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#365377 - 11/10/07 09:24 PM Re: Chi [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
Quote:

Quote:

My boyhood dream was to become an astronaut.




You mean the word 'astronaut' was in common use when you were a boy?

Reiki,

If we know where we are going, we may not even start the journey.





ah, but we can't resist making that journey can we?
_________________________
Allow me to acquaint you with my friends Mr Jab and Mr Cross...

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#365378 - 11/11/07 10:03 AM Re: Chi [Re: Reiki]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
[quote[ ah, but we can't resist making that journey can we?




Ah, now we know why Eve was so easily tempted.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#365379 - 11/19/07 01:09 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp;amp; Metal parts [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



No way am I saying that one is superior to the other, for this external 'whipping' power can floor many a Tai Chi master. But under certain circumstances, the ability to apply "soft tensive power" has it's uses, and of course when you get to 50 years old or more, this soft tensive power is all you have, which accounts for stories of oldmen giving a good account of themselves.





Judes thoughts.
From a students view.
I dont believe that on reaching 50 that is all a person can have.
For the average person who hasnt/doesnt train this might be the case but judging by the some of the older guys on okinawa 65 to 79 years old?
Who have trained ( and are still training) in what I think you refer to as external methods they still have it.


79 Years old? Still doing the same kind of body conditioning as some 25 year old who does the same training.
He takes part in the vein popping , weigth training ,being physicaly hit, and so called hyperventilated breathing as some one used on here to describe it.
79 years old!!

The thing is his training can also be proven( apart from making a journey to Okinawa) because its on video.
Google or You tube.

I dont understand the internal system. I would like to.
The only thing I am grasping is it starts with the mind
(Yes I can see that, and I could do with some of it)
There is a use of isometric/ static muscle contraction.
Some of IMA guys I have observed seem to do some form of progressive "weigth training"

Quote:



The "wave" motion mentioned above when "not in motion", by this I mean you consciously stop it and let it remain in one spot of the body as a 'static spiral' meaning it is spiralling but not going anywhere (I am inventing terms as I go along because when training no terms are mentioned, it was just do it like this and it happens; not so simple of course as it is part of a long process of step-by-step training to reach this stage)

This static spiral when concentrated on a specific SLIGHTLY tensed part of the body, over time, has the built-up effect of hardening the muscles there it, (WITHOUT any corresponding increase in muscular size/mass) but with the advantage of not having to do the vein-popping tensive excersizes and hard body slapping and hitting and weight training of the external systems. Without any massive gain in bulky muscle mass will also give you a certain "tai chi grace and smoothness" and yet with a visible sense of power in your movements and technique and still can take some blunt trauma while appearing quite relaxed. Some years ago, it was reported that Russian/Soviet olympic athletes were applying mild electrical shocks to their hand and leg muscles to strengthen them without having to do intensive weight training, which for certain sporting events is more of a hindrance. In the case of the IMA, it is done mentally.




I cant get your point on weigth training being a hinderance?
For which sport is it a hinderance?
I think what your refering to keeps reminding me of isometric training.

Qoutes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_exercise

Isometrics are thousands of years old and examples can be found in the static holds in certain branches of yoga or Chinese martial arts.

End of quotes

It is one way of training. Fine, it has its uses.It can be( and indeed is to a lesser degree) incorperated to a greater degree in to the vein popping
method. But a person is never going to be able to use 160 kg free weigth on the bench or lift everday heavy objects just using isometric alone.It has to be incorperated.

Quote

Generally speaking however, people who train isometrically don't train through a full range of motion as the strength gained at the training joint angle is where they require it. Interestingly, a study has shown that while dynamic exercises are 5% better at enhancing the twitch force of a muscle than isometric exercises, isometrics are 32% better than dynamic exercises at increasing maximal muscle power.
End of quote.



Russian atheletes were thought to be very much in to drug use e.g steriods, bone growth restriction, etc win at all costs, so I tend to take their findings with a pinch of salt.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/19/07 01:30 AM)

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#365380 - 11/19/07 03:26 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp;amp; Metal parts [Re: jude33]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
From my observations, there are a few very naturally talented people who are able to continue hard external training late in life. most people give up in their '40's and those that last into their '50's usually have to adjust their training and old injuries often take their toll (as we discussed earlier I've had both knees replaced). I'm 57 and can usually keep up with the youngsters but with more use of skill to make up for other losses.

IMO the softer and more skillful arts are of great benefit to older people and those that are not natural athletes.

Tai Chi has it's own form of training that eliminates the need for weights, dynamic pushing aligns and pumps the body and weapons add a martial form of extra loading to the body.
_________________________
supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#365381 - 11/19/07 04:20 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp;amp; Metal parts [Re: Bossman]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

From my observations, there are a few very naturally talented people who are able to continue hard external training late in life. most people give up in their '40's and those that last into their '50's usually have to adjust their training and old injuries often take their toll (as we discussed earlier I've had both knees replaced). I'm 57 and can usually keep up with the youngsters but with more use of skill to make up for other losses.

IMO the softer and more skillful arts are of great benefit to older people and those that are not natural athletes.

Tai Chi has it's own form of training that eliminates the need for weights, dynamic pushing aligns and pumps the body and weapons add a martial form of extra loading to the body.




This might turn in to a touchy conversation with some people.

I hope it doesnt.

Hi.
I doubt if the need of weight training/ full motion restistance training can be eliminated if a person wishes to be still training hard late on in life.

But I can see your valid points.

From my experience people who use weight training and keep an eye on their diet can still train hard even at 65.

Charles Atlas died at the age of 72 jogging on the beach.
His heart gave out. He was still training right up untill his death.

There has been experiments on muscle degeneration

One school of thought says that the formation of the molecule ADP is lacking in people as they get older.
This might be through diat/or lack of food absorbtion.

The diat in okinawa is different.
They seem to live longer and train longer.

Joints, connective tissue, bones ditto.
Seems like further research is required.

Yes there will be a market for IMA in the older generation.
That doesnt change what I observe though.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/19/07 04:23 AM)

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#365382 - 11/19/07 04:31 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp;amp; Metal parts [Re: Bossman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Breathwork (i.e. qigong) IS a form of "weight" training - without the weights. Working with "long" weapons - like a bo, or anything longer around 8-9ft is also a form of weight training. Same with stretching (as in yoga), twisting, winding, spiraling , reeling silk.

These are things one can do well into their old age. BTW, there's a video of an older Ueshiba floating around on YouTube doing the "jo trick" - which is a demo of ki/qi strength. And it's not as easy as he makes it look... :eek:

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#365383 - 11/19/07 05:08 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp;amp; Metal parts [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi

Wrong he ( Charles Atlas) was 79 years old

Charles Atlas at 76.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

Jude

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#365384 - 11/21/07 06:37 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp;amp; Metal parts [Re: jude33]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Charles Atlas acted against advice. He was recovering from a heart attack but continued to train.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#365385 - 11/21/07 11:17 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp;amp; Metal parts [Re: trevek]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Charles Atlas acted against advice. He was recovering from a heart attack but continued to train.




At 79 years old?
Good on him.
If I go then that is the way to go. Right after completing reps with a 160kg bench press (free weight) or sprinting on a beach. Another way I might consider going is perhaps when I am 79 years old being caught by a 25 year old man because I had been with his 25 year old girl friend .
There again I might win?

Cant see the point in lingering around waiting somehow.

Jude

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#365386 - 11/21/07 04:38 PM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp;amp; Metal parts [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Butterflypalm:

Wanted to send a PM to you but your mailbox will not accept any messages. Please contact me, when you have a moment.

Jeff

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