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#364089 - 11/29/07 02:39 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: McSensei]
Dereck Offline

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10415
Loc: Great White North
I can't belief what I'm reading. The Surgeon General says smoking is bad. Independent studies say smoking is bad. Governments are banning smoking in public places as it has proven to be bad. Everyday people die due to smoking. People have died due to second hand smoke. People have contracted health problems from smoking or from second hand smoke. These are all facts.

I don't for once believe standing over my BBQ is anywhere in the category of harmful as a cigarette that is filled with known poisons. Nor is standing around say a camp fire in the same category as cigarette smoking.

I will tell you some fact. I work in the chemical industry at a manufacturing plant that is filled with chemicals. Many chemicals require more PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) to use such as vapor masks, Scott Air Packs, ventilation fans, protective clothing and gloves, etc. You wouldn't work with these chemicals without this stuff but you have no problem inhaling chemicals that many are MORE hazardous into your lungs not to mention giving off foul, toxic fumes (second hand smoke) to those around you.


#364090 - 11/29/07 03:50 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: BrianS]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England
A fair few posts to reply to so I'll try to get them in order.

Brian wrote,

"FACT: If someone smokes they are at risk for lung cancer. So we can deduce that smoking cigarettes causes cancer.Yep."

Well no. We can deduce that if you smoke you have an increased risk of LC. That's it. To say that smoking causes cancer means that everyone that smokes WILL get LC.

"If someone else breathes in the same smoke wouldn't it make sense that it would have the same effect? Hmmmmmm,well gee golly, I don't need proof to figure that out."

Again, no. Most cases of LC are people in their 70s. The average smoker starts as a teenager so we are looking at about 50 years of active smoking to contract LC. Some people develop it earlier so lets make the amount of time actively smoking at 40 years just to be cautious. Average 20 a day smoker will smoke 7300 a year, that is, 292000 cigs in their lifetime.
Estimates set the level of SHS breathed in by an average hospitality worker at between 50-200 cigarettes per year. Do you see where I'm going here?
How many years does that work out to be?
I'll save you the time. 1460 years worth of passive smoking just to match the increased risk of the active smoker. What does your common sense tell you now, mate? Again, IT'S THE DOSE THAT MAKES THE POISON.

"Also, when I breathe in second hand smoke I cough and gag. This tells me that the smoke is not good for me. My body reacts that way all by itself. It tells me, "Hey stupid! Get the heck away from the smoke!"

This tells you that you find cig smoke an irritant. Animal fur irritates me and a lot of other people as well, but we don't all go around demanding that animals are banned from EVERY indoor public place.

#364091 - 11/29/07 03:59 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: McSensei]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
So basically, the surgeon general and thousands of doctors are wrong and you are right?

Time to pick my battles and arguing logic with someone who refuses to yield to reason and FACTS (medically proven and verified facts) is not a productive use of my time.

Oh, and by the way, being a safety professional, toxic is toxic, no matter what the dose or concentration. Whether I have an ounce of MEK (Methyl ethyl ketone) or 55 gallons, it is still considered and regulated as a toxic substance.

The same is true of carcinogens. Regardless of the quantity or dose in a substance, they must all be listed.

Have fun guys.

Edited by RazorFoot (11/29/07 04:04 PM)
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

#364092 - 11/29/07 04:09 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: shills11]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England
Shills wrote,

"I believe you are in a fantasy world where you believe what you wish to be the case maybe your still a bit bitter about the recentley enforced public smoking ban?."

I get bitter about any attempted manipulation of lifestyles by intrusive Governments using junk science and scaremongering. As should everyone.

"40-50 years ago some Doctors were recomending smokeing to relieve stress, or to people of a nervous disposition.That was down to ignorance.

Ignorance is no longer an excuse"

And 60 years ago in Germany they were using the same fraudulent arguments to ban smoking because Der Fuhrer didn't like it and it didn't fit his view of things. Much the same as the people that are pushing this divisive and hateful agenda now.

" What your saying IMHO that no one has died from exposure to second hand smoke is like denying the holocaust ever happened."

No it isn't. There is empirical evidence of the Holocaust and the bodies, or what were left of them, were there for the eye to see.
I don't want you to show me 1000s of bodies, just name three.

As for the link, nothing new. No explanation of the actual science involved just some conclusions that don't actually fit the evidence.

#364093 - 11/29/07 04:23 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: RazorFoot]
Dereck Offline

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10415
Loc: Great White North
Scottie, we are in the same mindset. McSensei hasn't come out to my knowledge and says he smokes or not but I would say yes. I would also say he is living in a fantasy world that he is trying to make smoking seem not as unhealthy as it appears to be ... what, does he work for the tobacco company?

Comparing banning of animals because it irritates him to banning of a known carcinogenic that has the medical world and organizations such as the government promoting its banning ... that is stretching it big time.

Saying that smoking a little is better then smoking a lot; OH MY GOD! Everybody reacts differently to things and somebody that smokes very little can have the same repercussions as somebody that smokes a lot. The fact still remains that a little or a lot of exposure is exposure and it is not good for you at all. You can not set limits on stuff like that.

Since you like analogies lets use one that you might get. Say you got stabbed with a knife "once"; there is a possibility that you will die and then maybe you will live. Say you got stabbed with a knife a "multiple" amount of times; there is still a possibility that you will live and higher possibility that you will die. I suspect that you don't want to be stabbed at all, that you don't want to take a chance regardless of once or multiple times. Whether once or multiple times it is not good and the medical world and anybody with some sensibility would recognize this. It is not rocket science.

You can't make smoking look good no matter how you look at it. People do die from smoking, people have died from second hand smoke, people who smoke or because of second hand smoke have incurred health problems. Repeated exposure being a smoker or nonsmoker to cigarette smoke only rises the more you are exposed to it. I don't want to take those risks nor would I want to put those risks on anybody else out of common decency.

You can fluff up your stats and your way of thinking but in this case and matter you are wrong.

#364094 - 11/29/07 04:38 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: MattJ]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England
Matt wrote,

"Brother, that is some POWERFUL denial you have going on there. That smoking (active or passive) is a health threat is simply a priori knowledge at this point. Trying to pick out individual statistics to disprove it is like someone trying to prove that the earth isn't round, or that 2+2 doesn't equal 4, or that there are WMD's in Iraq."

That's the point though Matt. I'm not picking out individual statistics. I'm talking about every single peer reviewed study that has been undertaken has shown that the Relative risk from SHS is statistically insignificant.
Just because the press releases and headlines don't say that doesn't mean it isn't so. You wouldn't seriously expect the people pushing this agenda to acknowledge they have no evidence, would you. No, what they rely on is people hearing the sound bites and then just taking it as true. It's a technique devised by Josef Goebbels. See last post for the Nazi connection.

"It is simply indisputable that smoking can cause harm. Both fires and smoking have been studied and documented (see links above). It is not that much of a stretch to see that second-hand smoke can cause harm as well. It is the same smoke, whether a room is filled with burning material or people smoking."

If the above is true then why is it just smoking that is banned and not the burning of coal/gas/wood fires and candles etc?

"Let's look at it this way:

Is there an acceptable level of bullets allowed in the human body?"

Yes, I know a fair few people that have got bullets in them and apart from the obvious structural damage the existence of a bullet inside someone is not necessarily a cause for alarm.

"If I shoot a gun up in the air, can the "passive" bullets still kill someone when they come back down? Common sense, right?"

Funnily enough I asked this question of a Royal Marine friend of mine the other day and the answer was highly improbable as the mass of the bullet would not generate enough g force on its decent to gather the speed required to be deadly. So there you go. The urban myths are just falling away on this thread. What next, Anthropogenic Global Warming.

"I am exaggerating, but I hope you get my point. Smoking is a harmful activity with no benefit whatsoever, and no amount of denial or fact twisting will change that."

Actually it has been shown to have a protective effect on conditions like dementia and parkinsons.

"Tradition does not make it right, anymore than slavery or child-brides. Society is not obligated to allow people to harm themselves or others because of "freedom" or because "it makes them happy".

Let's not kid ourselves here."

Actually I disagree. Society, especially the US, is obligated to allow people to do things which may harm them. That is exactly what freedom is all about.
Sometimes I wonder why your Founding Fathers ever bothered.

#364095 - 11/29/07 05:00 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: Gavin]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England
Gav wrote,

"McSensei, wake up and smell the butt ends mate! Of course inhaling smoke is harmful.

I gave up Door work before the ban on smoking in public places was enforced and at the end of the nght I used to go home smelling like an ashtray. My lungs felt like they had cotton wool in them, my shirt stunk like it had been in a fire and gone stale and the smell when I washed the hair gel out of my hair coming from the sink was disgusting. Saying that sort of environment, created by smokers, is not harmful is blatant denial...from a bloody smoker! How many times have you trained with me now and we clinch up have I said, "Still smoking then?"'s not coz I'm Mystic Meg that I could tell!"

I've not said it isn't harmful. I've tried to get across the point that it depends upon the dose and the dose you get from ETS is just not enough to do you any harm.
You may not like the smell and with that I can sympathize, but not liking something is no reason to blanket ban a perfectly legal substance that is enjoyed by a quarter of the population.

"Saying that I have a choice to go into a smokey pub is a valid point, but the fact is a minority (ie. smokers!) are restricting the freedom of my choice through no fault of my own. I think its a filthy anti-socail selfish addiction. But I might be biased!"

So we both need our choices catered for. That is what happens in a tolerant and civilised society. Not draconian bans. What's wrong with separate indoor smoking rooms or smoking and non smoking bars? Whatever happened to choice. Not to mention the property rights of bar owners that now are not allowed to partake of a legal substance on their own fecking property.

Biased Gav, never.

#364096 - 11/29/07 05:09 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: Cord]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England

I don't really have to look up the stats as I have them rattling around the old bonce after studying this issue for some time now, but I pretty much agree with what you have written.
The fact is that that there are some 300 contributing factors to LC and the questionairres used by epidemiologists cannot possibly, comprehensively cover them all.

Guess what people...non smokers die too!

Just to lighten things a little.

#364097 - 11/29/07 05:21 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: Blackrainbow]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England
Razor wrote,

"Those people seem to be at greatest risk when it comes to passive smoking. Shouldnt that reasoning alone, the belief that some people are more prone to cancer than others, be a strong argument NOT to add second hand smoke to their level of risk?"

Then you would also need to ban the other contributing factors as well. I don't think many people would like that and in all honesty, I don't think it would be possible.

Blackrainbow wrote,

"Did you know that if you took all of the chemicals found in one lit cigarette and filled a 55 gallon drum. Not concentrated or adulterated in any way----the only legal place you could dispose of that drum would be a superfund rated toxic waste dump. That material would be in the same hazardous waste catagory as nuclear waste. This from the CDC."

Really? Fascinating.

Except we are not talking about 55 gallon drums here we are talking about a few nanograms, pictograms and femtograms.
Do you realise exactly how small the particles we are talking about are?

Right, I think I've caught up on all the main points.
Fire away.

#364098 - 11/29/07 05:49 PM Re: Smokers...grrrr [Re: McSensei]
Blackrainbow Offline

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 220
Loc: Brandon Fl.USA
Actually were talking milligrams and micrograms. Do you know how many children die in the us every year from injesting just a couple of cigarette butts ? Nicotine is one of the most toxic substances on the face of the earth. Go do a Google. Just type in Nicotine LD 50/50. Back in the 16th and 17th century, tabacco smugglers used to wrap the leaves around their bodies, under their shirts to sneak them into countries where tobacco was heavily taxed or illegal. Death was common place due to direct absorbtion through the skin. Tobacco dust used to be commonly used as a very potent insecticide on crops but is now mostly banned. It is more lethal ounce for ounce then a product called Seven. Remember Bophal India. Seven is made from methylisocyanate. A few pounds of this stuff leaked into the air and thousands died and many thousands injured. Yep, I know all bout tobacco. In my day job I get to sit and watch people die because they too believed like my mom and dad did that a little cigarette smoke was harmless. I held mom and dads hands while they died too from cancer and respiritory failure due to a lifetime of smoking. I'm real familier with those micrograms and milligrams.
You cannot defend against that which you do not understand

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