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#363999 - 10/05/07 02:50 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: RazorFoot]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Especially when they target children so the addiction takes root at a young age and grows as they grow.




But, in todays media pervasive society, is it more important to ban and censor, or to educate the young on the nature of all advertising, thus arming them to deal with the many pressures and agendas they will encounter outside of smoking in our culture?

As for modern transport being inherently 'good', it is not- it is convenient. Outside of energency services, the only reason we have developed a need for motorised transport is because it has irrevocably changed our living patterns- we 'need' a car to get to work, to see friends and family, to get to the super-duper 67 screen imax, to carry the bags and bags of shopping we buy at the hypermarket. Before it became easy to travel, families did not migrate far from their birthplace, we made friends within our imediate habitat, and we grew food and bought/traded in sensible quantities of basic unprocessed food stuffs.

Ask Grumbleweed how much he 'needs' his car to get to work these days- 2 years ago he drove everywhere, now he hardly ever uses his car to commute- he cycles and sometimes he runs to and from work! Its all about personal choice.

I am not 'pro' smoking, I am 'pro' personal control over my own health. If I choose to do something without looking into the risks, then that is my responsibility, providing the info is available. Do you honestly think there is a smoker in the world that picks up a pack one day and sees the surgeon general warning and suddenly says 'WHOA!!? I THOUGHT THESE THINGS WERE GOOD FOR ME!!?'

My dad left school in 1942, and remembers his PE teacher telling his class 'if you want to do well at sports, dont smoke- its bad for your breathing'

Personal control. Personal responsibility. No scapegoats.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#364000 - 10/05/07 03:19 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: Cord]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
I love zippo lighters with bald eagles, bears, wolves all that imagary i'd almost take up smoking so to have a valid reason to own one and go for smoking breaks at work standing around nonchalently with.... or become a fire starter?
_________________________
"Irony is mainly used by the British in in order to distinguish themselves from Americans, which worked very well until the Americans had more guns than them."

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#364001 - 10/05/07 03:31 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

But, in todays media pervasive society, is it more important to ban and censor, or to educate the young on the nature of all advertising, thus arming them to deal with the many pressures and agendas they will encounter outside of smoking in our culture?




Fair point, and I am all about education. And if the cigarette companies were even remotely honest about the true nature of their product, I might even agree. But let's not kid ourselves that they have even attempted to be open about what it is they are purveying. They actively lie and adulterate their product to make it extremely difficult to quit, whilst at the same time making an underhanded attempt to lure the only market that does not have the "personal responsibility" to make an informed choice - children.

Quote:

As for modern transport being inherently 'good', it is not- it is convenient. Outside of energency services, the only reason we have developed a need for motorised transport is because it has irrevocably changed our living patterns- we 'need' a car to get to work, to see friends and family, to get to the super-duper 67 screen imax, to carry the bags and bags of shopping we buy at the hypermarket. Before it became easy to travel, families did not migrate far from their birthplace, we made friends within our imediate habitat, and we grew food and bought/traded in sensible quantities of basic unprocessed food stuffs.




I get your point, but let's not forget that 100+ years ago, the average life expectancy was more like 40-50 years old on average, compared to 70-80 now. Health-wise at least, it's hard to argue that it was better in the old days.

I don't think anyone has said that modern transportation is "good" as in "good and evil". But it has certainly been a positive force overall in terms of societal development. The ability to move food, medicine, clothing and other goods and services has had a beneficial impact on humans as a whole. Motorized transportation also served to speed the move of the most important commodity in human existence - knowledge. Before the internet, vehicles helped to spread ideas and improved ways of doing things to a much larger part of the world than ever before.

Has their been a cost? Certainly. But looking at it from a cost/benefit ratio, one simply cannot compare transport to cigarettes, IMHO.

Quote:

I am not 'pro' smoking, I am 'pro' personal control over my own health. If I choose to do something without looking into the risks, then that is my responsibility, providing the info is available. Do you honestly think there is a smoker in the world that picks up a pack one day and sees the surgeon general warning and suddenly says 'WHOA!!? I THOUGHT THESE THINGS WERE GOOD FOR ME!!?'




Yes. Kids.

Quote:

My dad left school in 1942, and remembers his PE teacher telling his class 'if you want to do well at sports, dont smoke- its bad for your breathing'

Personal control. Personal responsibility. No scapegoats.




Cord, 98% agree with you there.
Cigarette companies that target children are no better than pedophiles, IMHO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#364002 - 10/05/07 03:39 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: Cord]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Quote:

Personal control. Personal responsibility. No scapegoats.







Nicely put.


Edited by JMWcorwin (10/05/07 03:40 PM)
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#364003 - 10/05/07 04:19 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: MattJ]
Spade Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
Quote:

Quote:

They don't need some goody two-shoes holding a red dot on there chest saying "truth, smoking kills" on the TV set.

You know what also kills? Cheese Burgers, Coke, Alcohol, Twix, Oreos etc...




WRONG WRONG WRONG. So wrong....sheesh.

All those things you named have a PRIMARY purpose that is positive - people have to eat.






But you don't have to eat junk food, if eating was the primary concern there are much better alternatives then cake and ice cream.

Junk food is about self indulgence; we all know junk food is bad for us, but we eat it anyway, smokers know smoking is bad for them, they do it anyway.

You can get addicted to sugar, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol.


How many people die due to heart attack because they didn't have healthy eating habits?

It just, in my mind seems like this topic sort of vilified smokers for smoking and causing harm to themselves; while Mr Big mac is out there clogging arteries.


I want to say we all agree that, at this point, with the knowledge available in this day and age, its about personal choice.
_________________________
"always paddle your own canoe." - Cord

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#364004 - 10/05/07 04:24 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: Spade]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Quote:

I want to say we all agree that, at this point, with the knowledge available in this day and age, its about personal choice.




No we don't. It's about personal choice when you are responsible enough to make a choice. A lot of kids aren't given all the info they need and even then still aren't capable of making an informed responsible choice.
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#364005 - 10/05/07 04:27 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: Spade]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

its about personal choice.





Is it really? Or is it you have the right to choose only what dudley do gooder has decided is OK for you to choose? And as the indentify some activity having any chance of harming you, they quick move to "save the children" and outlaw and the offensive activity that threatens to one day possibly harm you, or the children.

If someone wants to chance dying young so they can smoke, fine thats between them and God. But I am sick and tired of that being anyone elses business.

But hey you want to ban smoking, fine but new rules every time you take something away, you have to give something back.

So you can't smoke cigs anymore, but you can smoke Pot.

Damn health Mauraders.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#364006 - 10/05/07 04:35 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: RazorFoot]
Spade Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
Quote:

Quote:

I want to say we all agree that, at this point, with the knowledge available in this day and age, its about personal choice.




No we don't. It's about personal choice when you are responsible enough to make a choice. A lot of kids aren't given all the info they need and even then still aren't capable of making an informed responsible choice.




Who judges when someone is responsible enough to make that choice? Do they all of a sudden receive enlightenment from the age of 17 to 18?
_________________________
"always paddle your own canoe." - Cord

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#364007 - 10/05/07 04:46 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: Spade]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
When you talk about products with addictive principles, for children, is there really ever a choice once you start?
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#364008 - 10/05/07 04:47 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: Spade]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

But you don't have to eat junk food, if eating was the primary concern there are much better alternatives then cake and ice cream.

Junk food is about self indulgence; we all know junk food is bad for us, but we eat it anyway, smokers know smoking is bad for them, they do it anyway.




You are still missing the point entirely. THE INTENT OF FOOD IS NOT TO KILL YOU. Cigarettes are the opposite. You do realize that many people that die in home fires die from the smoke, not the fire, right? Smoke = death. Period.

Quote:

You can get addicted to sugar, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol.




Sugar? Addicted physically? Are you sure about that?

Quote:

How many people die due to heart attack because they didn't have healthy eating habits?




Missing the point, again. ANYTHING can kill you in excess - even oxygen. But you need oxygen to live. You need food to live, and can live off of junk food. You cannot live off of cigarettes - at all.

Quote:

It just, in my mind seems like this topic sort of vilified smokers for smoking and causing harm to themselves; while Mr Big mac is out there clogging arteries.




*I* have not vilified smokers. I even married one.


Quote:

I want to say we all agree that, at this point, with the knowledge available in this day and age, its about personal choice.




Not when the company that creates the product actively, continually lies about it.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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