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#363843 - 10/23/07 01:17 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

med, in your opinion, is this good or bad practice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd5LG2xw-FU




Ed, that drill is garbage. It is garbage because of their usage of the attacks and defenses. The attacker's distance and intent is all wrong. I think this shows a part of what is wrong with karate at its basic level. I hope that these black belts are attempting to show a basic drill for beginners and not an advanced form of training that drill. The attacker needs to attack with more speed and from a closer distance. The attacker needs to try nail the guy with the punch. Really trying to hit your opponent forces the application out of the technique and makes the defender block properly if a good level of skill in the basics is developed. In addition, standing there while the opponent counter attacks is not good practice either. And by block properly I mean utilizing the parries inherent in all blocking techniques which are preceeded by arm crossing.
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#363844 - 10/23/07 01:30 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I think that's where we disagree. I don't think these drills manage to spoon feed very well at all. There are training methods to teach newbies to defend themselves without using these 'one-step' methods...not only that, but they learn faster by NOT using these roundabout ways of training. how do you explain that?




Ed, you are right here, these types of drills are not the proper way to teach real defense against striking. I learned that real fast when I started karate at 13 and got beat up a lot by 30 something grown men. At that time in my instructor's dojo you either learned fast, got beat up every class, or quit. I don't even teach basic application of "traditional/classical" blocking until a student has developed good skill in the basics and a certain level of arm/shin/body conditioning. I teach hand/parry and movement drills as my base form of two man practice. If they come to my house to train at 6:30 in the morning I have a training area in my garage and we work grappling/karate wrestling practice. Once skill is developed in these areas then realistic application of the traditional/classical blocking techniques is learned.
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#363845 - 10/23/07 03:32 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
med

I don't know, I think there is a danger in looking at what is a static drill on-line and drawing overreaching conclusions about the relative skills of the people involved.

We don't know what they are really doing or why.

Not saying your wrong of course.....looked pretty limp in terms of intensity to me too, just saying that a couple of min of out of context video might not be all that accurate to start with.

If nothing else, this could be nothing more than a training kinda thing for the benefit of lower ranks to learn the sequence.
Or maybe just a couple of worn out tired guys taped at the end of workout.
Or maybe the attacker was scared about going hard on the bigger guy.

I don't know.
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#363846 - 10/23/07 03:53 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I know what you mean CXT, however, I can usually look at someone's basics and kata and tell what kind of fighter they are and judge the effectiveness of their training if I know their level/rank. Its not 100%, but I'm pretty good at it. Its like seeing someone hit the focus mitts and determining their fighting skill within a certain range.
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#363847 - 10/23/07 03:53 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: cxt]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Chris,

As a qualification, I think Med did put in a disclaimer or two:

Quote:

I hope that these black belts are attempting to show a basic drill for beginners and not an advanced form of training that drill. (And) Ed, you are right here, these types of drills are not the proper way to teach real defense against striking.




And if all we have to go on are the videos then they do deserve criticism as is. Intent or not, these are just lame drills that deserve a finger pointing at them to say, "Just don't do it like this."

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#363848 - 10/23/07 06:49 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

med, in your opinion, is this good or bad practice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd5LG2xw-FU




If you are doing this.

You might as well be doing TKD. (oh no I didn't!)
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#363849 - 10/23/07 06:55 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: cxt]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Ed

I think you have to start somewhere.




I agree, but even starting like this is bad practice in my opinion. What can be learned from this? Timing? nope..how to do blocking? nope..How to develop a skillset that will get you beat up? yep!

Quote:

Watching newbies learn to "block" and punch and learn footwork in boxing looks pretty awkward too.

The problem however is where/when people never get past the "training wheels" stage...IMO.




Yeah,but you have to get the good adjustable training wheels, not the ones from the dollar store.

Quote:

As far as the youtube thing.....IMO its worth kinda depends on what the people doing it are getting out of it...how they understand what they are doing......IMO for a onlooker to decide if its "good or bad" is almost impossible.




Not impossible. I think I've (and otherts here) have been doing this long enough to give a qualified opinion that it suxx.

Quote:

I can't tell if they are mentally "locked" into a pattern or if they can pull those technqiues out and use them when and where they are needed.

Wish I had a better answer to your question....but I just don't know.




You can tell, I can tell, I think we all can tell by the video.

I practiced the same way in TKD years ago. It was bad practice then and it's still bad practice now.
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#363850 - 10/23/07 07:17 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

med, in your opinion, is this good or bad practice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd5LG2xw-FU





My unqualified opinion.
Good practice for introducing blocks, stances and punches.I think this is going back to Itosu's ideas of teaching. I think the techniques were hidden in the use of basic blocks.




Good practice of bad applications? why would you want to develop those habits?


Quote:

Bad practice for working out the real applications and use subject to a real fight. Getting around the hidden meanings of blocks. I can see medulants point on skill building.
Shouldnt it be block and simutanously strike?




It shouldn't be block at all in my opinion. Why would you block that way? Learning seventeen different ways to do the same thing? Everything is a block then?

Quote:

I can also see his point on having the ability to break bones using blocks. I have never broken anybodies bones using blocks as blocks but I have damaged a persons forearm tissue using my forearm when intercepting a punch.




Oh boy. We are a bonebreaking bunch aren't we? At least, theoretically.

Quote:

Ditto with the shoulder. Damaged the guys shoulder tissue
but didint break any bones.

I think some one with a higher skill level than mine could achieve breakage in bones.




Sure, with a bo!

Quote:

Soto uke springs to mind. If a persons wrist is grabbed and the elbow area is hammered using soto uke means one damaged elbow.

The knees can be used as blocks. They can also be used as a point to lever an elbow break.




Is the elbow a bone? Elbow bone??? I thought it was a joint that could be dislocated.

Quote:

The top of the head can be used to break the knuckles.




Oh my. There are a couple of spots on the top of the head you don't want to get hit. Ask any pressure point specialist what will happen. DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!

Quote:

So I believe Medulant when he says bones can be broken
using blocks.

Jude




Yes, but whose bones? Uke or tori?
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#363851 - 10/23/07 07:23 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: butterfly]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
butterfly

I don't disagree, that's why I said that it looked "limp" to me.

Just don't know the context, which would help.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#363852 - 10/23/07 07:28 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: BrianS]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
BrianS

Again, I don't disagree, like I said, it looks "limp" to me as well.

I'd still like to know what they were TRYING to show.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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