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#365721 - 10/17/07 12:10 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Wouldn't it teach them to apply aiki to a fully resistant opponent ?

Even with beginners, you could show them the mechanics involved and help get them used to it by being compliant - but also show them from the start the other end of the spectrum to demonstrate what thier eventually aiming for.




If you have to ask the question, you obviously have no idea what it is you're training towards....

Especially with beginners... developing aiki is not simply a mechanical thing (although basic Newtonian mechanics are involved). If it were, then anyone could develop aiki, right? Can you, for example, aiki just using your breath? Or, from a wrist or lapel grab, make uke such that they cannot lift their front foot and rob them of their power? Or from seiza, have uke push on your shoulders and they bounce off? These are more than just "mechanical" tricks.

Also, there are varying degrees of being able to use aiki against a resisting partner - even a partially resisting partner, let alone a fully resisting one. It takes a lot of solo work, and a lot of commitment. Certainly not something one can simply show to "beginners", especially those who still don't know their left foot from their right.

If uke chooses to plant their weight, a higher skilled practitioner would simply preempt the timing and/or change the technique so that any attempt to plant weight can be foiled. I would not expect a beginner to understand nor be able to do this without resorting to using muscular and shoulder strength - which is counter to the whole idea of aiki, or even ju. Also, having to change the technique robs tori from experiencing a learning opportunity.

Otherwise, why would the constant admonition still be to "relax"? If you can answer this correctly, then you will also begin to understand that it also does not matter what uke does.

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#365722 - 10/17/07 12:49 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

If you have to ask the question, you obviously have no idea what it is you're training towards....




I know what I'm training towards personally, but there is still alot I don't understand.

I can't get my head around training with no resistance or overcommitted attacks. I get the idea about slowly ramping it up for beginners, but at some level the training has to take on a more realistic approach to what tori is defending against.

Quote:

Certainly not something one can simply show to "beginners", especially those who still don't know their left foot from their right.




Why not ?? They don't have to be able to do it straight away, but to be shown it would be a huge benifit in seeing where they are going.

Quote:

Otherwise, why would the constant admonition still be to "relax"? If you can answer this correctly, then you will also begin to understand that it also does not matter what uke does.




I have know idea, but it's fun, I feel like I'm on a game show.

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#365723 - 10/17/07 04:26 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Aikido is as much about body movement as anything else. That is what kata and randori teach: how to move yourself and someone else. As Eyrie said, ultimeately is shouldn't matter what Uke does or how they do it. Aikido isn't about techniques as such. Try not to focus on what Uke does, focus on your Aikido.

Tori trains with Uke to learn about their Aikido. Of course good martial spirit is demonstrated when Uke lends their body to Tori, but really, it is about Toris understanding of Aikido. Uke can do what they will, with 1% resistance or 100% resistance. It shouldn't matter.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#365724 - 10/17/07 05:36 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Prizewriter]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Aikido isn't about techniques as such. Try not to focus on what Uke does



I can't help it, I'm interested in what's happening around me
As far realistic attacks go, what are people on here training against(or with-however you want to look at it), and at what level of experience?

For example what would you show someone in the first month of their training?
In the first year?
etc....

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#365725 - 10/17/07 06:42 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Unsoku was the big thing in Tomiki Aikido. Get the Aikido-ka use to moving in natural way while staying centred.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srzutokpJyo

Hopefully this clip still works. I have studied Aikido with these people before.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#365726 - 10/17/07 07:08 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Aikido isn't about techniques as such. Try not to focus on what Uke does, focus on your Aikido. Tori trains with Uke to learn about their Aikido. Of course good martial spirit is demonstrated when Uke lends their body to Tori, but really, it is about Toris understanding of Aikido.


Prizewriter has my vote for aikido black belt hall of fame... It appears he is far more closer to knowing what one should be training towards than some. The only thing one should be working on in aikido is yourself. Aikido waza is not something you do to someone. If you're looking for technique to do to someone, you might as well be doing jujitsu. IMHO, aikido waza should not even be called waza. The "form" is merely a learning framework to convey the fundamental principles of aiki. Once you understand what that is, all techniques become one, and one technique becomes many. Therein lies the genius of the Founder, and IMO, the reason why post-war aikido is profoundly different from its pre-war incarnation.

Quote:

Why not ?? They don't have to be able to do it straight away, but to be shown it would be a huge benifit in seeing where they are going.


There is a logical progression in all things. To show a beginner how to do things at a much higher level would be to stymie their progress. It's like focusing on the finger and missing all that heavenly glory...

However, as far as "realistic" attacks go... it's always real. Just the level of speed, intensity and resistance might be different for people at different levels.

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#365727 - 10/17/07 08:48 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Sempai's and Sensei's thank you for your guiding words I now have an understanding of why this is done. My upmost respects to you all

Osu

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#365728 - 10/17/07 01:02 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Dobbersky]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I came in late again. All these wonderful accurate answers have already been given. For those amongst us who do not recognize some of the arcane words, may I add my reactive version?

Uke is there to attack nage (or tori) so nage can learn and practice responses. If uke stands there like a stump, that is not an attack and no one learns anything. (Met any fierce trees lately?)

Uke's attack can be with any appropriate speed as long as it is dedicated. If nage gets hit, that is nage's own fault for not rotating or blending to take advantage of uke's energy.

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#365729 - 10/17/07 01:33 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
lukasa Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 2
evad, regarding low resistance:
One of my favorite aikido teachers is a pretty big guy. Maybe 6'4", probably 1.5 times my weight. I cannot get my grip around his wrist. Of everyone I train with, he is best at 'low resistance training' and maintaining a real martial connection. At first I thought it was because he was deigning to allow us to move him. Over time I've realized that he's so muscular it's the only way he can get and receive a signal and really do aikido. In demonstrations, when he's a bit distracted by talking while doing the techniques, moving faster, and I guess his techniques are 'doing themselves', you (uke) just fly like magic.
So low-resistance training can be done well but it needs to be informed by martial attention to every detail (by uke and nage) and a well-maintained connection throughout the technique. IMHO

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#365730 - 10/17/07 05:56 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Prizewriter]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Prize,
thanks for the clip - I always prefer demo's that aren't full of wrist grabs.

Did you compete in tomiki aikido ? If so how did you find it ?

I did a few times, and it was fun - but most matches I've seen or been in turn into a wrestling match of sorts. Nothing as clean or "blending" as seen in most demo's.

Quote:

There is a logical progression in all things. To show a beginner how to do things at a much higher level would be to stymie their progress. It's like focusing on the finger and missing all that heavenly glory...




eyrie, this is where you start to lose me. I want to look at both.

Quote:

Uke is there to attack nage (or tori) so nage can learn and practice responses. If uke stands there like a stump, that is not an attack and no one learns anything. (Met any fierce trees lately?)




I'm not talking about a stump, just someone balanced and defending themselves.

Quote:

So low-resistance training can be done well but it needs to be informed by martial attention to every detail (by uke and nage) and a well-maintained connection throughout the technique.




I agree. I just don't think ALL training should be done this way. You can't start at 100%, but you can work up to it.

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