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#365711 - 10/16/07 08:09 AM Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Firstly my upmost respects to all of you

I wish to ask a question mainly from an observation I noticed when I trained for 3 months at an Aikido Dojo and when viewing forms etc on Youtube etc.

With regards to hand and foot strikes, the UKE tends to purposely put him/her-self 'off balance'. As a KarateKa this is not what we would do within the 'perfomance' of the strike. Also I study/teach Ashihara Karate (Ashihara karate has a large influx of Aikido techniques including Throwing Katas using Tenkan and Irimi), aswell as studying wado Ryu (Jujitsu/karate blend). We are taught to be firm and 'planted' when we deliver any strikes either from a hand technique or a foot technique.

I know there is a reason, so I await your guidance

Osu

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#365712 - 10/16/07 11:00 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Dobbersky]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Strikes by uke or nage?

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#365713 - 10/16/07 11:06 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
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Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Sorry, Strikes by the Uke

Osu
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#365714 - 10/16/07 11:07 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
Cory_Covert Offline
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Registered: 08/17/05
Posts: 30
Loc: LI New York
I think that he is reffering to uke. I was told it was to distract uke while performing the technique.

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#365715 - 10/16/07 11:52 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Cory_Covert]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Are you talking about Atemi or the mock attacks by the uke?
Atemi is what makes Aikido real, you have to soften up a guy that doesn't fully committ, lets say a guy throwing a jab, strikes to move him in the direction that you want to break him are very realistic.

Aikido look beautiful in the dojo, but its ugly and dirty on the streets. You here alot that fool broke my arm or neck! Imagine a guy hopping around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to save his arm and he doesn't know how to fall properly/go with the move. And he's getting hit to position him to fall on his head!!! Ugly and real.

Outside the long and pretty uniforms ain't nothing pretty about Aikido, that sh%^ hurts!


Edited by Neko456 (10/16/07 11:59 AM)
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#365716 - 10/16/07 12:14 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Neko456]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Oh yes I totally agree that Aikido is an excellent and Dangerous art I've been on the receiving end of a Heaven and Earth throw (ouch!). I believe Kano O Sensei declared when he watched some Aikidoka that Aikido was Judo Perfected (or something like that).

Appologies I'm not too sure if I got the Uke and Nage Correct. I meant to ask about the attacker being what looks like off balance when they strike.

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#365717 - 10/16/07 02:39 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Dobbersky]
A.J. Bryant Offline
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Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
If uke in a school aren't attacking with proper power, precision and skill, I think you'll find it's not the fault of the art, but rather with the school or sensei for not teaching proper attacks. Iíve experienced both good and bad skills in US Aikido dojo over the years. Many shihan have brought in high ranking teachers from other arts over the years to address just this issue.

To play Devilís advocate though, someone has to ask themselves what theyíre training for--defending against a professional fighter, or everyday self-defense...

From my experience, youíll find most Joe Blows out there are just not that well trained at fighting, and once the adrenaline kicks in and thereís anger involved or alcohol/drugs, you arenít likely to see well coordinated attacks. Aikido does a pretty good job of addressing these types of unarmed attacks.

Just my two cents.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#365718 - 10/16/07 05:35 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: A.J. Bryant]
lukasa Offline
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Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 2
To add to what AJ said well:

I've been training in aikido for about three years, and these off-balance attacks bug me. They really aren't necessary. You can do all aikido attacks in a solid balanced manner during training with any level partner, even in the faster multi-man attacks.

Ideally, the defender (nage) interacts with the attack in such a way as to take balance through counter attack, feint, rotation, and shifting position. As this happens, the attacker (uke) *sticks with the original attack* as much as possible (bend, duck, block, turn, whatever) and stays oriented on nage. If the technique is done properly, the attacker ends up with two choices: break off the attack and start over, or lose some balance. Uke does not have the choice to keep his/her balance in the proper technique because to do so would result in injury. The typical injuries from taking this third choice are dislocations, not bruises.

I think the danger of this third choice makes a lot of ukes take the fall, as it were, partly to protect themselves and partly to make it easier to nage to learn the technique. After nearly getting your nose broken a few times or your shoulder torqued to hell because you thought it would be realistic to give a little resistance, you're really motivated to just go with the flow of the technique.

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#365719 - 10/16/07 07:19 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: lukasa]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Firstly, uke is supposed to help tori learn how to apply aiki. Therefore, depending on tori's ability, uke needs to moderate the speed and intensity of their attack.

A clean, committed attack helps tori learn. The attack doesn't have to be strong, or fast, but it has to be committed. IOW, uke's intention must always be to hit tori - even if they "pull" the strike at the last moment - and it has to be commensurate with tori's ability to handle the attack.

Aikido waza is merely a learning framework in which uke is essentially a "dummy" for tori to learn how to apply aiki. It is not meant to be RBSD or specific technical responses to specified attacks. BUT, uke's attack should closely approximate what an attacker might do.

In koryu styles, the uke is the senior/teacher. In aikido, the roles are reversed. But that's not to say that uke can't be the "teacher" - the role distinction is arbitrary. So, as uke, and depending on tori's skill level, uke may allow themselves to be off-balanced in order for tori to more easily grasp the concepts of suki, ma-ai, sen, tsukuri, kuzushi, and kake.

If uke plants their weight and makes themselves immovable, nobody learns anything. In this case, a less skilled tori's only recourse may be to use atemi as a means to initiate movement on uke's part in order to lead into other movements - which detracts from the primary learning objective - i.e. how to apply aiki.

Obviously, as tori's skill level and ability increases, uke should increase the speed and level of intensity accordingly. This is as much a fault of the teacher as it is the student. Most beginners (particularly females) are loathed to strike at someone, let alone actually striking someone. This is something each individual needs to overcome themselves - and it is hardly the entire fault of the teacher.

However, the point is about control, and more specifically self-control. Everyone is there to help each other learn. Therefore, uke needs to be "good", for tori to become better. And it should ALWAYS be commensurate with tori's ability.

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#365720 - 10/16/07 08:24 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

If uke plants their weight and makes themselves immovable, nobody learns anything. In this case, a less skilled tori's only recourse may be to use atemi as a means to initiate movement on uke's part in order to lead into other movements - which detracts from the primary learning objective - i.e. how to apply aiki.




Wouldn't it teach them to apply aiki to a fully resistant opponent ?

Even with beginners, you could show them the mechanics involved and help get them used to it by being compliant - but also show them from the start the other end of the spectrum to demonstrate what thier eventually aiming for.

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#365721 - 10/17/07 12:10 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Wouldn't it teach them to apply aiki to a fully resistant opponent ?

Even with beginners, you could show them the mechanics involved and help get them used to it by being compliant - but also show them from the start the other end of the spectrum to demonstrate what thier eventually aiming for.




If you have to ask the question, you obviously have no idea what it is you're training towards....

Especially with beginners... developing aiki is not simply a mechanical thing (although basic Newtonian mechanics are involved). If it were, then anyone could develop aiki, right? Can you, for example, aiki just using your breath? Or, from a wrist or lapel grab, make uke such that they cannot lift their front foot and rob them of their power? Or from seiza, have uke push on your shoulders and they bounce off? These are more than just "mechanical" tricks.

Also, there are varying degrees of being able to use aiki against a resisting partner - even a partially resisting partner, let alone a fully resisting one. It takes a lot of solo work, and a lot of commitment. Certainly not something one can simply show to "beginners", especially those who still don't know their left foot from their right.

If uke chooses to plant their weight, a higher skilled practitioner would simply preempt the timing and/or change the technique so that any attempt to plant weight can be foiled. I would not expect a beginner to understand nor be able to do this without resorting to using muscular and shoulder strength - which is counter to the whole idea of aiki, or even ju. Also, having to change the technique robs tori from experiencing a learning opportunity.

Otherwise, why would the constant admonition still be to "relax"? If you can answer this correctly, then you will also begin to understand that it also does not matter what uke does.

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#365722 - 10/17/07 12:49 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

If you have to ask the question, you obviously have no idea what it is you're training towards....




I know what I'm training towards personally, but there is still alot I don't understand.

I can't get my head around training with no resistance or overcommitted attacks. I get the idea about slowly ramping it up for beginners, but at some level the training has to take on a more realistic approach to what tori is defending against.

Quote:

Certainly not something one can simply show to "beginners", especially those who still don't know their left foot from their right.




Why not ?? They don't have to be able to do it straight away, but to be shown it would be a huge benifit in seeing where they are going.

Quote:

Otherwise, why would the constant admonition still be to "relax"? If you can answer this correctly, then you will also begin to understand that it also does not matter what uke does.




I have know idea, but it's fun, I feel like I'm on a game show.

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#365723 - 10/17/07 04:26 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Aikido is as much about body movement as anything else. That is what kata and randori teach: how to move yourself and someone else. As Eyrie said, ultimeately is shouldn't matter what Uke does or how they do it. Aikido isn't about techniques as such. Try not to focus on what Uke does, focus on your Aikido.

Tori trains with Uke to learn about their Aikido. Of course good martial spirit is demonstrated when Uke lends their body to Tori, but really, it is about Toris understanding of Aikido. Uke can do what they will, with 1% resistance or 100% resistance. It shouldn't matter.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#365724 - 10/17/07 05:36 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Prizewriter]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Aikido isn't about techniques as such. Try not to focus on what Uke does



I can't help it, I'm interested in what's happening around me
As far realistic attacks go, what are people on here training against(or with-however you want to look at it), and at what level of experience?

For example what would you show someone in the first month of their training?
In the first year?
etc....

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#365725 - 10/17/07 06:42 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Unsoku was the big thing in Tomiki Aikido. Get the Aikido-ka use to moving in natural way while staying centred.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srzutokpJyo

Hopefully this clip still works. I have studied Aikido with these people before.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#365726 - 10/17/07 07:08 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Aikido isn't about techniques as such. Try not to focus on what Uke does, focus on your Aikido. Tori trains with Uke to learn about their Aikido. Of course good martial spirit is demonstrated when Uke lends their body to Tori, but really, it is about Toris understanding of Aikido.


Prizewriter has my vote for aikido black belt hall of fame... It appears he is far more closer to knowing what one should be training towards than some. The only thing one should be working on in aikido is yourself. Aikido waza is not something you do to someone. If you're looking for technique to do to someone, you might as well be doing jujitsu. IMHO, aikido waza should not even be called waza. The "form" is merely a learning framework to convey the fundamental principles of aiki. Once you understand what that is, all techniques become one, and one technique becomes many. Therein lies the genius of the Founder, and IMO, the reason why post-war aikido is profoundly different from its pre-war incarnation.

Quote:

Why not ?? They don't have to be able to do it straight away, but to be shown it would be a huge benifit in seeing where they are going.


There is a logical progression in all things. To show a beginner how to do things at a much higher level would be to stymie their progress. It's like focusing on the finger and missing all that heavenly glory...

However, as far as "realistic" attacks go... it's always real. Just the level of speed, intensity and resistance might be different for people at different levels.

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#365727 - 10/17/07 08:48 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Sempai's and Sensei's thank you for your guiding words I now have an understanding of why this is done. My upmost respects to you all

Osu

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#365728 - 10/17/07 01:02 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Dobbersky]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I came in late again. All these wonderful accurate answers have already been given. For those amongst us who do not recognize some of the arcane words, may I add my reactive version?

Uke is there to attack nage (or tori) so nage can learn and practice responses. If uke stands there like a stump, that is not an attack and no one learns anything. (Met any fierce trees lately?)

Uke's attack can be with any appropriate speed as long as it is dedicated. If nage gets hit, that is nage's own fault for not rotating or blending to take advantage of uke's energy.

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#365729 - 10/17/07 01:33 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
lukasa Offline
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Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 2
evad, regarding low resistance:
One of my favorite aikido teachers is a pretty big guy. Maybe 6'4", probably 1.5 times my weight. I cannot get my grip around his wrist. Of everyone I train with, he is best at 'low resistance training' and maintaining a real martial connection. At first I thought it was because he was deigning to allow us to move him. Over time I've realized that he's so muscular it's the only way he can get and receive a signal and really do aikido. In demonstrations, when he's a bit distracted by talking while doing the techniques, moving faster, and I guess his techniques are 'doing themselves', you (uke) just fly like magic.
So low-resistance training can be done well but it needs to be informed by martial attention to every detail (by uke and nage) and a well-maintained connection throughout the technique. IMHO

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#365730 - 10/17/07 05:56 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Prizewriter]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Prize,
thanks for the clip - I always prefer demo's that aren't full of wrist grabs.

Did you compete in tomiki aikido ? If so how did you find it ?

I did a few times, and it was fun - but most matches I've seen or been in turn into a wrestling match of sorts. Nothing as clean or "blending" as seen in most demo's.

Quote:

There is a logical progression in all things. To show a beginner how to do things at a much higher level would be to stymie their progress. It's like focusing on the finger and missing all that heavenly glory...




eyrie, this is where you start to lose me. I want to look at both.

Quote:

Uke is there to attack nage (or tori) so nage can learn and practice responses. If uke stands there like a stump, that is not an attack and no one learns anything. (Met any fierce trees lately?)




I'm not talking about a stump, just someone balanced and defending themselves.

Quote:

So low-resistance training can be done well but it needs to be informed by martial attention to every detail (by uke and nage) and a well-maintained connection throughout the technique.




I agree. I just don't think ALL training should be done this way. You can't start at 100%, but you can work up to it.

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#365731 - 10/17/07 09:15 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I'm not talking about a stump, just someone balanced and defending themselves.


Evad,

Imagine a person as a 4-legged chair missing 2 diagonal legs. A 2-legged chair doesn't stand up well, right? In which directions is the chair unbalanced?

There are 8 cardinal directions in which kuzushi can occur - the 8 points of a compass, plus up and down which makes 10. These represent the 10 general "holes" in which you can drop someone - whether they are resisting or not.

However, since everyone is different, in terms of mass, size, height, weight, and ability to root, affecting their CoG is going to be variable and will depend on YOUR own skill level.

The best thing to do is try it with a partner. Get them to stand in different stances, and try to push them gently in different directions. Which directions can they be easily off-balanced, and why? Think of the 2-legged chair...

Back to the issue of resistance. The basic premise of "ju" is pliancy and yielding - i.e. not meeting force with force. Extend this idea to resistance. Why meet resistance head on? If you try to do something to someone who is resisting, it is pointless to issue force along the line where you are going to meet with resistance.

You need to be like water (or electricity) and find the path of least resistance - which requires changing the technique, - i.e. changing the direction (either your's or theirs using tai/ashi sabaki), OR changing the range and/or timing. Remember, MA is a fluid thing - a continuous series of micro-adjustments of body position, footwork, distance, timing etc. BTW, ALL MAs work on these same principles.

If uke is simply standing there, whether they plant their weight or not, they're not giving you any force to work with - applying aiki in this case would be pointless. (Big reason why the aiki arts are PURELY defensive).

So, if they launch an attack and plant, all you need to do is get off the line and do nothing. Although, this is where the myriad opportunities for atemi present themselves . If someone consistently does that to me in a training scenario, in order to sabotage, all they will get for their efforts is a smack and a different counter.

As for "realistic" strikes - the way I teach strikes is a directed and focussed intent - i.e. shomen, is an open-handed strike to the face (that's what sho-men means) - usually to the nose bridge, but it could also be a hammer fist. yokomen is a strike to the temple or neck, but it could also be a cross/hook or haymaker. Sometimes we also do uraken/backfist, or gyaku/reverse knife hand (palm up or palm down).

Men tsuki is a straight punch or jab to the face. Chudan tuski can be done nakadaka ippon ken, uppercut, or as a simulated trust with a weapon - usually to the ribs.

Basically, any of the strikes found in kempo/karate/jujitsu can be used, but they're all variations of the 3 general directions - vertical, horizontal and sagittal. In all cases, the strikes are directed at soft target areas - which is why the speed and intensity needs to be moderated for people of different abilities.

Obviously, if they change up, you would have to do the same. It is never static. This is where randori comes in, and it never looks like the "pretty" technique one would do in learning/training mode, because the arbitrary roles of uke/tori is now dynamic and fluid. That's why it's not called randori (as in judo), but jiyuwaza (in Aikikai at least), because of the distinction as to who is uke and who is tori.

On a related note, this is the reason why Ueshiba was disinterested in Tomiki's idea to introduce shiai to aikido - because the competitive/sportive element of shiai is entirely counter to the whole idea of aiki as a purely defensive art.

You do KU right? Where in Qld are you? PM me.

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#365732 - 10/17/07 09:27 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
BTW, if you have a chance, do read George Ledyard's excellent response regarding "Active Resistance" here:
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=191839#post191839

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#365733 - 10/18/07 09:32 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<<If uke is simply standing there, whether they plant their weight or not, they're not giving you any force to work with - applying aiki in this case would be pointless. (Big reason why the aiki arts are PURELY defensive).>>

Thank you, eyrie. That was the clarification I was after.

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#365734 - 10/18/07 09:38 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Eyrie:

You make an excellent point, that bears repeating IMHV... that being


<<The attack doesn't have to be strong, or fast, but it has to be committed.

Precisely right!

Like many I have often seen "knife hand" strikes, punches which even if they hit would be completely irrelevent lacking any pretense of focus, power. There has to be weight behind the techniques... even when crawling through the steps the first few times.



Jeff

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#365735 - 10/19/07 12:20 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

So, if they launch an attack and plant, all you need to do is get off the line and do nothing. Although, this is where the myriad opportunities for atemi present themselves . If someone consistently does that to me in a training scenario, in order to sabotage, all they will get for their efforts is a smack and a different counter.




This is what I'm getting at. Training should at some point incorporate uke trying to "sabotage" you. This teaches people to adapt, not complain about being attacked wrong.

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#365736 - 10/19/07 04:12 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Hence Free Play/Randori in Aikido, where you don't know what you are going to get!

Much obliged for the comment Eyrie, though I haven't a clue about 99% of Aikido really!

Tomiki Aikido is getting closer and closer to Judo shiai. My friend was a course in England this year. It dealt with the new competition rules the JAA are bringing in. He said their are a lot of throws that are almost identical to Judo in the new rules. Not surprising really, considering Tomiki's background. There has always been a lot of crossover between Tomiki Aikido and Judo (e.g. Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata).
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#365737 - 10/19/07 07:58 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Prizewriter]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Training should at some point incorporate uke trying to "sabotage" you. This teaches people to adapt, not complain about being attacked wrong.




Quote:

Hence Free Play/Randori in Aikido, where you don't know what you are going to get!




Prizewriter, your forum title says it all. Aikido is 99% common sense - that's more than a fistful, I'm sure....

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#365738 - 10/19/07 11:31 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Speaking of 99%, check out this article regarding Aikido atemi:
http://www.mimagazine.com.au/Issue10_Oct/10_Atemi.htm

And this response to the article:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/index?id=1239

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#365739 - 10/21/07 09:57 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Prizewriter]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Hence Free Play/Randori in Aikido, where you don't know what you are going to get!




So we are back to the original question ,how realistic are the attacks being used in your randori ?

When doing tomiki aikido, I found the randori extremely good for training against resistance, but really predictable as it was done with uke using a tanto so you always new which hand was striking.

In my limited experience I never saw randori where uke was allowed to do what ever they liked(free sparring), which is why I keep asking about the attacks being used.

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#365740 - 10/21/07 10:13 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
iaibear Offline
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Loc: upstate New York
I guess I need some clarification about what YOU mean by randori. In our Aikido dojo when we do a "circle of fun", nage is in the middle surrounded by as many as six uke. This usually happens at the end of class where we have been practicing a single type or class of attack like defenses against a one-handed attack. The only rule is the uke attack one at a time, not necessarily with pauses in between and definitely not in any set rotation.

When all uke have attacked twice, nage switches places with one of them and it's off to the races again.

Is that "randori" as you understand it?

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#365741 - 10/21/07 10:53 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
evad74 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
The randori I trained with was one on one, uke attacking with a tanto and tori defending. There were a basic set of legal throws/locks, tori was allowed alot more than uke. it was full resistance but very rule bound, with uke/tori swapping roles halfway through.

I know different schools do randori differently, some with multiple attackers etc..., but I only metioned randori as it was brought up as an answer to resistance training.

I was more or less talking about uke being on balance and defending themselves against what tori/nage was doing, after uke initial attack, during just normal training.

eg- learning new technique, start with mechanics of it, go through it with a compliant partner to get a feel of where things are, also go through it with someone not compliant to show any gaps that will need work.

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#365742 - 10/22/07 12:39 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
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Loc: QLD, Australia
As I said before, being able to deal with a non-compliant uke is dependent on a multitude of things, most of all skill level. IOW, it is a degree of skill issue.

In any case, one must remain relaxed, keep one point, extend ki (ki is extended), keep weight underside, yada yada yada...

How you want to "test" your level of skill (or by extension, that of your partner), is up to you - whether it be done as part of normal training or in randori.

However, I would suggest, until you are able to remain relaxed under any circumstance, your partner should only provide you with as much "resistance" as you need to still remain relaxed.

If you find yourself, muscling thru the technique to make it work, it's a waste of time. Obviously the stronger person is going to win. However, if you want to learn to apply aiki properly, then it would behove you to learn how to use uke's strength against himself. And to do that, you need to start with being "relaxed".

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#365743 - 10/23/07 06:29 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
IMO, the biggest problem in training is that people forget that redirection requires something to redirect. They want to "go static" in attacks, or throw the "limp wrist" at you, so you not only have to provide the power to the defense, but to the attack as well.

Bokken and jo training will help that, but essentially it's gaining the mindset that you have to make it real to make it real. I've gone back to shooting pistols every weekend, and I can shoot like I'm shooting at a target, or I can point the gun at the target and say "bang, bang"... the results are dynamically different, as is the effect in Aikido.

I concentrate my teaching on "selected" students, who seem to have "it", and I tell them constantly that if they "do a half-a$$ed attack, they'll get half_a$$ed results". "Go for it", and then use your ukemi skills... if you hit me, it's my fault... and vice-versa.

I'm a pretty good teacher, and I try to make people feel that what they're doing will work in all circumstances if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. "Hit me if you can" is the level I work at, and I expect them to work at.

I've been satisfied with the results so far.

My senior student in Jujutsu just passed his Sandan test for Aikido, and the comments I got back from the "board" were that "it was the most amazing randori I've ever seen". Six man randori can keep you busy, and Tim went through them like a laxative.

"When it's real, it works... when it's "practiced", it sucks"... unless it's practiced the right way." WT

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#365744 - 10/30/07 11:37 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Atemi is ALWAYS appropriate (in the dojo I like a light slap across the attacker's face, and depending on the position of the attack relative to you)...as it sets up kazushi. Also, if I'm uke, I'll my adjust my resistance to the level of tori...I wouldn't stiff a white belt trying a basic technique unless he/she is grossly doing it wrong, but a the higher ranks, I'll shut you down on at least the first or maybe second technique and make tori think about adjusting to another class of technique (i.e switching from an uchi series to a soto series)...

So, to answer the main question, strike appropriate to the rank, (i.e if you're going to execute a jodan tsuki, then as uke try to hit/touch him/her in the head...and as tori use tai sabaki to start the technique, from there go about what you know.

I've seen other schools have uke throw a strike to the head (yokomen, shomen, jodan, etc) and have the strike still be 6 inches away from the target! How is that beneficial for anyone? Hit him/her in the head, as tori, either you'll get hit in the head, or apply principle #1 tai sabaki (body movement) and get out of the way!

Granted I'd want a white belt missing my head by 6 six inches, since a majority of new students don't know how to throw a punch. But it doesn't help anyone learn distance and timing if you throw a punch and kick that won't induce me to move. The long-winded answer is, the better (realistic) an attack, the better the training should go. This is not to say it's the best way, but, from my experience, teaching the new students early about the importance of executing a good strike will only make them better students/teachers as they grow. Sure, you'll get hit here and there, maybe even in the face, but at least they won't get caught up in the...hey...you didn't fall when I threw you...uhh...perhaps a nice slap across my face as you were setting up shihonage would have helped set my head/weight back on my heel and side of the foot (of course, couple that with the "twisting of the wrist and upward pressure on the arm/elbow as you wrap it around your forehead as you senkai") and maybe then I would have fallen???

Atemi is always appropriate.

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#365745 - 10/30/07 12:31 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they
Anonymous
Unregistered


Follow up...

Not sure about other schools, but in our cirriculum, brown and up, we sometimes spend a few minutes doing chigari randori...full resistance WITH counter...so uke can fully resist and counter...this is fun with rubber/wooden knives, since it helps you think about trying not to think about getting 1 stuck with the knife, 2 keeping your distance away from the free limb, 3 saying to yourself, don't go to the ground.

I've trained with a group from Canada (same style) and they way they taught at/to the higher ranks was eye-opening. The first 2 techniques were shut down...not because they wanted to show the americans they were better, but this is how the Hombu trained. Sometimes I'd try the technique 3 or 4 times.. nothing!...then they would make a couple minor adjustments to getting kazushi and bam! they'd fall.

Sorry to get off-topic, strikes help and are key, but the most important principle of aikido is kazushi! And a strike can certainly help you get it! Be it mae-giri...where does the weight go on the attacker? Forward, because usually, he/she leans forward to absorb, make miss the attack, perfect for mae hiki otoshi. Or iriminage? What if you're entering, parrying the strike and you go to execute iriminage? What if I stiff you by dropping my weight forward and leaning into your attempt to redirect my head? Hmmm... how about stepping thru and grabbing a little hair?? Sounds sissy, but you've now pulled me up and back and have set my weight back...now you can execute perhaps some stee(do) and do hadaka jime or simply continue with ushiro kata/kami otoshi.

I can't believe how many posts I've seen where this fundamental principle isn't mentioned more often in advice. redirect this, redirect that...ok....sure you can turn me around in a circle, but if you don't set my weight in a way that catches me leaning while you're doing it...you won't throw me...simple physics.

Sorry about being esoteric for the new student or those still learning the names of techniques

mae-giri: front kick
shihonage: 4 corner throw (may be described differently at other schools)
ushiro hadaka jime: rear naked choke
ushiro kata/kami otoshi: rear shoulder/head/hair drop
mukai daoshi / iriminage: entering throw (made famous by Steven Seagal)
kazushi: disrupt one's balance
mae hiki otoshi: front pulling drop
atemi: strike

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#365746 - 10/30/07 06:29 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Atemi is ALWAYS appropriate (in the dojo I like a light slap across the attacker's face, and depending on the position of the attack relative to you)...as it sets up kazushi.


I think the topic relates to atemi waza as it pertains to uke (i.e. uke providing a realistic attack). Considering that the roles of uke/tori are arbitrary, and are 2 sides of the same coin, it follows that the same applies to tori as well.

But here's a thought... aiki implies kuzushi ON or before contact. If you have to use atemi to get uke to move, in order to setup kuzushi, it means you haven't got it on contact. Which means, no aiki. Also, there are some people who will simply stand there and let you smack them, and still not move. So atemi may not ALWAYS be appropriate...

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#365747 - 10/31/07 11:04 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I can see your point and see how I focused more on the tori side of things.

Ok. Atemi waza. Striking techniques. In my school, a properly executed strike is critical to beginning the technique. Example. A poor strike to the head accomplishes nothing. If I see a yokomen uchi being executed and I can clearly see it's going to be short of the target by, say, 6 inches...there is nothing that uke has done to induce me to blend with the attack... there has been no disruption of mai ai. Why get out of my center, when the strike will simply pass right by my head?

That being said, if uke clearly attacks with intention (and follows through) is still short by 6 inches or less, as tori, you can see by simple physics that uke's momentum will already put him/her in an off-balanced position...their arm extended, perhaps showing me their back...good setup for ue ude garame, ushiro daki otoshi, kannuke hikitate, a yoko sutemi like sode waki dori or maybe just a good old ushiro hadaka jime.

So, to the original poster, I would say, a good attack is needed for everyone to grow.

From tori POV, I would argue that atemi is always appropriate, but not necessary* (see why below).

Last, to eyrie's point....distance and timing is critical to successfully executing a technique. That said, one's window to get kazushi is extremely small. You may have it on contact and lose it. And let's be realistic here...At my level, I expect my attackers to give me nothing. If I don't have the technique, don't fall. If my attacker comes in hard with a chudan tsuki and sinks 60% his/her weight on their front foot (because of a good shotokan strike ) I have to decide whether I nagashi away or irimi in...I choose uchi nagashi...maybe kubi otoshi, as I parry and seize the arm, uke is now connected to me, a sugiashi back to pick up any slack in the connection and get uke more forward on his/her front foot, then execute the otoshi. Where's the atemi to aid in kazushi??? Not necessary, but that front-kick to get the body leaning forward sure may help.

well, using that same attack, and now the attacker is 250lbs...for a split second, you have kazushi as the front foot is settling down...maybe a good uchi irimi and ko soto gari? Tough and only realistic in the dojo in a line drill in a cooperative spirit. Kata garuma or koshinage? Not on this monster. Ok. Soto irimi. Iriminage/Mukae Daoshi? Get real. If I were him, I'd stiff you simply with sheer size and by leaning forward. So as you put it...where's the "aiki"...it was there, but it's not now.

Ok. You missed the ko soto gari, kata garuma, iriminage, etc. how are you going to move this monster? Atemi, maybe??? Well, you've already committed to an uchi irimi...I would say...anything to set the attackers weight back, like a chin strike (Nodowa) or redirecting the head to now make the 250lb attacker more like 180lbs. Or maybe some ashi waza...hiza oshita oshi?

*Whew...sorry to get long winded, but unless we've been studying and practicing Aikido (whatever style) for over 20+ years (not that I have, I still have a lifetime to go), our opportunities to find kazushi and exploit it in that split second only come with years and years of training. So, while atemi may not always be necessary, it's certainly helps.

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#365748 - 10/31/07 01:29 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
mae-giri: front kick
shihonage: 4 corner throw (may be described differently at other schools)
ushiro hadaka jime: rear naked choke
ushiro kata/kami otoshi: rear shoulder/head/hair drop
mukai daoshi / iriminage: entering throw (made famous by Steven Seagal)
kazushi: disrupt one's balance
mae hiki otoshi: front pulling drop
atemi: strike

Thank you. I have not been at this art very long ("since 1994" is not a lifetime). With the exceptions of Shihonage, ushiro, irimi and atemi, these terms are new to me. Our Burmese head instructor does not speak Japanese.

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#365749 - 10/31/07 03:00 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You're welcome.

In our style, we never learned the first technique (Ikkyo) as that: Ikkyo. Rather the mechanics of getting into the technique Robuse (arm rowing). In our style, it falls into the classification of te waza (hand techniques, sub-class uchi nigiri ho...inward turning of the hand with respect to the thumb. And Nikkyo (another uchi nigiri ho) as hiji kudaki (elbow smashing), Sankyo (another uchi series) as yukichigai (inward turning of the elbow), and so on...there are 7 techniques in the uchi series and 7 in the soto series (outward turning of the thumb) ie. kote gaeshi, tembin nage/tenshin, ue ude garame, shihonage, etc.

We don't believe there to be different verions of "Ikkyo" like ikkyomote with relation to your stance i.e ai hanmi, etc. Ikkyo/robuse is just that (arm rowing to get the attackers elbow exposed and wrist turned inward with the thumb pointing up.. no matter how you were attacked and how you were standing...

But, I seem to be getting waay off-topic...atemi is always appropriate

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#365750 - 10/31/07 03:36 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
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Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

But, I seem to be getting waay off-topic...atemi is always appropriate



I'll go with that :-)

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#365751 - 10/31/07 06:37 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
ABSOLUTELY NO STRIKES IN THE DOJO.... once the students unionize, you lose total control of the situation...

Atemi, however, on every technique...

(If I didn't hit you, I didn't do anything to you)...

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#365752 - 11/01/07 12:19 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

(If I didn't hit you, I didn't do anything to you)...


The corollary to that is, "move or get hit".

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#365753 - 11/01/07 07:37 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
ah, so when you say, "motion in stillness" you simply mean relaxed (non-tense) movement.

it takes a while to get that in Aikido (or any other MA for that matter), yes? hundreds of hours engaging in progressive 2-person drills, I'd think is the required to start seeing refinement and efficiency in movement being developed.

would you agree with that?

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#365754 - 11/01/07 10:58 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

Quote:

(If I didn't hit you, I didn't do anything to you)...


The corollary to that is, "move or get hit".



Paraphrased: If you get hit, it's your own fault.

Always liked that one. :-)

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#365755 - 11/01/07 06:15 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

ah, so when you say, "motion in stillness" you simply mean relaxed (non-tense) movement.

it takes a while to get that in Aikido (or any other MA for that matter), yes? hundreds of hours engaging in progressive 2-person drills, I'd think is the required to start seeing refinement and efficiency in movement being developed.

would you agree with that?


<off-topic>Nope... I mean motion in stillness. There's always going to be *some* movement. But sometimes, a subtle shift of the body or angle is all that is required. That's still movement. Where that movement originates is a totally different matter... and the difference between "internally" sourced movement or "externally" sourced movement.</off-topic>

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#365756 - 11/02/07 10:27 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Anonymous
Unregistered


From tori's POV, we use "pain" as a compliance tool for fully resistant opponents.

"Pain" being in the form of a light slap across the face to get kazushi in a entering technique, or making your uke really light on their toes in tembin nage from the elbow pressure.

Pain is a wonderful motivator, but it doesn't have to be in the form of joint or limb destruction (maybe if your life depended on it in a dark alley) in class. In my early years, the "pain" of kote gaeshi made me think more about the technique, and how it could be applied to different body types (small wrists, big wrists, weak, strong, etc). We have a student with flexible wrists to the point that kote gaeshi applied properly doesn't hurt, but applied properly with proper kazushi, and he goes every time.

Now, can someone define how aiki (as it was coined by Soemon Tekeda) can move a fully resistant opponent?

All the harmonous blending the in world isn't going to throw/project an opponent without a little bit of kazushi? Am I wrong?

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#365757 - 11/02/07 06:29 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
Ames Offline
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Quote:

But here's a thought... aiki implies kuzushi ON or before contact. If you have to use atemi to get uke to move, in order to setup kuzushi, it means you haven't got it on contact. Which means, no aiki. Also, there are some people who will simply stand there and let you smack them, and still not move. So atemi may not ALWAYS be appropriate...




I'd say that if a person is still just standing there after you strike them, you better figure out what you're doing wrong, because your atemi has no Aiki.


--Chris
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#365758 - 11/02/07 07:39 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Ames]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I was referring to beginners and some not so beginners, who will not react to an atemi... they will stand there completely oblivious to the fact that an incoming strike is going to land. Now in training, and with a beginner, actually landing the strike isn't always the best way to help them learn how to receive.

PS: In any case, I view atemi as a "one strike, one kill" fight ender - it is a waste of energy to view it any other way. Bearing that in mind, actually hitting someone in a training environment, is not something I usually do. But the intent is always there. If the person is unable to read that intent and initiate preemptive measures, I will tone it down a lot more. And perhaps, merely indicate where the openings are...



Edited by eyrie (11/02/07 07:56 PM)

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#365759 - 11/04/07 06:05 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

In any case, I view atemi as a "one strike, one kill" fight ender - it is a waste of energy to view it any other way.




eyrie, could you elaborate a little on this. What about "set up" strikes, something to get a PDR? There not exactly fight ending by themselves, but open up a multitude of opportunities for locks, throws, submissions etc..

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#365760 - 11/04/07 07:05 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
PDR?

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

When most people talk about atemi as a "setup", they usually mean a feint (usually in an attempt to apply metsubishi) or light tap to create movement which then allows you to execute THE technique. (E.g. a feint to scratch across the eyes, before leading into shiho-nage). I don't agree with this view. A feint is pretending to strike, and a light tap is hardly a strike (although my light taps do have some interesting effects on some people).

The fact that a strike does lead into a technique is the result of uke physically responding to the strike - either they move to preempt the strike or it is a physical reaction as a result of the strike. In the first instance, if they move, you have to change the follow up. If they move in a non-predictable fashion then the follow up technique would have to be something that logically follows how they responded. That is hardly a "setup". I suppose you could call it a "setup" if they moved predictably, but it would hardly be a strike.

To me a "setup" is an attack to a vulnerable area which causes an involuntary but predictable reaction on uke's part (i.e. a strike to a nerve point).

For example, from a front lapel grab, if you hit or cut down on the kyusho point on the outside of the elbow crease (the "setup"), it not only numbs the arm, but also opens up the neck area for a follow thru shoto uke - thus ending the encounter. Of course, in training, we play nicely and do a gentle kubi nage or kokyu nage and throw the person away.

Or I might ignore their attack altogether and start to move into a position where just as they enter in, they will run into my strike. Usually this looks like various versions of kokyu nage, but to me, this is atemi, and my hand is the shoto. Even if I change it to a gentle kokyu nage to facilitate a beginner to take ukemi, the intent to strike/cut down is always there. So landing the atemi itself is not always appropriate, but the intent to do so is always there. Some people simply have no ki that you can ai with.

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#365761 - 11/04/07 10:58 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
Victor Smith Offline
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I always got the impression the use of atemi (such as in the earlier Usheiba texts) was to be a stop hit, a way to insert an opening into an attack, to give time to then move into position.

A sufficiently advance technician does not necessarily need strikes but can more sufficiently well to get to the point a technique execution is complete in itself.

But if you can't move that well, atemi creates an opening for the less skilled, or a matter of convenience in reducing attack for all.

Personally I find the purest aiki throw when someone is trying hard to deck me to flow a nukite into their throat and watch them throw themselves away. Not as a karate strike but a flowing spear.

I move far less than great and prefer to use a sledgehammer to perform my atemi these days. Makes the rest much similar.

My instructor always maintained that aikido worked because of pain and that you weren't throwing, projecting, locking anyone they were doing it to themselves to get away from pain, or the perception of the pain that would be coming.
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#365762 - 11/04/07 04:03 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

PDR?




Pre determined response. Basically what you said about "set up's" causing an involuntary but predictable reaction on uke's part. I'd consider them to still be atemi, but I get what you mean now. Thanks.

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#365763 - 11/04/07 04:07 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: Victor Smith]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

But if you can't move that well, atemi creates an opening for the less skilled




yeah that would be me

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#365764 - 12/05/07 04:36 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
SBudda Offline
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Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
I'm probably way too late to enter this conversation, but that never stopped me from chiming in before

I should probably start off by saying; when I first started Aikido, I totally agreed with your question. Prior to taking Aikido, I had only trained a little in JKD; so of course I wanted to immediately learn how to work with jabs. I was introduced to mune tsuki, shomenuchi, etc. and I was disappointed.

Why should I learn how to defeat fake attacks when I didn't fight that way? I would never in my life perform an overhead chop to someone's head. Why was I told to commit my weight to a mune tsuki (middle punch), when every striking art in the world teaches to remain centered at all times?

So I performed the #1 most popular mistake that a student can make - I asked my sensei. Specifically, I asked what Aikidokas did in the face of a jab. Like any good sensei, he knew the answer, and showed me (ouch!). This performed two things: it showed me that there was a method to defeat the jab; and it showed me why we typically have uke do a slightly exaggerated weight transfer.

The answer of course (this is a blending art after all) was timing and the lead. Basically, for all strikes there is a moment where the weight transfer occurs. For a good boxer (for example) the amount of time that he/she is off balance is minimal - but the moment still occurs. If you blend at the right moment, and provide the proper lead (with atemi), the technique will work just fine. So why don't we do that in class?

Answer? It's too bloody hard!

Most Aikido n00bs are focused on their own hands or feet; ie. what they are doing [step, step, change hands, turn tenkan]. Intermediate Aikidokas start realizing that what they do is less important than what uke does; ie. they start thinking [extend his ki downward, keep the lead, blend and accelerate]. I don't know what expert Aikidokas thinks, but it's probably something like [hello attacker, oh look - flowers, why did you just fall down?]

If you've studied Aikido for long enough, you've likely heard the concept that "if the lead is good, you can screw-up the rest of it and still be ok". You've also heard that this is not a transitive property. If you have a crummy lead and the rest is textbook perfect, you probably won't get passed the lead in the first place.

Since the lead is SO important, it makes sense to lengthen the amount of time that the lead can be applied. So we shift our weight just a little more than we may normally. Aikido is hard enough when you're just starting out that every little bit helps. If it took you 2 months to get a semi-nice kokyo-ho lead before you started to learn how to chain that into ikkyo - there wouldn't be many students left.

It's much more interesting for the student - and I'd imagine the instructor - to touch on a number of different techniques, without trying to beat them to death on the first exposure to them. You're already trying to learn what a lead is, how different body sizes effect technique, what the stupid technique is anyway, how to avoid opening yourself up for kaishi, etc. So many things to think about, all of which can be defeated by bad timing. So you do it slow, and a bit exaggerated. But it's ok, I think for the following reason:

If you time your lead properly - you will start your technique before the exaggerated part of the attack even comes into play.

I found this out when I asked about the jab. From the uke's perspective (mine), the way sensei's lead felt; when I threw a jab or a men-tsuki; both the same. In both cases I was lead before I could recover, and hit the ground before I knew what happened. From nage's perspective (mine), the difference was between getting hit in the nose and actually doing a technique.

My timing isn't nearly as good as my sensei's. Which is as it should be (for now at least!). So I appreciate the little gimmies that I'm given. I appreciate it more when I improve and the gimmies are taken away!

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#365765 - 12/05/07 08:25 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: SBudda]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
I agree with most of what you said, training needs to be catered to all skill levels. I have no problem with training with overexaggerated attacks, I just don't think thats where it should end. The best way to get people to improve their skills is to push them, not stagnate with what works for them.

Quote:

So why don't we do that in class?

Answer? It's too bloody hard!




For me this is the perfect reason too do it. You don't have to train like this all the time, but it will always be too bloody hard unless you push yourselves.

Apart from realistic attacks & resistance, the other thing about aikido that often comes up is the time it can take to develop good skills. In my rubbish opinion , it will take longer if all training is co-operative/overcommitted.

I'd rather train first in a way that lets me develop understanding of a principle/technique, and then second to apply it realistically. And I would rather be doing this from the outset of training, not waiting until I've reached a certain belt level or something. Better to have 1 or 2 things you can use confidently, than 50 things your still working your way up to using under any circumstances.

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#365766 - 12/06/07 08:37 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: SBudda]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Most Aikido n00bs are focused on their own hands or feet; ie. what they are doing [step, step, change hands, turn tenkan]. Intermediate Aikidokas start realizing that what they do is less important than what uke does; ie. they start thinking [extend his ki downward, keep the lead, blend and accelerate]. I don't know what expert Aikidokas thinks, but it's probably something like [hello attacker, oh look - flowers, why did you just fall down?]


I'm hardly an expert, but I believe Aikido is NOT so much focusing on what uke is doing, but more so how YOU respond to uke. The focus should always be on you - maintaining your own postural alignment, structural integrity and central equilibrium, whilst at the same time disrupting uke's ability to do the same. Just my $0.005.

Dave, I have a big problem with the way and context in which the word "realistic" is being used. To most, "realistic" implies a physical circumstance in which one does something to an attacker resulting in them being disabled, maimed or killed (and vice versa). Obviously, this has implications on issues of training safety. So, to me, it's more a matter of DEGREE OF CONTROL rather than one of "realism".

IMHO, ALL aikido is realistic... it has to be... to remain relevant as budo, bujutsu or even bugei. If it weren't then it would merely be a dance. But that's not to say that one cannot learn important martial principles even within the context of the dance.

However, I think there needs to be a distinction between learning mode i.e. kihon waza and application mode i.e. henka and oyo waza - it's not the same thing.

Grady already mentioned this before somewhere... using the example of shihonage. In kihon practice, the throw is executed by drawing uke's wrist straight down the spine. This is primarily for uke's safety. In applied mode, a subtle change of the angle of direction of throw will result in a shoulder dislocation. Obviously, if one were to apply it "realistically" in training, one would very quickly run out of ukes.

Also, if you are familiar with the standing jujitsu straight arm locks, there are at least 5 or 6 points in the execution of shihonage at which you can pop the elbow joint capsule, dislocate the shoulder, or change the throw entirely - or a combination of all of the above.

I think it's important to understand that Aikido is simply an evolution in training methods, and was designed to accomplish the same goals of the root arts from which it was formulated.

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#365767 - 12/06/07 09:25 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Dave, I have a big problem with the way and context in which the word "realistic" is being used. To most, "realistic" implies a physical circumstance in which one does something to an attacker resulting in them being disabled, maimed or killed (and vice versa). Obviously, this has implications on issues of training safety. So, to me, it's more a matter of DEGREE OF CONTROL rather than one of "realism".

IMHO, ALL aikido is realistic... it has to be... to remain relevant as budo, bujutsu or even bugei. If it weren't then it would merely be a dance. But that's not to say that one cannot learn important martial principles even within the context of the dance.




I was commissioned to teach on Wednesday night, and "realistic attacks" were both called for and executed. I did nothing to the ukes except redirect their energy from the point of contact... and people were flying all over the room. I don't know how anybody else defines "realistic", but they were throwing punches, strikes, and grabbing me in every way imaginable, and I was doing the same thing over and over to them... simply redirecting them in directions they weren't prepared to go.

As I was executing the techniques, I was explaining how and when my Aikido became jujutsu, and when the jujutsu became Aikido. Essentially, if a technique requires more than redirection, it's jujutsu... if it's "all energy", it's Aikido... but clearly the explanation was over some of their heads.

They became especially frustrated when I told them that the kihon forms that they practice as ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo...etc. were all jujutsu rote teaching methods, and to turn it into Aikido, they needed to learn how to redirect energy to make the techniques from those forms.

If you've ever wondered where I got my "handle", it's from the one instruction I give in class... twist the wrist...

Redirection and twisting the wrist will accomodate any technique you need for self defense.
Quote:

However, I think there needs to be a distinction between learning mode i.e. kihon waza and application mode i.e. henka and oyo waza - it's not the same thing.




Learning the steps of anything is a mechanical process... I do this, and then this...etc. Redirection is an "absorbed" reflection of that process in which you extend the other person's energy to make the technique do what you were originally doing to them mechanically using force. It takes the "jujutsu understanding" of the body's mechanics, and the "Aikido understanding" of the redirection and management of energy. Throw a little "swordfighting understanding" of movement, and you have a very adaptable art that works well in any type of combat.

Combined with the "redirection" ideal, is the idea of striking back and "hitting when you can". Strikes provide some of the defense against grapplers, along with redirecting them, but in martial arts it's never wrong to hit your opponent.

Normally, strikes are helpful in providing entry into irimi techniques, redirecting the ki of the attacker, and preventing the attacker from hitting you as you enter your technique... so the multiple uses of strikes in Aikido don't provide "one answer".

One instructor I had in Aikido used to tell us to "think of Aikido as the answer to a question"... your attacker asks a question with his attack, and you provide him with the answer through your technique. When you think this way, the "process" of movements in "doing Aikido" are simplified, and you can work on timing, centering, and other things to make it stronger. My class last night was on "redirection", and I thought it went well for the most part. I'll know the next time I attack one of the students and see their reaction and whether it's changed.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365768 - 12/06/07 09:55 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Dave, I have a big problem with the way and context in which the word "realistic" is being used. To most, "realistic" implies a physical circumstance in which one does something to an attacker resulting in them being disabled, maimed or killed (and vice versa). Obviously, this has implications on issues of training safety. So, to me, it's more a matter of DEGREE OF CONTROL rather than one of "realism".




I can see what you mean, I didn't phrase that properly. I'm talking about the realism of application at the beginning of an attack, the recieving/entry into an attack, not the finishing of a technique to disable someone.

This goes back to dealing with unpredictable attacks from someone defending themselves as well as attacking. More like training with a sparring partner, not an uke. Obviously control has to be mantained by all parties involved (everyone has to go to work tommorrow), but that comes back to yours and wristtwisters examples of not killing someone with the direction the technique takes at the end.

Quote:

However, I think there needs to be a distinction between learning mode i.e. kihon waza and application mode i.e. henka and oyo waza - it's not the same thing.




I do make the distinction in my previous post's, that there is definetly not only room for both, but a need for both.

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#365769 - 12/06/07 10:45 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Precisely.... I don't know what "realistic" means either
To me, "realistic" means, you really try to hit me (and I will do the same). The same goes for grabs... pull in and strike, pull in and take down etc.. The fact that I don't knock you out, or break your wrist in training is a matter of degree - of both intent and control. "On the street" is a totally different matter. Which is why I prefer not to use the word at all. To me, there is only intent and control.

Quote:

As I was executing the techniques, I was explaining how and when my Aikido became jujutsu, and when the jujutsu became Aikido. Essentially, if a technique requires more than redirection, it's jujutsu... if it's "all energy", it's Aikido... but clearly the explanation was over some of their heads.


Exactly... it's all "mechanics" - from Archimedes to Newton. It wasn't until I studied jujitsu that I fully appreciated aikido for what it is, and vice versa.

Quote:

They became especially frustrated when I told them that the kihon forms that they practice as ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo...etc. were all jujutsu rote teaching methods, and to turn it into Aikido, they needed to learn how to redirect energy to make the techniques from those forms.


I think the hardest thing to convey to people is that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo etc... are not "techniques" (as in the way to do something to someone), but merely "outer shapes" of movement in which the principles of Aikido are conveyed. People tend to become enslaved by the form, i.e. this is HOW the "technique" is "applied", when it is simply a learning tool to explore the basic premise of energy redirection.

Quote:

Learning the steps of anything is a mechanical process... I do this, and then this...etc. Redirection is an "absorbed" reflection of that process in which you extend the other person's energy to make the technique do what you were originally doing to them mechanically using force. It takes the "jujutsu understanding" of the body's mechanics, and the "Aikido understanding" of the redirection and management of energy. Throw a little "swordfighting understanding" of movement, and you have a very adaptable art that works well in any type of combat.


Wonderfully succinct! And bears repeating.... because therein lies the beautiful simplicity and wonderful complexity that is aikido.

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#365770 - 12/06/07 11:13 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I can see what you mean, I didn't phrase that properly. I'm talking about the realism of application at the beginning of an attack, the recieving/entry into an attack, not the finishing of a technique to disable someone.


Practically I don't see what any difference that makes. If I as "uke" attempt to hit you and you don't respond appropriately, you'll get hit. Bearing in mind, the distinction between uke and nage/tori/shi'te is arbitrary and solely for learning purposes. The fact that I pull the strike to avoid smashing the bridge of your nose, or collarbone, within a training context, is a matter of control. Irrespective, the "attack" could be a sloppy, limp-wristed "wet lettuce" for all I care... the redirection of energy (i.e force) in such a way that it affects uke's structural integrity is essentially the same. I cannot see why it would be different, except in terms of degree of subtlety.

The only difference seems to be an implication that "realistic" equates to intent. Why not just call it "intent" then?

Quote:

This goes back to dealing with unpredictable attacks from someone defending themselves as well as attacking. More like training with a sparring partner, not an uke.


Grady has mentioned this before too... if uke changes, you have to change up. It would be silly, not to mention, un-aikido to force the technique where it is obviously not going to work.

The issue I have with this is, in learning mode, changing up to foil the "technique" robs nage of the learning experience. It also robs uke of a valuable learning experience... that of learning how to read nage's "holes".

Quote:

I do make the distinction in my previous post's, that there is definetly not only room for both, but a need for both.


Obviously... but it is also dependent on the individual's level of skill and ability.

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#365771 - 12/07/07 05:25 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Practically I don't see what any difference that makes.




Eyrie, you have to look for what's hidden in plain sight . All I'm talking about in terms of being realistic is nage testing themselves, and uke having some brains and self preservation.

In this instance uke should not just attack, but attack smart. Not overcommitted (would you attack someone like that?), not prearranged or telegraphed (would you attack someone like that?), not just attacking, but defending themselves against what ever you try to do(isn't that what you would do?). This is what I meant buy more realistic. The intent is there yes, but I can have intent on an overcommitted, telegraphed, prearranged attack and that is where the difference is. Thats why I wouldn't use the word intent.


Quote:

Grady has mentioned this before too... if uke changes, you have to change up. It would be silly, not to mention, un-aikido to force the technique where it is obviously not going to work.




Then nage learns when it's best to apply aikido, and in the times it goes bad, to pull their sh1t together and go with it. What's so bad about that? to me that's a good lesson. I wouldn't ever count on any art to be the only answer to everything. Wristtwister said it himself where his aikido blurs to jujutsu and back again.


Quote:

The issue I have with this is, in learning mode, changing up to foil the "technique" robs nage of the learning experience. It also robs uke of a valuable learning experience... that of learning how to read nage's "holes".




Ive already said that there is a need for some training to be slow and cooperative, that's just common sense . But some training in learning mode should also include uke trying to "foil" the technique, nage is not robbed of learning but gains greater understanding of what's involved.


Quote:

Obviously... but it is also dependent on the individual's level of skill and ability.




Of course it does, but that doesn't mean it can't be done from the very early on in someones training. Like everything, you adjust it to suit the skills of the practitioner.

I went to a bjj school during a night off from regular training recently and during free rolling they had certain techniques you couldn't do on the white belts, but apart from these it was game on. (I had to laugh at this considering I'm a no belt and got pretzeled up all night long, but this guy that was killing me kept saying "you can't do that,I'm a white belt" )

You obviously have far more experience with aikido than I do, but my views toward training are the same across the board, whether it be aikido, karate, a spelling bee or anything else.

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#365772 - 12/07/07 06:27 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Whoa up there a second, Evad...
Quote:

Wristtwister said it himself where his aikido blurs to jujutsu and back again.




No, I said that my striking techniques blurred between jujutsu, karate and Aikido... I know exactly where my jujutsu turns to Aikido and vice-versa. Mechanical manipulation is jujutsu... energy manipulation is Aikido. I know exactly when I have to "help" a technique because I didn't get it right "exactly" on my entry, or lost it through the lead...

No, I don't stop and start over, I simply "help" it to succeed by applying additional manipulation... turning it to jujutsu. Can the students tell the difference?... I doubt it.

Once you actually understand "lead", and I'm not talking intellectually, but by feeling when you have the lead and when you don't, Aikido becomes much easier to do. If you understand the techniques from their "energy structure" and how they have to be redirected to work, it changes your ikkyo, nikyo, etc. into energy patterns rather than 'techniques". Once you understand that you aren't doing anything but leading energy into a different direction, (again, not just intellectually), you're doing Aikido.

The trick is in how much actual Aikido you do... and how much of it has to be turned into "other things".

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365773 - 12/07/07 06:54 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

As I was executing the techniques, I was explaining how and when my Aikido became jujutsu, and when the jujutsu became Aikido. Essentially, if a technique requires more than redirection, it's jujutsu... if it's "all energy", it's Aikido... but clearly the explanation was over some of their heads.




I meant no offence, I was refering to the above passage.

Quote:

I know exactly when I have to "help" a technique because I didn't get it right "exactly" on my entry, or lost it through the lead...




This is whatI am talking about, no ones timing is perfect all the time? People should train for when things go bad as much as for when they go good.


Quote:

The trick is in how much actual Aikido you do... and how much of it has to be turned into "other things".




Again yeah this is me.

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#365774 - 12/07/07 10:44 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:
I know exactly when I have to "help" a technique because I didn't get it right "exactly" on my entry, or lost it through the lead...
---------------------------------------------------
The above sounds very much like my aikido would be better (more effective) if I knew some other MA with mechanical assistance. I don't.

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#365775 - 12/07/07 05:09 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
iaibear, think "levers". Jujitsu is based on the principle of leverage and circularity. With levers, a small force can move a large weight. The long bones of the skeleton are the levers. Where the fulcrums are, and how to use it is the trick. It's much easier to show this in person than to describe it in writing.

Dave, remember what I said about Aikido being focused on YOU - maintaining your structure? Same applies whether you are nage OR uke.

Overcommitted attacks are easier for noobs to learn how to find the "flow" and kuzushi points. All attacks in learning mode are always prearranged. Telegraphed attacks are easier for noobs to develop entry and timing skills.

As you get better and uke gets better, there should be less reliance on these artificial training constructs.

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#365776 - 12/08/07 06:54 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The class I taught last Wednesday night was on "energy" work... and one of my instructions was to leave your hands open... no grabbing, no gripping, simply leading the other person's energy to the point of a throw.

First thing everybody did... grab whatever was extended.

The second thing I told them, was "one continuous motion"... "don't stop to admire yourself during the movement"... second thing they did... stopping to look at the connection, or stopping the "flow" right in the middle of the technique and having to try to restart it from zero.

Now I realize I have a southern accent, but words are words... and they mean things. If you follow DIRECTIONS, then all martial arts are simpler... if you "do it your way", it takes forever to unlearn your bad habits and do it the way it's actually done.

I can't tell you how many times I repeat the same instruction to the same people who just don't get it... I've tried it in English, Japanese, and French... and it doesn't matter what language you use, somebody not following directions doesn't do things right.

It drives me nuts, because my teaching buddy simply shows a technique and everybody attempts to follow it... with little if any success. I think, because there's "no instruction". We've discussed it a number of times, and his answer is always "I'm imitating Sogunuma Sensei imitating O'Sensei"... which is, to me, saying "I can't explain this"... I understand the principle, but it would be so much simpler if the students would just follow the directions they receive.

If they're "imitating Sensei B imitating Sogunuma imitating O'Sensei"... they suck at it. They would be a lot further along just following instructions and actually trying to do what they're told. It's hard to have any sympathy for their lack of learning when they won't do what they're told to do in rote practice, and then whine that "they aren't learning anything"...

I spend an inordinate amount of time teaching the students who listen, and they make good progress. The ones that don't, I don't waste my time on... but, of course, they whine about how little they're learning.

We all run into difficulties learning "things" in martial arts, but if you're following instructions, even if they aren't clear, you should be doing something similar to what you're supposed to be doing... and working out the "rough spots" is easier. If you're just doing what you're doing, and expecting a miracle... good luck. It doesn't work that way.

I can do, and have done, a lot of things that I don't totally understand in training, but following the plan is easier than making it up as you go along. You can't lie down in the middle of the road, and then yell for help
expecting everything to go your way.

FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS, then ask for help. ASK ABOUT THE PRINCIPLE INVOLVED, rather than the particular technique itself... and then, practice practice practice.

WT slowly walks off into the sunset, shaking his head and wondering why he bothers teaching people who resist learning...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365777 - 12/09/07 04:08 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yeah I dunno Grady... it seems to be some sort of martial IQ threshold. My instructor never said diddly squat during training. Although sometimes he did rant and rave on for 20min while we sat in seiza, legs going numb, and quickly cooling down. Our teacher never says more than 3x3 word sentences. But it's not because they can't explain it, it's just not worth the effort to do so... coz one day hopefully, dumb ol Joe will figure it out.... maybe.

When I teach, I can't help myself. I have to explain things, and yet people either don't register the instruction, or their body simply cannot coordinate with their brain. Things like, put your foot here, slide the other back, create a hole for uke to fall in, relax your shoulders, don't pull, just bring your hands down to your belt level... blah blah blah. Maybe it's just too much for people to follow?

I just dunno....

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#365778 - 12/09/07 04:14 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Overcommitted attacks are easier for noobs to learn how to find the "flow" and kuzushi points. All attacks in learning mode are always prearranged. Telegraphed attacks are easier for noobs to develop entry and timing skills.





Again I agree with this. I just like to add a bit more to it, but I think we are going in circles. Just hang on a minute eyrie.....*turns toward sunset "HEY WRISTTWISTER, CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING ?"*

Do you guys teach your students (beginners as well) only about the energy side of aikido, or do you also show them how to "muscle it" if their entry or lead goes wrong ?

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#365779 - 12/09/07 04:44 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Muscle? Obviously, if you are strong enough, you can always out-muscle a weaker person and somehow make it work. But it's not aikido and I wouldn't even call it jujitsu.

Any fool can use "muscle". If people want to use muscle, then why bother learning aikido? You'd be better off hitting the gym and pumping iron. As I always tell people, in a contest of strength, the strongest will always win. But if you want to learn aikido, then I will show you how a small child can throw a big person with little to no effort.

The point is to learn the principles of how and why the technique works. If you have to rely on "muscle" to make it work, IMO you are not effectively utilizing the technical principle.

There are many elements to making a technique work - not just "energy". Of these elements, I would consider footwork, body positioning and body alignment as paramount. If you don't have your feet and body lined up correctly, the technique will almost invariably, NOT work. To this end, I tend to focus a lot more on martial conditioning to connect the upper and lower halves of the body - feet, knees, hips, body, elbows and hands.

The next important element is ma-ai. If your ma-ai is too far outside of uke's the technique will not work. The overarching element is of course, to relax - especially the shoulders. If you tense up, the technique will not work.

Entry, timing and leading come much later when students can start to move relatively smoothly. These are "temporal" elements, and relate to speed and time. When people start to tense up and muscle their way thru a technique, I will slow it down and go back to the "basics" - footwork, bodywork, relax, relax, relax. Besides, if you relax, the "energy" flows better.

Aikido, like the weapons-based arts it is derived from, is a taijutsu art - that means footwork and bodywork are all important to understanding how the art works.

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#365780 - 12/09/07 05:00 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Sorry, again didn't frame that right.

Quote:

I know exactly when I have to "help" a technique because I didn't get it right "exactly" on my entry, or lost it through the lead...




Quote:

No, I don't stop and start over, I simply "help" it to succeed by applying additional manipulation... turning it to jujutsu. Can the students tell the difference?... I doubt it.




I was refering to the above ?

I understand about going back and fixing what went wrong with basic's etc..., I'm asking about teaching people what to do when it's already gone wrong from the entry.

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#365781 - 12/09/07 05:20 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
No, you were pretty explicit...
Quote:

Do you guys teach your students (beginners as well) only about the energy side of aikido, or do you also show them how to "muscle it" if their entry or lead goes wrong ?




Quote:

I'm asking about teaching people what to do when it's already gone wrong from the entry.


Well, that's an entirely different question... there are some common mistakes in basic techniques that people make and those are easily corrected by changing it, or doing something slightly different - even shifting the body angle slightly or creating space or negative space (i.e. changing the ma-ai).

But a million and one things can go wrong, and usually does. If you don't understand the basics of kuzushi, redirection, or changing your footwork and body positioning so as to aid the change in direction of force, then what's the point of teaching anything but the basics?

Everything is based on and flows from the basics - which is all I teach... basics and fundamentals. Up, down, left, right, front, back...

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#365782 - 12/09/07 05:53 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

No, you were pretty explicit...

Quote:
Do you guys teach your students (beginners as well) only about the energy side of aikido, or do you also show them how to "muscle it" if their entry or lead goes wrong ?



Quote:
I'm asking about teaching people what to do when it's already gone wrong from the entry.

Well, that's an entirely different question...




I don't really see them as entirely different.

This may just be my experience but with the tomiki club I trained at, most randori(full resistance rule bound competion) turned into tori/nage wrestling for control of the situation until a throw or lock could be applied, when nages timing wasn't perfect for the entry/recieve. This didn't just apply to beginners either, but many experienced players.


Quote:

If you don't understand the basics of kuzushi, redirection, or changing your footwork and body positioning so as to aid the change in direction of force, then what's the point of teaching anything but the basics?



Quote:

But a million and one things can go wrong, and usually does.


This is why, and what I'm getting at. Laern from your mistakes, but also learn what to do if you've already made them.

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#365783 - 12/09/07 06:24 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well they are different questions, although I suspect it's not the answer you want to hear. In any case, the answer remains the same... focus on the "basics", and by that I don't mean kihon waza. I mean "fundamentals", MA101 - footwork, body positioning, body alignment, ma-ai, kuzushi, redirection of forces, connection. Everything is based on and flows from these fundamentals. Get these right under any given situation and there is no technique you can't pull off - even if you botch the entry, lead or timing or whatever. Ukemi is quickest way to understanding.

The Founder once said, do not focus on this or that technique. Secret techniques will get you nowhere. Just focus on the basics.

As much as Tomiki was an accomplished martial artist, I don't think he really understood the fundamental premise of aikido. I think shiai detracts completely from the practical purposes of aikido, but that's an aside. And it is clearly evident from the choice of words - wrestling for control, that most people do not understand the fundamental premise of aikido.

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#365784 - 12/09/07 06:36 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

laern from your mistakes, but also learn what to do if you've already made them.




that would be to edit them....

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#365785 - 12/09/07 06:59 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

In any case, the answer remains the same... focus on the "basics", and by that I don't mean kihon waza. I mean "fundamentals", MA101 - footwork, body positioning, body alignment, ma-ai, kuzushi, redirection of forces, connection. Everything is based on and flows from these fundamentals. Get these right under any given situation and there is no technique you can't pull off - even if you botch the entry, lead or timing or whatever.




fair enough, thanks.

Quote:

Ukemi is quickest way to understanding.



I like the sound of that .

Quote:

As much as Tomiki was an accomplished martial artist, I don't think he really understood the fundamental premise of aikido. I think shiai detracts completely from the practical purposes of aikido, but that's an aside.



Yeah I've heard this said before, interesting idea.

Quote:

And it is clearly evident from the choice of words - wrestling for control, that most people do not understand the fundamental premise of aikido.




There's premise and there's "oh sh1t, I just f#%ked up"

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#365786 - 12/09/07 07:16 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
One of the things I love about aikido is that anyone can do it. That is, anyone who is willing to let go of their ego and learn how to do it. They don't necessarily have to be able to do the ukemi, but it does help a lot. After all it is better to receive than to give.

The moment you turn it into some sort of "contest" or competition, I think is when people lose sight of what effective aikido can be. The moment you become fearful, ego-driven, or wanting to do something to someone, you lose the fundamental premise of aiki - to join with someone's force.

That's why learning is cooperative at one level and collaborative at another level. It is the only way to learn aikido effectively. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that all forms of learning can benefit thru cooperation and collaboration and by people helping people.

It's all about fighting, but the best way to learn, is to stop "fighting" first.

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#365787 - 12/09/07 07:53 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

to join with someone's force.

That's why learning is cooperative at one level and collaborative at another level. It is the only way to learn aikido effectively. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that all forms of learning can benefit thru cooperation and collaboration and by people helping people.

It's all about fighting, but the best way to learn, is to stop "fighting" first.




Hi

I have never practiced Aikido but.
From my studies I can see the use of redirection.
and I can see your point about only way to train it is to isolate it in training. Aikido I think does this.
I can see the use of using brute force


Then I see a person using the end product with a form of aikido throw. It was a combination of everything.
It looked awesome and it was done by the looks of it for real.


Jude

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#365788 - 12/09/07 09:43 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
First, let me say that Aikido isn't jello... you don't just add force to make techniques work. Eyrie is absolutely right about the process for making Aikido techniques... proper footwork, spacing, body structure, etc. for ALL Aikido techniques. They are precise and determinate of what will occur after "interception" with the uke.

When I say "help" a technique, I mean "I may have to make the hole bigger", or "I may have to stretch further", or I may have to take a "scooting step" to take up the slack... not just the Jello recipe... Just add force...

Aikido is not wrestling, so you are not forcing anything... you are allowing the body's energy to be redirected so that it creates a repeatable effect. The recipe for that is to get the elements right and then apply them in order.

Jerking, pulling, wrestling and "adding force" are not anything I teach in Aikido( I do sometimes in jujutsu, but that's a different sequence of events). In jujutsu, I sometimes use striking into the joints to effect things, but never in Aikido, so the instruction is different, while the effect might look similar.

Quote:

There's premise and there's "oh sh1t, I just f#%ked up"




All I can say is that I've had my share of that. "Back in the day", I usually got my lights knocked out when that happened, but as I learned, I could correct a lot of it so it didn't happen that often.

Eyrie said it best...
Quote:

The moment you turn it into some sort of "contest" or competition, I think is when people lose sight of what effective aikido can be. The moment you become fearful, ego-driven, or wanting to do something to someone, you lose the fundamental premise of aiki - to join with someone's force.





Quote:

It's all about fighting, but the best way to learn, is to stop "fighting" first.




Follow instructions, do it right, and it works like a charm... make it up as you go along, and it'll take forever. Once you learn the fundamental "feel" of Aikido, you'll be able to "make it up", but until you get the fundamentals right, it'll look gawky...

P.S. Not necessary to "shout" to ask me a question, even if I'm walking off into the sunset shaking my head...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365789 - 12/09/07 04:50 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Jerking, pulling, wrestling and "adding force" are not anything I teach in Aikido( I do sometimes in jujutsu, but that's a different sequence of events). In jujutsu, I sometimes use striking into the joints to effect things, but never in Aikido, so the instruction is different, while the effect might look similar.




I've been out of aikido for a while (not sure if I was ever doing it now ), but hope to get back to it sometime. For now I think I'm more comfortable on the jujutsu side of things.



Quote:

It's all about fighting, but the best way to learn, is to stop "fighting" first.



This is going to take some time....

Quote:

P.S. Not necessary to "shout" to ask me a question, even if I'm walking off into the sunset shaking my head...




Just making sure, oldtimers distracted by bright lights and all..

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#365790 - 12/09/07 05:24 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: evad74]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< Follow instructions, do it right, and it works like a charm... >>

You mean verbal instructions, don't you, wt.

It had been a long time and I still miss them.

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#365791 - 12/09/07 07:46 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Geez, how hard can this be????

IF you get verbal instructions, follow them...
IF you get the "do it like this" followed by a demo... do it like that...

I realize everybody is at different levels of understanding, but following the instructions can't be that hard... If they were, I'd have never learned anything...

Let's do this slow...
First, OBSERVE SOMEONE ELSE DOING THE TECHNIQUE
Second, Listen to the instructions and make sure the gross movements are correct when you practice it.
Third, If you get the gross movement correct, ASK what else you need to do to get the technique correct.

Keep chipping away at the little things, and eventually you'll have a good technique.

Remember, if your arm is twisted one direction, you get ikkyo and sankyo, if it's twisted the other, you get kote gaeshi and shiho nage. If you "Z" the arm, you get nikkyo... everything else is kokyu nage or irimi nage...
Gokyo is a special application of ikkyo, just so you don't think I forgot...

Follow the energy paths of those techniques and work on ma-ai, movement, and blending, and you should be able to do anything you're taught. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you guys...

There is "walking in a circle", "walking straight", and taking a triangular step...

If your Aikido warm up exercises are correct, they will contain all the elements you will use in Aikido. The movements are in the warm ups, as are the grips, etc.



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365792 - 12/10/07 10:29 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

Geez, how hard can this be????

IF you get verbal instructions, follow them...
IF you get the "do it like this" followed by a demo... do it like that...




My point exactly. I was last blessed with verbal instructions in 1999. The dojo of the teacher of my original Aikido sensei does not indulge in them, only demonstrations of variations of combinations. You could say my practice is rationed.
:-p
Beats the heck out of Taibo, tho.

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#365793 - 12/10/07 11:21 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



My point exactly. I was last blessed with verbal instructions in 1999. The dojo of the teacher of my original Aikido sensei does not indulge in them, only demonstrations of variations of combinations. You could say my practice is rationed.
:-p
Beats the heck out of Taibo, tho.




I enjoy reading this thread.
I had to smile at Wristtwisters use of capitals.
It must get realy frustrating for him.
He is a good teacher though.
Has me looking up things.

There are (some) times when on receiving verbal instruction on something with me it just doesnt register .

So I prefer it if I was just shown a technique.
Prefer it being shown on someone else.

Along the lines of describe a house!
Takes forever to describe.

Or point to the house and say "The house"!


Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/10/07 11:37 AM)

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#365794 - 12/10/07 12:29 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I don't know what to tell you other than if you're not getting instruction, go somewhere that you do. Training with O'sensei wouldn't do you any good if you weren't learning anything.

If your teachers are "approachable", tell them that you need instructions you can follow rather than general directions. If they're worth a damn, they'll help you out if you're genuinely interested and training regularly.

We used to structure payments to the dojo like this...
If you train once a week... $100 a month
If you train twice a week... $75 a month
If you train three times a week... $50 a month

It was easy to tell which students were genuinely interested in learning and which ones were only showing up to save money. The answer to why they weren't learning anything was "you aren't training enough".

Trust me on this, if a teacher is worth anything, they are interested in seeing their students make progress. They expend their efforts on those that give it an effort... and don't waste time on those that just show up and want to somehow brag that they take "(insert martial art)". If you aren't learning and it's the teacher's fault, find another teacher. If you aren't learning and it's your fault, train more and pay attention to the teaching.

The formula is pretty simple. Train and learn, or don't train and don't learn. I don't know how to make it simpler than that...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365795 - 12/10/07 08:41 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
A large part of "traditional" MA training went something like this - teacher demonstrated the technique ONCE. Student was left on own to figure out. NO verbal instructions were given. No questions were allowed. If you asked a question, you found out very quickly why NOT to ask - usually intense pain was involved.

The rationale for this type of "instruction" was two-fold - #1. to train and develop the student's observational skills and sharpen their visual perception. And #2, before asking a question, you would have to THINK it thru and work it out yourself. If you couldn't be bothered, or were too "dumb" to do so, pain was typically a good reinforcement of the "lesson".

The way I was taught was not as radical as the example I've just given. But it was close. Usually nothing was said in class, by my instructor. Occasionally he would go into a 20min rant to someone about some aspect of their training in his cryptic Zen-like way. And our teacher, even though he did speak and understand English, spoke little more than 3-4 word sentences.

So it is largely up to the student to work at it, and to "work it out". Thankfully, there are many accomplished MA teachers these days with good communication skills, but I think people shouldn't expect to be spoonfed too much when it comes to MA training. The only way you can make the art truly your own is to OWN it - that means working at it and working it out for yourself.

Following the example and instruction of those who have "gone before", and not being afraid of asking thoughtful, intelligent questions, is a good step towards that goal.

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#365796 - 12/10/07 11:02 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Maybe I'm just spoiling my students by giving them too much information, but I'd like to "teach something, and move on"...

I know where you're coming from, because I've had a number of teachers that did teach that way, and I've had my share of thumpings because I couldn't figure it out by myself. Just like you learn throwing arts from ukemi, you learn energy arts from "turning loose".

I loved Judo, and enjoyed it for 35 years. Then, the "slams" got to be a bit much for my back and hips, so I moved over to a little "softer" side of the ballistic arts. That doesn't mean that less force is dissipated, it's just not done at 75 to 90 degree angles like judo falls take you, but more circular methods of force dissipation.

I totally agree that you have to work out "force loading" like Judo uses, and all of the nuance training necessary for Aikido, but I still think the teachers have an obligation to teach... not just show how good they are, but actually pass on the mechanical knowledge of how to execute techniques, and demonstrate how they're done correctly.

The pop quiz for Aikido techniques should go something like this...
Am I centered?
Am I forcing or flowing with the movement and energy?
Who's leading?
Is my ma-ai correct, or am I too close or far away?
Is my movement and leading breaking the attacker's structure? i.e. is there kuzushi?
AM I USING ARM SWORDS?... sorry, I have to grit my teeth when I ask that of students...

If you aren't centered, it doesn't matter what you do... the techniques won't work.
If you're forcing the techniques, you aren't doing Aikido.
If your attacker is leading, you're losing... if you're leading, you have a chance.
If you're having trouble, you probably are starting too far away or too close OR NOT USING AN ARM SWORD. (sorry, I lost it again).
To throw someone, you have to break their "structure" or "body frame". The normal way is to lock their hip by leading them in a direction that forces them to lean over (almost any direction) while you are applying a lead to their energy. If you aren't affecting the attacker's balance, then he'll never fall down or even lose his footing, which forces him to take a step to recover his balance.
If you aren't using arm swords, you might as well be sprinkling pixie dust on the attacker and wishing them to never-land... Aikido techniques just don't work without them... you can do some jujutsu techniques that look "Aikido-ish", but you just can't do Aikido without learning how to execute using arm-sword energy delivery.
(Wow, got through that without SHOUTING)...

I don't know how to teach somebody how something feels to them... only the mechanics and understanding of energy flow to gain that feeling. Like swimming, you don't know if you'll float until you're in the water... so there's no "intellectual way" to pass Aikido on to others... it's all about feel and flow, and understanding how the energy delivery can be manipulated to create certain body dynamics.

It takes knowledge of the body. It takes knowledge of energy. It takes learning the fundamental concepts of how energy affects the body and how to manipulate it. Something else it takes, which isn't taught in a lot of Aikido schools, is the capacity to extend ki from "other than your fingers". In Aikido, when ki is cut off, the capacity to extend ki from a different joint or create a mechanical movement to change the ki flow can keep a technique moving, and without that training, it takes years to learn very simple techniques.

Is there a lot to learn?... you bet. Is it hard... sometimes, but not because it's hard to understand, it's just hard to explain intellectually... it's based on feel and flow. Do instructions help... I don't have a clue... It depends on whether you and your teacher are on the same "wavelength" regarding the information. I have students I could talk to in seven languages, and it wouldn't get across to them... and others, that I can demonstrate the technique a few times, and they pick it up... but that being said, it isn't consistent. They might get one technique and not have a clue on the next one...

That's why you practice...



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365797 - 12/11/07 01:19 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Maybe I'm just spoiling my students by giving them too much information, but I'd like to "teach something, and move on"...


I didn't mean to imply this, when I said that about "spoonfeeding". I'm pretty much the same way... but I also appreciate the "old" ways and how non-verbal communication is also "teaching" at some level. I think it's a cultural thing.... it's very "Asian".

Quote:

but I still think the teachers have an obligation to teach... not just show how good they are, but actually pass on the mechanical knowledge of how to execute techniques, and demonstrate how they're done correctly.


Totally agree.... Although I feel that sometimes, there's only so much I can convey to the person without sending them into "information overload".

Quote:

not because it's hard to understand, it's just hard to explain intellectually... it's based on feel and flow.


That is one of my favourite sayings in class... Don't think about it, just FEEL IT!!! After class you can go home and think about it. And PLEASE practice it. It's amazing how many don't go home and practice - the most basic things like funekogi, kokyu-ho, irimi-tenkan and ukemi... and next week, we start all over again from the beginning. Get the foot work right, get the body angle right, get the upper and lower connection right... *sigh*...

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#365798 - 12/11/07 06:15 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
It's a lot like housebreaking puppies... they only "go" when they have to "go"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365799 - 12/11/07 10:44 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
1st dojo:
From Jan. 1994 to Dec. 2000 the repetition in class (3x a week), week to week worked the technique(s) of the day into muscle memory. I was able to take them home and practice.

2nd dojo:
From July 2000 to the present there has been no recognizable repetition and there can be thousands of variations. I couldn't remember the combination(s) of the day out the door, much less home. However, the activity is still enjoyable and necessary.

Figuring that testing was to prove what I have learned, I do not test. But I do value your opinions and advice. Thank you.

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#365800 - 12/11/07 05:49 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I've never put much stock in muscle memory. I think the biggest trap in Aikido is believing that the "techniques" are set responses to prescribed attacks. They are not.

It sounds like your current instructor is approaching it in a good way. As my teacher used to say in his usual brief manner... "Forget technique".

Just as karate kata is designed to change the way you move, aikido waza is designed to change the way you move. What I did was break the waza down into discrete parts and study a small part of the movement in detail - how I hold my posture, where I place my feet, the ma-ai between uke and me, in which line is uke easily off-balanced, etc. Teaching kids has been invaluable in that regard - if you get a chance to take the kids class in your dojo, grab it.

In all cases, the ground and your body weight are your primary sources of power. The key to understanding how to harness these power sources are in funekogi-undo, sayu-undo, ikkyo undo, tai-no-henka and tekubi furi undo. Primarily you want to learn how to express power (and absorb forces - what Grady calls "force loading") in the 6 directions - up/down, left/right, front/back.

Grady also mentioned that not many Aikido schools teach how to express (ki) power in parts other than your fingers. This is so true. But to start, learn how to bring the ground and your weight into your hands. This will help you understand how you can do the same with any other part of your body.

So, once you understand what it means to move correctly, you will start to understand that "techniques" are merely expressions of moving correctly. So for the time being, forget techniques.

Tests and gradings are usually a formality. If you are already at a certain level of development, the grading is only a demonstration of that ability. In any case, simply treat it as yet another training session.



HTH.

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#365801 - 12/11/07 09:05 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Iaibear,
I don't think "muscle memory" is of much use in dissipating force. You might be better served to pick up a physics book and see how deflection and redirection affect applied forces, then try to realign attacks into the prescribed energy patterns that are available to you. Start with circles, figure 8's , and figure 6's... and don't forget good old straight lines.

To deflect, you have to either blend or push slightly on your entry (talking ikkyo here) and pivot at the point of contact to get both of you going in the same direction. (Remember, I believe all technique is "ikkyo".)

Now that you're confused, let me explain...
Put your arms out in ikkyo posture, in arm swords...
Now, turn your hips right, and bring your right arm down into one side of a figure 8, bringing your left hand close to your right shoulder. Repeat the same movement to the left side, allowing your hands to pass each other as you face forward at 0 degrees... consider facing forward 0... right 90, and left -90 degrees. Keep your arms swords through the loop, and your hands "soft". This is a basic entry for irimi, and I'll leave it at that for the time being.

With that simple exercise, you should be able to intercept any kind of attack except yoko menuchi, and for that, you reverse the movement of your arms to cross your body. If you were "picturing it", it is a figure 8 bent around a circle.

Once you get those motions in place, think of their use as "if the force is outside or straight" (as in shomen), step toward the point of interception... if the force is inside or horizontal, step away and allow the point of interception to come to you.

That simple exercise should give you the lead in almost every technique you try. From there on, it's timing and blending, along with tenkan. (Change hands as necessary)

If you're centered, and your ma-ai is correct, there isn't a technique in Aikido that I know of that you couldn't do. Entering the same space with your attacker is the key, but like a tornado, you want to be the center, and use them as the outside "winds". Dynamically, that's exactly how it works.

The only other instruction I might give you would be "don't be a jerk"... and by that, don't be so anxious to "do the technique" that you lose the timing and jerk out of the grip. Match your timing and movement with your uke, and you'll find much more satisfaction with how easily they are thrown... and they will appreciate it because they'll know exactly what they need to do to protect themselves.

In Judo, it's called "jite Kyoe" (probably misspelled it), which means "you, me, shining together". What it means is that your defense or attack is neither... only part of a movement involving two people... which is Aikido...

I really hope you figure this stuff out... it's hard to teach on a bulletin board...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365802 - 12/12/07 12:00 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Interesting to intercept just about any technique I try. Receiving and countering a yokomenuchi works pretty well.

Usually I do not get to "try" a technique. The idea is to duplicate sensei's demonstration. (Think of eight years playing follow-the-leader.)

When I first started @ 1994 I truly enjoyed being in a kids class because there they did take the time to discuss what the movements were. Until then it was like trying to dissect a plate of spaghetti.


Edited by iaibear (12/12/07 12:12 AM)

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#365803 - 12/12/07 09:35 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
My only answer for that is to practice outside of class. Surely they don't care if you practice before and after class. I'd have never learned anything if all the training I did was in the class hour. I still practice 1 to 2 hours outside of class for every hour I'm in class.

Just a thought...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365804 - 12/13/07 10:53 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

My only answer for that is to practice outside of class. Surely they don't care if you practice before and after class. I'd have never learned anything if all the training I did was in the class hour. I still practice 1 to 2 hours outside of class for every hour I'm in class.

Just a thought...







And a good thought, if I had a place, a partner and some correct thing to practice. Afternoons the dojo is locked except for class.

<< I don't think "muscle memory" is of much use in dissipating force. You might be better served to pick up a physics book and see how deflection and redirection affect applied forces, then try to realign attacks into the prescribed energy patterns that are available to you. Start with circles, figure 8's, and figure 6's... and don't forget good old straight lines. >>

Maybe I am misleading you with the term of "muscle memory". To me that takes care of getting the feet to move off line, getting arms, body/hips and attention to follow my center. Which leaves my head/instincts free to handle the interceptions and misdirection.

BTW: circles I think I understand what you mean; 8's and 6's I don't.

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#365805 - 01/07/08 11:39 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Sorry I let this one lie around a couple of weeks.

Quote:

BTW: circles I think I understand what you mean; 8's and 6's I don't.




Follow the shape of the numbers... an 8 is the same as infinity only vertical... or 2 S-shapes back to face... the 6 is a large circle blending in to a smaller circle. Once you get that in mind, think about your arms and body moving not only horizontally in those shapes, but changing elevations as you do them... creating spirals which your opponent's body have to keep up with. Quite often, the body simply isn't designed to do it... so the "attacker" is led into a position where it's easier to fall down than to try to remain standing. (Or the energy release simply blows him out of his shoes...)

I teach a series of techniques that are called "palms up - palms down", where the "normal" attack is "tricked" by simply changing the structure of the grip attack. Where a katate grip is normally done "thumb vertical", just prior to the grip, flip your hand over and point your thumb down. Once the grip is made, simply turn your hand back over to it's natural position, and see how it affects the attacker. Then, add a step backwards forcing the attacker to "reach" for you, doing the same thing, and you will begin to see how to affect their body mechanics with simply reversing the "expected" attack.

Make sure you keep your arms in the "arm sword", and let your elbows fall to their natural position. You will see exactly how powerful simple body positions can be. Then, you can begin to blend their energy into the shapes I've described and you'll see their bodies doing all kinds of things they don't expect. All they can do is try to keep up...

...and don't try to be "quick" with your technique... match their speed, and you'll find they step right into the techniques for you.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365806 - 01/08/08 09:56 AM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Sure gives me something to try in class this afternoon. Thanks

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#365807 - 01/15/08 07:50 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
How'd it work out?

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#365808 - 01/15/08 07:58 PM Re: Strikes In Aikido - how realistic are they [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Never happened. Sorry

Life interrupted

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