back to the original question ,how realistic are the attacks being used in your randori ?

When doing tomiki aikido, I found the randori extremely good for training against resistance, but really predictable as it was done with uke using a tanto so you always new which hand was striking.

In my limited experience I never saw randori where uke was allowed to do what ever they liked(free sparring), which is why I keep asking about the attacks being used.

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#365740 - 10/21/07 10:13 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I guess I need some clarification about what YOU mean by randori. In our Aikido dojo when we do a "circle of fun", nage is in the middle surrounded by as many as six uke. This usually happens at the end of class where we have been practicing a single type or class of attack like defenses against a one-handed attack. The only rule is the uke attack one at a time, not necessarily with pauses in between and definitely not in any set rotation.

When all uke have attacked twice, nage switches places with one of them and it's off to the races again.

Is that "randori" as you understand it?

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