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#363833 - 10/23/07 12:26 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Well, Brian, Age Uke is a strike. It is a strike with the forearm, elbow, or fist (similar to an uppercut). It slides inside of an attack. The chamber as an application is a grappling technique. It is overhooking the opponent's arm. In Matsubayashi we don't chamber on the hip. We chamber high at the chest level. This allows for more effective grappling which was passed on to Nagamine from Choki Motobu. In addition, the Age Uke can be used as a grappling technique such as an underhook or arm bar (the wrestling restraint technique not the submission technique).
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#363834 - 10/23/07 12:40 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Well, Brian, Age Uke is a strike. It is a strike with the forearm, elbow, or fist (similar to an uppercut). It slides inside of an attack. The chamber as an application is a grappling technique. It is overhooking the opponent's arm. In Matsubayashi we don't chamber on the hip. We chamber high at the chest level. This allows for more effective grappling which was passed on to Nagamine from Choki Motobu. In addition, the Age Uke can be used as a grappling technique such as an underhook or arm bar (the wrestling restraint technique not the submission technique).




We use age uke in very similar fashion then. We too 'chamber' the hand very high(I think all gojuka do). The 'chamber' could be an elbow or pulling your opponent downward while forcing the forearm upward into the asophugas. (sp?)
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#363835 - 10/23/07 05:05 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: BrianS]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
I wrote a nice long post explaining my views on how to use basic blocks and I've come back two days later to find its not shown up!

The condensed version:

The idea that basic blocks apply force against force is wrong. A linnear force will not affect a horizontal force, i,e, all blocks should be deflections whether using the palm or the forearm to contact the attcking limb.
Using basic blocks to "strike" an incoming attack is something different and should change how you make your block.

Basic blocks are complete defensive systems. Input = attack/Output = Opening/counterstrike/unbalance etc.

A formalised structure is used to offer an optimised defensive/offensive position i.e less of you is covered (and a higher margin for error in application) than if you covered up with a boxing gaurd (a less effective platform for counter striking etc) but more cover offered than a palm parry (which has a higher margin of error and is a more effective platform for counter striking etc).

Basic blocks are constructed of a preparation movement (extended reverse hand) and chamber (lead arm) which cross to form the block.
In application, depending on the range and strength of attack the various parts of the "block" come into play in different combinations of parry, strike, grab and block to change your position from defender to aggressor by means of either fast counter striking, creation of a clear opening for a power strike or allowing opportunities to control movement (grappling etc).

This phillosophy of breaking down major movements into it's smaller aspects is how I understand all Karate to be applied, however I don't feel, at least in Shotokan, that this level of dissection is wholly relevant to understanding kata application. That to me is a slightly different ball game.

Med, just out of curiosity, how many times have you broken bones with your blocks?
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#363836 - 10/23/07 06:55 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
med, in your opinion, is this good or bad practice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd5LG2xw-FU

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#363837 - 10/23/07 07:30 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

med, in your opinion, is this good or bad practice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd5LG2xw-FU





My unqualified opinion.
Good practice for introducing blocks, stances and punches.I think this is going back to Itosu's ideas of teaching. I think the techniques were hidden in the use of basic blocks.

Bad practice for working out the real applications and use subject to a real fight. Getting around the hidden meanings of blocks. I can see medulants point on skill building.
Shouldnt it be block and simutanously strike?

I can also see his point on having the ability to break bones using blocks. I have never broken anybodies bones using blocks as blocks but I have damaged a persons forearm tissue using my forearm when intercepting a punch.

Ditto with the shoulder. Damaged the guys shoulder tissue
but didint break any bones.

I think some one with a higher skill level than mine could achieve breakage in bones.

Soto uke springs to mind. If a persons wrist is grabbed and the elbow area is hammered using soto uke means one damaged elbow.

The knees can be used as blocks. They can also be used as a point to lever an elbow break.

The top of the head can be used to break the knuckles.

So I believe Medulant when he says bones can be broken
using blocks.

Jude

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#363838 - 10/23/07 07:52 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
help me understand what skills are being built with those drills. I didn't see them training those 'blocks' as parry, jam with elbows/knees, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc.

are you suggesting those drills somehow lead up to self-discovery of hidden applications?
why not just start with drilling 2-person parry, jam with elbows/knees, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc.
I mean, if you want to build a skill, then why not drill the actual progressive training of that skill as oppossed to far removed esoteric form?

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#363839 - 10/23/07 08:27 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

help me understand what skills are being built with those drills. I didn't see them training those 'blocks' as parry, jam with elbows/knees, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc.

are you suggesting those drills somehow lead up to self-discovery of hidden applications?
why not just start with drilling 2-person parry, jam with elbows/knees, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc.
I mean, if you want to build a skill, then why not drill the actual progressive training of that skill as oppossed to far removed esoteric form?




Hi ED.
My unqualified thoughts.
As much as I agree with your line of thinking, I think both you and medulant are right. The problem I think is your seeing things from the point of view of a capable practioner. In other words your already good. You have the skills.

Ok lets take a young person. Say 21 years of age. Has never had a fight. Doesnt understand anything about fighting.They want to train in Karate. Minimum physical capabilities.

They have no conditioning eg soft mucle tissue therefore using the body as a weapon at that time, forget it.
For them the video is a good level of achievement.
The discovery part would come later. If at all.


I think I can see Medulants point of view. I think I can see your point of view.


How would you train them? I think as per the video.They wouldnt comprehend that a block can be an elbow destruction. Or the top of the head destroys knuckles. They wouldnt even understand how to get destroyed knuckles. I think this can also apply to some people who have done martial arts for some time. No dis-respect to the people on the video but they look to me like they are at that level.
Spoon feed them?

I think your seeing others as having the same experience as your self .From my observations a lot of people havent.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (10/23/07 08:44 AM)

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#363840 - 10/23/07 09:55 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I think that's where we disagree. I don't think these drills manage to spoon feed very well at all. There are training methods to teach newbies to defend themselves without using these 'one-step' methods...not only that, but they learn faster by NOT using these roundabout ways of training. how do you explain that?

I think this type of training holds the very high risk of never escaping the compliant mindset of them. in addition, it seems it would manage to develop the wrong kind of skill by fostering more than a few misconceptions....one of which would be the risk of students seeing kata application with the same mindset.

I'm guessing what Itosu had in mind was trying to come up with a training method and drills safe for teaching enmasse to a feild full of young teens. The focus/context seems to have been experimenting with developing a cultural niche way of physical fitness in preparation to later possible military service. of course, that was the apparent public face of things taught. What Itosu chose to share and use as training method privately can be assumed that it was something quite different.

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#363841 - 10/23/07 12:33 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ed, I can see where Med's coming from as well, so I know what Jude's trying to explain.

However, have to agree more with you (Ed) and Brian on these things. If you are practing in this format as displayed on YouTube, this is what other MA folk laugh at when thinking about karate. This is a "fundamentalist" reading of karate and taking literally what has been shown and trying to make something work that really resides outside this box, but using the same basic motions as primers for more usable techniques. And I'll give a personal anecdote (and I know, your mileage does and will vary ) with a San-dan in a more traditional Japanese style that tried to block using a gedan berai to one of my kohai's kicks...yep, arm broken. I have literally known this to happen.

And as Brian stated previously, can anyone say that they see two karate-ka outside of ippon kumite actually do these things when they are sparring? They don't because you just don't use these techniques these ways...they don't work when your attaker is not screaming at you in a zen-kutsudachi before firing off that hip or high chest chambered punch.

Ed's right on the money here, the practice shown on YouTube (outside some historical or stylistic requirement within a particular system) offers so little in real utility that it begs the question of practicing this at all with actual use in mind.

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#363842 - 10/23/07 01:11 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Ed

I think you have to start somewhere.

Watching newbies learn to "block" and punch and learn footwork in boxing looks pretty awkward too.

The problem however is where/when people never get past the "training wheels" stage...IMO.

As far as the youtube thing.....IMO its worth kinda depends on what the people doing it are getting out of it...how they understand what they are doing......IMO for a onlooker to decide if its "good or bad" is almost impossible.

I can't tell if they are mentally "locked" into a pattern or if they can pull those technqiues out and use them when and where they are needed.

Wish I had a better answer to your question....but I just don't know.


Edited by cxt (10/23/07 01:15 PM)
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