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#365287 - 11/04/07 05:15 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Close... real close...

> Vector means maybe in this case energy changing direction?

Vector as in directional force vectors. Energy is too vague. And I think is a different formula in physics terms.

> Pushing against an arm? = as in pushing hands maybe?

Think "peng".

> Neutralise an incoming force (push)

This is where sensitivity (listening jin) is important.

> By redirecting (thus the term vector) it into the ground(Earth)

Oooh.... Now how to bounce it back...?

> Done by the correct body alignment( as explained by Bossman?) and relaxation of the body( the person who is being pushed)

These go hand-in-hand...

> so there is no firm resistance against the force(push) on its way to the floor(Earth?)

Tension... not resistance... when you tense your shoulders (to resist), you get pushed over. If you are too floppy, you collapse and then get pushed over. Tension is somewhere in between loose and tensed. (See previous point re: body alignment and being "relaxed").

> The legs acts as springs( thus the use of one legged squats and other resistance exercises done by IMA's and others)

Leg strength is important, very important. Get off the computer and sit in mabu.

> The term root is said to be the contact between the person and the ground.(Earth)

Yes, you need a good root...

> Personaly I guess it has to do with the amount of strength and correct use of the legs/body muscles as to the amount of power obtained??

It depends on WHERE the power is sourced from that makes it "internal" or "external". Large muscle groups is external... true internal is sourced from the feet and dantien. And then you have varying degrees of everything in between.

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#365288 - 11/04/07 05:25 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts [Re: eyrie]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi

Ok will look/research further. Thanks.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (11/04/07 05:32 AM)

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#365289 - 11/04/07 05:30 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts [Re: Bossman]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Just been through the extensive youtube list and I'm afraid I can't...




There is a video of some karate ka on okinawa doing the kata as a conditioning /testing kata? I shall try to find it.

Dynamic tension and the striking/testing of the limbs type?
As Goju/Uechi karate ka do with sanchin?
Does that sound familure?

Just a thought


Edited by jude33 (11/04/07 05:32 AM)

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#365290 - 11/04/07 05:55 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Sanchin is a shaolin-derived "hard" qigong. That's why you see it in Fujian White Crane and karate derived from Southern Chinese gongfu. Sometime ago, someone posted a Youtube link of 4 masters performing sanchin - all of them doing it differently. Makes you wonder, no...?

BTW, Kenji Ushiro (Uechi-ryu) does it a lot softer than I've seen most Uechi people do it.

I guess the question one should be asking is - what is the difference between sanchin as a qigong exercise and other forms of qigong. Especially, all the qi detractors out there. If you don't believe qi exists, then why are you practising sanchin - a qigong exercise????

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#365291 - 11/04/07 10:31 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
simple. Sanchin needn't be thought of as a qigong exercise. and qigong needn't be thought of in terms of qi.

The reason is since 'qi' is a relative term based on whose describing it as a conceptual model AND what time period they are in (have you read descriptions of qi written 100+ years ago? - wow, talk about 'out there', kinda makes you wonder just how wide-spead the opium crisis really was ).

'qi' as a learning tool term is inspecific and widely misinterpreted - I would even venture to say 'outdated'.

people often describe qi in terms of metaphorical paradox and circular reasoning - which only serves to illustrate THEIR confusion....and no two people are confused in quite the same way, which is why we always have 30+ page qi threads.

despite all the back-n-forth over a conceptual model, it is entirely possible to teach MA without techncial terms or metaphysical concepts at all. and qi is loaded with metaphysical description. in fact, an interesting note of qi's trend thru the centuries of how the term was used, seems to show that the further back you go, the more ontological and cosmological qi becomes.

it appears to have followed the same path from superstition, being modified along the way in an attempt to fit the need and the times. the concept hasn't driven reality - the reality has driven the concept. it's after the fact, therefore not necessary.

you see qi in martial artists of high caliber reguardless of whether they trained thru qi terms or understand their concepts, yes? since they perhaps did not train thru your conceptual model, how could they have possibly attained the high level they have? it must follow that apparently, the concepts and training methods are interchangable - I believe they are. from wrestling to aikido, when I see a high level practitioner, I see efficiency. You can superimpose qi as explaining that efficiency, but it's not necessarily a reflection of that skilled practioners training method.

you see Qigong exercises in Sanchin, I see exercises in refining basics.

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#365292 - 11/04/07 11:44 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts [Re: eyrie]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

you see qi in martial artists of high caliber reguardless of whether they trained thru qi terms or understand their concepts, yes? since they perhaps did not train thru your conceptual model, how could they have possibly attained the high level they have? it must follow that apparently, the concepts and training methods are interchangable - I believe they are. from wrestling to aikido, when I see a high level practitioner, I see efficiency. You can superimpose qi as explaining that efficiency, but it's not necessarily a reflection of that skilled practioners training method.






Exactomundo!!!

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#365293 - 11/04/07 11:49 AM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts [Re: eyrie]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Sanchin is a shaolin-derived "hard" qigong. That's why you see it in Fujian White Crane and karate derived from Southern Chinese gongfu. Sometime ago, someone posted a Youtube link of 4 masters performing sanchin - all of them doing it differently. Makes you wonder, no...?

BTW, Kenji Ushiro (Uechi-ryu) does it a lot softer than I've seen most Uechi people do it.

I guess the question one should be asking is - what is the difference between sanchin as a qigong exercise and other forms of qigong. Especially, all the qi detractors out there. If you don't believe qi exists, then why are you practising sanchin - a qigong exercise????





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xmo9BiYiH8

The guy( no disrespect intended) performing this kata is to the best of my knowledge 79 years of age?

Qigong or chi kung is an aspect of traditional Chinese medicine involving the coordination of different breathing patterns with various physical postures and motions of the body

So on effect this part of the use of a kata is a method to/ way of keeping health.?


Qi, [ IPA phonetic spelling needed here ] also commonly spelled ch'i (in Wade-Giles romanization) or ki (in romanized Japanese), is a fundamental concept of traditional Chinese culture. Qi is believed to be part of every living thing that exists, as a kind of “life force” or “spiritual energy”. It is frequently translated as “energy flow", or literally as “air” or “breath

If I believe in this or not I will/ should also get the other beneficial aspects and the bunkia/ fighting methods in any kata.

Surely the posture as bossman decribed is going to be in some of these katas as they are practiced?
If yourself or Bossman would care to observe the above kata and see if it present that would be good.

Jude

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#365294 - 11/04/07 12:36 PM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts [Re: jude33]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
_________________________
supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#365295 - 11/04/07 12:54 PM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts [Re: Bossman]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539

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#365296 - 11/04/07 05:10 PM Re: Chi:Shoes &amp; Metal parts [Re: jude33]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Qi in this context simply means "breath", and qigong means breath work. If you don't know what the importance of breath work is to the IMA, then I don't think you're doing IMA. You're just doing some external form of "breathing" and you might as well be hyperventilating....

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