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#363853 - 10/23/07 10:41 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: cxt]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I just spent a good 30 minutes looking for a decent youtube vid of karate drills which demonstrate good beginners block building skill...couldn't find it. so I had to cheat and search outside of karate: (apparently, drilling method secrets are kept pretty tight-lipped in karate circles - either that, or most karate systems are just as you see it's youtube sampling).

A useful way to contrast a slice of two training methods is by looking at how beginners are trained in each.


bare bones, beginner, kids' blocking skill training:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHobfNGAJHE

vs. this kind of training method for beginners:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfuc58aDbN4


if you consider both, it'll reveil a core difference between active and passive skill building.

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#363854 - 10/23/07 10:41 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Don't worry, its not just karate guys who use improper application of traditional blocks. Even champion MMA fighters like Randy Couture does the same, only with undesireable consequences. Check picture in the top left.

http://www.thefightnetwork.com/news_detail.php?nid=4673
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#363855 - 10/23/07 11:06 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
ouch.

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#363856 - 10/23/07 11:27 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
ouchie wa wa!!!

Well, he didn't have his other hand chambered properly to get POWER!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#363857 - 10/24/07 05:06 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,

The reality is no matter how much is posted on youtube it never touches .001 of any system of study.

But, how do you train?
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#363858 - 10/24/07 05:25 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:





Good practice of bad applications? why would you want to develop those habits?





Good practice for introducing blocks. Or another way of putting it a way of giving a variation on introducing blocks.Dont people have to start somewhere?.

Quote:




It shouldn't be block at all in my opinion. Why would you block that way? Learning seventeen different ways to do the same thing? Everything is a block then?




Everything isnít a block but how else is the movement meant to be learned.? How would you suggest the movement for age uke be intitialy taught as? I am not sure about the people on the video but I am guessing the drill was aimed at beginners or the people on the video havenít gone much further themselves.

Quote:



Oh boy. We are a bonebreaking bunch aren't we? At least, theoretically.





I would say bones could be broken by blocking yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pant_xwqHMc

Not exactly using blocks to break bones but I should imagine wood isnt much different.
Quote:



Sure, with a bo!






Yes with a hard wood bo, not to sure with a plastic practice bo but then even minus a bo maybe bones could be broken using blocks as blocks?
Ditto.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pant_xwqHMc

Quote:



Is the elbow a bone? Elbow bone??? I thought it was a joint that could be dislocated.





The Elbow: The elbow joint is formed by three bones, the humerus, radius, and ulna

The Ligaments: Two ligaments are present in the elbow joint, the ulnar collateral ligament and the radial collateral ligament. These ligaments provide strength and support to the joint as do the surrounding muscles.
I dont think I refered to the elbow as a bone?




Quote:




Oh my. There are a couple of spots on the top of the head you don't want to get hit. Ask any pressure point specialist what will happen. DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!





Normaly I wouldnít want to get hit anywhere on the top of my head but bare knuckles against the top of the head normaly means busted knuckles. Where are these spots on the head?

Quote:





but whose bones? Uke or tori?





It depends on who is uke or tori at the time. If I am uke or tori at that time then I wont want it to be me.
Jude


Edited by jude33 (10/24/07 05:55 AM)

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#363859 - 10/24/07 05:31 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

I think that's where we disagree. I don't think these drills manage to spoon feed very well at all. There are training methods to teach newbies to defend themselves without using these 'one-step' methods...not only that, but they learn faster by NOT using these roundabout ways of training. how do you explain that?




Ed, you are right here, these types of drills are not the proper way to teach real defense against striking. I learned that real fast when I started karate at 13 and got beat up a lot by 30 something grown men. At that time in my instructor's dojo you either learned fast, got beat up every class, or quit. I don't even teach basic application of "traditional/classical" blocking until a student has developed good skill in the basics and a certain level of arm/shin/body conditioning. I teach hand/parry and movement drills as my base form of two man practice. If they come to my house to train at 6:30 in the morning I have a training area in my garage and we work grappling/karate wrestling practice. Once skill is developed in these areas then realistic application of the traditional/classical blocking techniques is learned.





Yes Medulant. I can see that point but unfortunatly not every body will stick at such a training regime. Some people see martial arts as merely a hobby.

Jude

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#363860 - 10/24/07 07:31 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
true, but in this instance, it was alot easier to find good interactive boxing, mma, muai thai isolated blocking drills that were shared. comparitively, I couldn't find similar for karate other than one-step 'block'/punch type kumite. can anything be drawn from that?
sure, why not. it supports my sense that there exists different training methods towards a common goal - in this case, drills for beginners to intercept a strike so as to not get hit.

such a basic skill, to me, does not need to be static or compliant while keeping reasonable safety in mind. like I mentioned, it's the difference between active and passive drills.

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#363861 - 10/24/07 08:22 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Med,

I must have missed this post before but those are uses of age uke I can wholeheartedly agree with.

That line drill is a terrible waste of time but it is standard Shotokan and I was made to do this sort of thing for years. Obviously it misunderstands the real use of age uke, has unreal distance, unlikely oizuki attack left hanging, stepping straight back rather than to the side, gedan barai after the counter doing nothing...I could go on.

B.

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#363862 - 10/24/07 08:23 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Ed,

Why do the two methods have to be mutually exclusive?

I was trained with both the kind of drills that you showed, they teach different things. The krav maga drill should be taught alongside the kihon kumite. the end result is an amalgam of the two forms of movement.
Kihon kumite trains your distancing and timing the basic movements against a moving target. If you don't feel blocks should be used in the way shown then you won''t find value in the training method, if you can make the blocks work in the manner shown in real situations then you will see the youtube vid as a basic training tool to be built upon. It is like another form of kata practice, not the be all and end all of training.
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