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#363863 - 10/24/07 01:19 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: jude33]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Jude,

Quote:

Everything isnít a block but how else is the movement meant to be learned.? How would you suggest the movement for age uke be intitialy taught as? I am not sure about the people on the video but I am guessing the drill was aimed at beginners or the people on the video havenít gone much further themselves.





First, I think these guys were both BBs. Could be wrong though.

First, learn the mechanics of the blocks (or whatever anyone wants to call them) through basic kihon practice. No one has said to get rid of basics. But these ippon kumite drills are just wrong for any real use that I can imagine, unless people punch this way in attacks from a meter and half away while in a front stance...and they don't.

Then do what Brian has already mentioned and as shown on that Krav Maga vid that Ed posted for beginners. Have the attacker punch in a more realistic manner, if slowed down a bit and attenuated for contact. Throw your blocks and parries from a more realistic posture. Don't allow a particular regimen or aesthetic to rule the mechanics of what you are learning and that's just what these drills promote if you are learning them to counter an attack.

For higher level practioners, aim to actually hit. Forgo the head as a compromise, unless wearing protective head gear designed to stop head trauma, but hit at the sternum with some intensity. Work out a more realistic use of real impact in the strikes with real parries and blocks. The penalty for not doing blocking correctly is to actually get hit.

Mix up the strikes and don't let the attacker just hang his arm out there after the impact. See how hard it is to really try to manipulate the striking hand/arm when the attacker immediately pulls it back and sets up the other hand. Let it be one-two-or three combo attacks at higher practice. What does that do to using the one-steps you were traditionally trained it per the video?

Find out that the actual disatance required to pull of a good block or parry, which may not be the ones shown in these drills if there is no impact. Distance is changed when the impact point is not the surface of the body and it makes it a much closer deal than shown in those videos when you allow follow through in the strikes after impact.

Do this from the get go and you don't need these rigid drills that basically abstain from what Brian listed....real timing and distance needed to stop more realistic strikes.

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#363864 - 10/25/07 12:53 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Barad]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
This is a good discussion, yet I seem to be missing something here. Some say there are no hard blocks, others that they practice "intercepting/accepting" or parrying, some that their blocking is done with the elbows as well, while others claim there are no blocks per se. Blocking with "elbow destructions" is valid, but limiting in the minds of many old school karate types.

I tend to think that there is a use for all of these aspects associated with the term "uke". Additionally, no practitioner speaks of the use of simultaneous block strike techs. When performing sets you should never chamber as the "uke". You should not be performing your blocks from the opposite ear or by crossing your arms too much. The rear hand should be held up just below the chin, thumb near the solar plexus so that you can use both hands to parry and block/strike, like a boxer does. The "guard hand" as the Seito practitioners call it is integral in understanding the original intent of the practice of "blocking" techs.

This is why in the kata the Seito people keep their spare block hand at the position I described, unlike all the other ryuha which usually place their guard hand so it is facing palm down. I am speaking of the three so-called "shuto" strikes as seen in Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan. You will fight and move your body the way you train and ingrain.

Jim did mention the use of a "fence", which some shinshii call "the wall", but he also seems to detail use of the block in 2-person sets from a chambered position, a big no-no in real karate. I don't want to delve into specifics or semantics, but from the responses I can see a limited understanding of what blocking is in karate.

The use of the term "double bone" blocking goes beyond that article Chris wrote. What he must have never been taught is that the term also refers to is using two hands/arms to help with the force of a strong punch while striking at the same time. The chambering seen in kihon and kata refers to other "hidden" aspects as well as proper form, sinew training and range-of-motion exercises.

Tai sabaki in old style Okinawan Karate training also refers to tenshin, or body shifting which is a concept even beyond modern boxing's "bobbing and weaving". Training in sets with the proper defensive readiness meaning proper mechanics, shifting, fist forms and postures as well as offensive attitude (sen-no-sen) will serve the self-preservation aspect of your karate well.

I'll leave it at that. I don't want the adepts on here getting too much info without proper instruction. Especially the cats from Britain (except Jim ). They might try and write it into their books again ! Suffice it to say that you guys each have good angles on your karate and the way you were taught to "block", but it is obvious that many are still looking at things in a more modernized karate kumite light or even from a kickboxing standpoint. You all have valid points and no one can be faulted for things they don't know.

Informative and enlightening thread. Peace...
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#363865 - 10/25/07 02:03 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Unyu]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Unyu, I disagree about the no excessive arm crossing view point. What is excessive? In fact, arm crossing is a big part of what makes the blocking in karate effective. The hand skills developed in basic training is important in fighting. It is important to develop the hand/eye coordination to pickup strikes with the hands in parrying and be able to launch effective striking off of these parries. This is trained from day one. However, it may be due to the different in kamae. You mention using a guard hand and wall hand. I personally use the kamae from the beginning of rohai as well as the ready both hands down posture. From these positions where the hands are at roughly the same height and depth the hand crossing and parrying as a part of the traditional blocking is an integral part of application.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#363866 - 10/25/07 02:41 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: butterfly]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Butterfly your an instructor par excellence.Its a pity people like your self werent teaching when a lot of people were just beggining martial arts training.
I like barad also had to spend some time doing techniques
in ways that later I found didnt add up, although I think at the time they had a purpose. Confusing I know.

Unyu

The body movements you were refering to that are simular to a boxers. Im glad you brought this up. Untill now I have kept quite.
On a video I have seen of another version (Other than funokoshis) intepretaion of Jion(checkable lineage) there is a if you like a slipping movement very much like a good boxers. If this movement was for a grappling technique or getting out of the way I dont know. What and where are your experiences in trad karate of these type of movements?
The chambering back to the hip to represent a specific technique.

I have observed this movement used in chinese boxing as part of a ongoing technique.
How have you seen this movement used?


Jude

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#363867 - 10/25/07 05:11 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Unyu, I disagree about the no excessive arm crossing view point. What is excessive? In fact, arm crossing is a big part of what makes the blocking in karate effective. The hand skills developed in basic training is important in fighting. It is important to develop the hand/eye coordination to pickup strikes with the hands in parrying and be able to launch effective striking off of these parries. This is trained from day one. However, it may be due to the different in kamae. You mention using a guard hand and wall hand. I personally use the kamae from the beginning of rohai as well as the ready both hands down posture. From these positions where the hands are at roughly the same height and depth the hand crossing and parrying as a part of the traditional blocking is an integral part of application.




This is just a wild guess and based on observation. While some of the standard blocking/punching practiced in some karate schools does seem to be of no use (after the begginers stage) they do seem to have the same mechanics as some chin na movements. Maybe that is the reason for such practice.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (10/25/07 05:18 AM)

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#363868 - 10/25/07 12:30 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: jude33]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Jude,

I'll give you an unsolicited answer here, though the question was aimed at Unyu. BTW, I am not vested in a traditional karate format, so my ignornace is worn sometimes not only on my sleeve, but across my chest in big letters that say, "IDIOT."

In any case, this is a discussion and that is precisely what these threads are for, but don't think you can't use a karate punch's "traditional" chambering....I just won't use it the way shown in the video that Ed linked.

One, a reverse punch chambering can be viewed as an elbow strike to the rear. Two, these can be used as pulling motions to bring the opponent in close for a counter if you have a grip on an opponent's arm at the right moment and in the right place. I have also used this motion as an elbow lock as the second section of a two part defensive series...and have used this in sparring. For me, I have made it work. Your mileage may vary.

This motion can be seen as a locking device to hold and curl back the arm of an opponent. Here's one example:

Let's say you were 45 degrees to the left side of your opponent since you could side step, parry and slightly slip his jab...so his left foot is in front. (By the way, change the attacking technique to a front kick, and with a slight initial defensive parry, you can do the same thing I am describing here.) You're in deeply and close enough to sweep or cut his left leg out from under him---and close enough to reach out with a bent right arm and touch his left (punching side) shoulder from the side and slightly behind him. If the cutting kick and/or sweep is done properly he will rotate and expose more of his back to you.

Help him downward by pulling back and down using your right hand hooked into the depression where his clavicle meets his shoulder. Bring up and over your left arm.....over his left parried (punching) arm. Even if he has retracted this, if you did the cut or sweep correctly, he will fall backward toward you and his arm will open to protect his body from falling. Use that chambering motion to lock this arm to initially to your mid-section and while you bring your chambered arm back, rotate your opponent's arm to lock the elbow. As he slides down and you stretch into the chamber his arm will be locked to your side along your ribs. There is some consideration on how you should be angled to the opponent as he falls...if you are parallel, he will take you down too as he falls. You have to be at an angle to him to control his movement downward without taking you out as well.

During this whole process, and if you do this correctly, go to kibadachi as the opponent continues to fall so you can control his motion downward. His head will rest on your bent knee (or be slammed there ), your chambered arm pinning his elbow back and now you have your gedan berai as a hammer fist or back fist (uraken) to bring down on the side of your opponent's head. Voila. Very traditional and very usable. Just not as the starting point to punching someone.

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#363869 - 10/25/07 07:43 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

Unyu, I disagree about the no excessive arm crossing view point. What is excessive? In fact, arm crossing is a big part of what makes the blocking in karate effective. The hand skills developed in basic training is important in fighting. It is important to develop the hand/eye coordination to pickup strikes with the hands in parrying and be able to launch effective striking off of these parries. This is trained from day one. However, it may be due to the different in kamae. You mention using a guard hand and wall hand. I personally use the kamae from the beginning of rohai as well as the ready both hands down posture. From these positions where the hands are at roughly the same height and depth the hand crossing and parrying as a part of the traditional blocking is an integral part of application.




Crossing at the wrists in a down block, yeah. Bringing your blocking hand up to your opposite cheek or shoulder, nope. The real lesson of using both hands in a blocking movement is to teach you to use both hands for blocking. The stacked or ready position, one fist over another, is usually a tuite hint.

I don't mean minimal contact with the two, I mean crossing yourself up which is a no-no. Your philiosphy about this is in line with what I've learned.

The ready position you mentioned is prevalent in Okinawan Karate, usually with the hands closed not open. As far as the rear guard hand is concerned, the old bare knuckle boxing stance, but with the rear hand open to parry and accept some force from a surprise punch is what I'm speaking of.
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#363870 - 10/25/07 08:09 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Unyu]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I see what you are saying about getting all "crossed up." In Matsubayashi the hand is not brought to the cheek in a down block. However, when whipping power is used it may whip back around the shoulder area; but this will only happen after the other hand which is used to parry has cleared. The excessive crossing you are speaking of is not a part of the Matsubayashi I know.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#363871 - 10/26/07 02:09 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: butterfly]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi Butterfly.

Nice. I am working through what you explained. If I skim read something it engages my brain cells that are in constant use how ever it doesnt engage my dormant brain cells needed to make things work. Can I come back to you on the topic?

Jude

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#363872 - 10/26/07 08:06 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Unyu]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Alas bobbing and weaving are not necessarily new, for example in 1933's "Karate Kempo" by Mutso Mizuho begins his extensive section on 'kumite' showing karate bobbing and weaving applications. He began his training under Funakoshi Ginchin.

There are often more than one answer. One of my instructors agrees from his family traditions that advanced black belts should never chamber and should just explode into the technique, block or attack allowing their extensive years of chambering to allow them to set the technique at the end as if it had been chambered. There is no question this increases the reaction speed of technique execution.

But there is another answer, for example I always chamber especially placing the hand alongiside the ear before the downward strike, but, perhaps not the way basic kata seems to show.

While I personally see value in use of static attacks in training programs as having a place in the study (though not like those youtube video's) there is much more than that too.

Fortunately I was never instructed in blocking. I don't see blocks existing, just technique sequences that help open up my attack into specific situational studies.

Of course the manner of 'blocking' is both hard and soft, is performed in many different manners for various sorts of openings to be crafted, and includes shifting both of basic footwork as well as correct use of the knee release and body mechanics.

Then again karate isn't for fighting, ever. I accept if you're fighting you're in the wrong frame of mind.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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