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#365751 - 10/31/07 06:37 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
ABSOLUTELY NO STRIKES IN THE DOJO.... once the students unionize, you lose total control of the situation...

Atemi, however, on every technique...

(If I didn't hit you, I didn't do anything to you)...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365752 - 11/01/07 12:19 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

(If I didn't hit you, I didn't do anything to you)...


The corollary to that is, "move or get hit".

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#365753 - 11/01/07 07:37 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
ah, so when you say, "motion in stillness" you simply mean relaxed (non-tense) movement.

it takes a while to get that in Aikido (or any other MA for that matter), yes? hundreds of hours engaging in progressive 2-person drills, I'd think is the required to start seeing refinement and efficiency in movement being developed.

would you agree with that?

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#365754 - 11/01/07 10:58 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

Quote:

(If I didn't hit you, I didn't do anything to you)...


The corollary to that is, "move or get hit".



Paraphrased: If you get hit, it's your own fault.

Always liked that one. :-)

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#365755 - 11/01/07 06:15 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

ah, so when you say, "motion in stillness" you simply mean relaxed (non-tense) movement.

it takes a while to get that in Aikido (or any other MA for that matter), yes? hundreds of hours engaging in progressive 2-person drills, I'd think is the required to start seeing refinement and efficiency in movement being developed.

would you agree with that?


<off-topic>Nope... I mean motion in stillness. There's always going to be *some* movement. But sometimes, a subtle shift of the body or angle is all that is required. That's still movement. Where that movement originates is a totally different matter... and the difference between "internally" sourced movement or "externally" sourced movement.</off-topic>

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#365756 - 11/02/07 10:27 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Anonymous
Unregistered


From tori's POV, we use "pain" as a compliance tool for fully resistant opponents.

"Pain" being in the form of a light slap across the face to get kazushi in a entering technique, or making your uke really light on their toes in tembin nage from the elbow pressure.

Pain is a wonderful motivator, but it doesn't have to be in the form of joint or limb destruction (maybe if your life depended on it in a dark alley) in class. In my early years, the "pain" of kote gaeshi made me think more about the technique, and how it could be applied to different body types (small wrists, big wrists, weak, strong, etc). We have a student with flexible wrists to the point that kote gaeshi applied properly doesn't hurt, but applied properly with proper kazushi, and he goes every time.

Now, can someone define how aiki (as it was coined by Soemon Tekeda) can move a fully resistant opponent?

All the harmonous blending the in world isn't going to throw/project an opponent without a little bit of kazushi? Am I wrong?

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#365757 - 11/02/07 06:29 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

But here's a thought... aiki implies kuzushi ON or before contact. If you have to use atemi to get uke to move, in order to setup kuzushi, it means you haven't got it on contact. Which means, no aiki. Also, there are some people who will simply stand there and let you smack them, and still not move. So atemi may not ALWAYS be appropriate...




I'd say that if a person is still just standing there after you strike them, you better figure out what you're doing wrong, because your atemi has no Aiki.


--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#365758 - 11/02/07 07:39 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Ames]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I was referring to beginners and some not so beginners, who will not react to an atemi... they will stand there completely oblivious to the fact that an incoming strike is going to land. Now in training, and with a beginner, actually landing the strike isn't always the best way to help them learn how to receive.

PS: In any case, I view atemi as a "one strike, one kill" fight ender - it is a waste of energy to view it any other way. Bearing that in mind, actually hitting someone in a training environment, is not something I usually do. But the intent is always there. If the person is unable to read that intent and initiate preemptive measures, I will tone it down a lot more. And perhaps, merely indicate where the openings are...



Edited by eyrie (11/02/07 07:56 PM)

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#365759 - 11/04/07 06:05 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

In any case, I view atemi as a "one strike, one kill" fight ender - it is a waste of energy to view it any other way.




eyrie, could you elaborate a little on this. What about "set up" strikes, something to get a PDR? There not exactly fight ending by themselves, but open up a multitude of opportunities for locks, throws, submissions etc..

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#365760 - 11/04/07 07:05 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
PDR?

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

When most people talk about atemi as a "setup", they usually mean a feint (usually in an attempt to apply metsubishi) or light tap to create movement which then allows you to execute THE technique. (E.g. a feint to scratch across the eyes, before leading into shiho-nage). I don't agree with this view. A feint is pretending to strike, and a light tap is hardly a strike (although my light taps do have some interesting effects on some people).

The fact that a strike does lead into a technique is the result of uke physically responding to the strike - either they move to preempt the strike or it is a physical reaction as a result of the strike. In the first instance, if they move, you have to change the follow up. If they move in a non-predictable fashion then the follow up technique would have to be something that logically follows how they responded. That is hardly a "setup". I suppose you could call it a "setup" if they moved predictably, but it would hardly be a strike.

To me a "setup" is an attack to a vulnerable area which causes an involuntary but predictable reaction on uke's part (i.e. a strike to a nerve point).

For example, from a front lapel grab, if you hit or cut down on the kyusho point on the outside of the elbow crease (the "setup"), it not only numbs the arm, but also opens up the neck area for a follow thru shoto uke - thus ending the encounter. Of course, in training, we play nicely and do a gentle kubi nage or kokyu nage and throw the person away.

Or I might ignore their attack altogether and start to move into a position where just as they enter in, they will run into my strike. Usually this looks like various versions of kokyu nage, but to me, this is atemi, and my hand is the shoto. Even if I change it to a gentle kokyu nage to facilitate a beginner to take ukemi, the intent to strike/cut down is always there. So landing the atemi itself is not always appropriate, but the intent to do so is always there. Some people simply have no ki that you can ai with.

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