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#363899 - 10/04/07 02:36 PM What is the difference between Shorinji and Shorin
BigBoyKarate Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 1
I just joined Karate and was wondering what the difference is between Shorinji and Shorin? Are they the same?

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#363900 - 10/04/07 08:18 PM Re: What is the difference between Shorinji and Sh [Re: BigBoyKarate]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
There is some difference. Shorinji Ryu Kempo and Shorin Ryu Karate. The differences are mostly superficial and in the lineages.

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#363901 - 10/06/07 02:39 AM Re: What is the difference between Shorinji and Shorin [Re: BigBoyKarate]
Unyu Offline
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Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

I just joined Karate and was wondering what the difference is between Shorinji and Shorin? Are they the same?




They can be and they can be very different. I'm sure you know that "Shorin" is "Shaolin" in Japanese and "Shorinji" is "Shaolin Temple" in Japanese. The confusion begins when you are speaking of Shorinji ryu Okinawan Shuri Te/Tomari Te, Chotoku Kyan lineage vs. the Japanese versions of Shorinji Ryu which are a more modern form of Japanese Budo with aspects of the original Okinawan Shorinji Ryu, yet distinctly different.

Then you have Doshin So's Shorinji Kempo which is supposedly a Japanese form of Shaolin Chuan Fa and is as much an ideology based on Zen Buddhism as it is a Japanese Karate system with Judo mixed in.

Some Shorinji systems, Japanese and Okinawan, practice free sparring with bogu gear. What is markedly different are the kata and other training modalities. The Japanese Shorinji kata have more of a Shotokan or Shito Ryu feel and look to them- i.e.: wider, longer stances and so on.

Confusing, huh? Most of the Shorin Ryu systems are more Okinawan than anything else, with some of the sportive influence of Japanese "schoolboy" karate mixed in (thought I'd put that since your moniker says "BigBoyKarate" .

Matsubayashi (Shorin) Ryu (Pine Forest Flow), founded by O'Sensei Nagamine Shoshin, is a mix of Tomari Te, Shuri Te and some of Choki Motobu's toudi, which was influenced by both schools of thought, plus some of his practical fighting knowledge. The main distinguishing feature is their high chamber, on the chest versus the hip. Otherwise from outward appearances the kata are similar to other Shorin Ryuha, with the exception of some unique forms such as Wankan which are thought to be influenced by Nagamine's training on Taiwan.

Kobayashi (Shorin) Ryu (Old Pine Forest Flow), is O'Sensei Chibana Choshin's system which was heavily influenced by the Shuri Te of Itosu Anko. It has elements of Tomari Te and some ryuha, like Shinshi Higa Yuchoku's subsystem, have Goju Ryu elements mixed in. The two main ryuha are the Shidokan (Miyahira Shinshi) and Shorinkan (Nakazato Shuguro Shinshi). The former shinshi (sensei) being the eldest of the two in seniority but still second to Yuchoku Higa Shinshi. This is probably the closes to Itosu's brand of karate. Kata like Jion, which are missing from other Shorin Ryuha, make these systems unique.

Matsumura Orthodox (Seito) Shorin Ryu is the art thought to be closest to Sokon Matsumura's system of Shuri Te. It does have some supplemental kata of Tomari Te origin (Wansu, Ananku, etc.) introduced from Hohan Soken O'Sensei's students who trained in Okinawan Shorinji Ryu and Okinawan Kenpo but they are not stressed for ranking. Originally these Tomari kata were not a part of the system. Regardless, even these are done with Matsumura Seito principles in mind (stances, punching form, chambering, stepping, recentering, ad nauseum). The kata often associated with Matsumura Orthodox is the "Hakutsuru" or "White Crane" form. From this core system you have Fusei Kise Shinshi's Kenshinkan (he was a Kyoshi in Shorinji Ryu his base system) and Kuda Yuichi Shinsi's Matsumura Shorin Kenpo. He was a high ranking yudansha under Nakamura Shigeru O'Sensei (Okinawan Kenpo founder) before training with Soken, and mixes aspects of both in this subsystem (ryuha). The purer systems of The Seito branch are headed by Akamine Shinshi and Nishira Shinshi who is familially tied to Hohan Soken O'Shinshi. Kise has been awarded the title of Grand master by the Japanese governmwent, but most Matsumura Seito stylists recognize Nishihira as the inheritor of the system. Kise's system is seen as far removed from the almost purevSeito karate he was teaching pre-mid 1970s. Kuda's system has many, many Okinawan Kenpo elements to it.

Then you have from Chotoku Kyan O'Sensei's influence the systems of Shobayashi ("Little Pine Forest"), Seibukan, Chubu Shorin Ryu, Sukunaihayashi and of course Shorinji Ryu which is Joen Nakazato Shinshi's take on his karate training. They do a lot of bogu sparring as do the Okinawan Kenpo folks. These "Shorin-based" systems are a good mix of Tomari Te and Shuri Te.

MAs historians claim that at least 90% of modern karate styles can trace their roots to Okinawan Karate and to the Shorin Ryuha specifically.

Hope this helps. They are all decent systems fundamentally, but of course the sensei and practitioner help make things more complete. Good luck! Train hard and smart! The Shorin systems are a great base to have.


Edited by Unyu (10/06/07 02:41 AM)
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#363902 - 10/06/07 05:00 AM Re: What is the difference between Shorinji and Shorin [Re: Unyu]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Nicely put Bryan,

filled in a few holes on my history as well, appriciate that.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#363903 - 10/06/07 06:22 PM Re: What is the difference between Shorinji and Sh [Re: shoshinkan]
Quattro Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 17
Thanks that was a very informative post.

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#363904 - 10/07/07 01:31 AM Re: What is the difference between Shorinji and Sh [Re: Quattro]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Man that was very informative and enjoyable to read. It filled in some voids for me also, ironed out some kinks. And gave me more data to research, Thanks Unyu.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#363905 - 10/08/07 03:33 PM Re: What is the difference between Shorinji and Sh [Re: Neko456]
harperx Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 7
Very good post, Unyu.

If I might make one comment, I think in the Matsubayashi section, the part regarding a "unique form" should be Ananku, based upon Kyan's training in Taiwan. I have no knowledge of Nagamine ever training in Taiwan. If you have information of this, I'd love to know it!

Thanks
_________________________
Randy Brown Shogen-Ryu

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#363906 - 10/08/07 08:19 PM Re: What is the difference between Shorinji and Sh [Re: harperx]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Randy: I should have put that his teacher, Kyan, trained on Taiwan. Nagamine never did, but I did write that, so my bad.

I used Wankan as an example of a kata unique to his brand of Shorin Ryu (Matsubayashi). Ananku is seen in the other Kyan influenced styles.

Wankan is found in Shito Ryu, Shotokan and Wado Ryu, three Japanese systems. It is not in any of the other Shorin Ryuha.

Thanks for the kind words everyone. Sorry for the typos and mistakes. It was late and I suck at typing anyway! Peace!
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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