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#363823 - 10/22/07 06:51 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It is interesting how a beginning tool, naming a technique, can remain binding far beyond the original intent, to help a new student shape their technique.

It is an old adage that you keep your true name hidden so others can't control you. Well karate proves why, those intial naming conventions, useful beginner tools, spawn neverending discussion about the reality the name doesn't convey.



exactly. there are no 'blocks'.




I disagree, there are blocks in karate. The type that break. They break balance, hands, arms, shins, etc. as they block. I personally like fighting people who don't use any type of blocking techniques. They make it easy for me.




Easy for you to break their bones? You have done this how many times?

There is a difference between what it might do and reality.
Do you really have to hold your hand on your hip and do a particular "technique" to block?
I'm curious about this way of thinking. I always considered that a sport version.

I guess I'll need some video or something to see what you mean.
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#363824 - 10/22/07 07:07 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: BrianS]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I don't know what you call it, but I still see blocks when people are practicing blocka--and at least it gives a name to the motion so folk know what people are talking about. And regardless of all the uses of a block, the way you practice its motion still has the name attached to it.

But, I have to say that no...I would not do a hard block to an incoming technique. Further, I am suspect of the hard blocking techniques that are meant to be used force-on-force against a limb and have legitimate deterent value, especially the basic down block to a kick that seems to be almost ubiquitously taught. Gedan berai with forearm to shin of opponent equals potentially having your arm broken.

Hard blocks also beg the question of speed when used with folk who don't actively chamber from the hip to punch. Try hard soto-ukes against a boxer...ain't gonna work.

And when the exception to this is raised with use against untrained attackers, most folk I have seen, though untrained, will gravitate toward a more boxing like punch instead of chambering from the hip or high on the chest.

Traditional blocks, in my opinion, have their place in training the motion to allow use of the motion, but are not necessarily used in the rigid format of block-punch counters that are generally trained, but have little consequence whenever I have seen two karate-ka go at it.

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#363825 - 10/22/07 08:52 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: butterfly]
BrianS Offline
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

But, I have to say that no...I would not do a hard block to an incoming technique. Further, I am suspect of the hard blocking techniques that are meant to be used force-on-force against a limb and have legitimate deterent value,




Bone on bone is not a good idea in my opinion. I believe one of the philosophies of Goju(hard/soft) is to hit hard with soft and hit soft with hard.

Quote:

especially the basic down block to a kick that seems to be almost ubiquitously taught. Gedan berai with forearm to shin of opponent equals potentially having your arm broken.





Could you dumb it down a little for me Brad,lol?

Seriously, if anyone out there is practicing this as a legitimate self defense technique I would love to see it on video or let me be your uke.

How about age uke(rising block)? Used to stop a stick, knife, crowbar,etc....ludicrous!! Or juji uke (X block)? Used to stop a bo, meanwhile you break all your digits.

Quote:

Hard blocks also beg the question of speed when used with folk who don't actively chamber from the hip to punch. Try hard soto-ukes against a boxer...ain't gonna work.





Chamber!!

Quote:

And when the exception to this is raised with use against untrained attackers, most folk I have seen, though untrained, will gravitate toward a more boxing like punch instead of chambering from the hip or high on the chest.

Traditional blocks, in my opinion, have their place in training the motion to allow use of the motion, but are not necessarily used in the rigid format of block-punch counters that are generally trained, but have little consequence whenever I have seen two karate-ka go at it.




Exactly. Blocks, in my opinion, are the most misrepresented, misunderstood, sportanized, (is that a word), downfall of karate and the way the outside world views it.

If I'm not mistaken, the word "uke" is loosely translated as "to receive". How is that a block?
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#363826 - 10/22/07 11:09 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Brian, I am not sure if they have elbow destructions in Goju, but they are all over Shorin Ryu. Put an elbow on someone's fist when the punch and its relatively easy to break someone's fingers. Although not as common you can also break someone's forearm as well if you add tai sabaki and get the angle when using the destruction. Or if you come down with it if someone punches to the body. As for kicks you have to get a good angle to crack a shin and is not very common, but if you defend right it can be a fight ender. It is these types of blocks which are different from real fighting application of kata and much of the guess work that goes into many applications.
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#363827 - 10/22/07 11:16 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
We have elbow and other joint destructions in the sense that the joint is dislocated from the grappling applications that look like a block in kata.


Quote:

As for kicks you have to get a good angle to crack a shin and is not very common, but if you defend right it can be a fight ender.




Everything does have to fall into place during a self defense situation. I would not rely too heavily on one that was not that common.

Are you talking about breaking the shin with the elbow?
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#363828 - 10/22/07 11:22 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yeah, I'm talking about striking and not grappling. I'm talking about real ways to block attacks from karate techniques. As far as the elbow breaking the shin, yes, I am referring to the bones in the foot, ankle, and lower shin (not the big thick part). The thing that makes karate effective is that I don't count on breaking an opponent's bones using my defense. The defense is quite effective in stropping strikes and getting to a superior position. The broken bones are icing on the cake.
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#363829 - 10/22/07 11:32 PM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I was thinking the same way, Brian - so I knew what you meant. 'block' (in quotes) as in: hard blocking a straight punch that someone throws and leaves hanging out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd5LG2xw-FU

again with the disclaimers for the people that just have to mention how deadly they are with every post so people wouldn't think for a second they train ANYTHING that can be imagined as ineffective: I'm not saying you aren't deadly...I'm just saying I don't see the merit in long-term training 'blocks' such as those in the video I reference. I'm also not saying anyone here trains ineffectively. If some train 'blocks' temporaraly in order to move onto bigger and better things or even if they train 'blocks' indefinitely, that's their business.


parry, jam, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc - if people want to include any movement where an arm bends to be defined as a block, then sure, blocks are essential. but the term sucks because block is usually associated with 'blocking'.


just so we have the terms right:

block = an unspecified parry, jam, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc.

vs.

'block' = the sucky kind of hard blocking a compliant straight punch.


personally, I reserve the term block to mean 'block'. which is why I say there are no 'blocks'....there are parry, jam, guard, check, forearm strikes, and the like...but no 'blocks'.

and as for the term Uke:

Japanese uke translation: to receive.

Americanized 'uke' mistranslation: 'block'


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#363830 - 10/23/07 12:02 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Yeah, I'm talking about striking and not grappling. I'm talking about real ways to block attacks from karate techniques. As far as the elbow breaking the shin, yes, I am referring to the bones in the foot, ankle, and lower shin (not the big thick part).




( must say this in one breath)
You are one bad dude!!! One bad dude I tell ya!!!
I guess all of us karateka are supposed to be hard core, hairy chested, bone crushing , "I'll break your foot, ankle, or the lower shin ( not the big thick part) kind of macho guys.......who use the term "effective karate" somehow in every other post in an effort to support our elitism and mega ego's. "Bone breaking is icing on the cake, baby, icing on the cake,yeah!!!"



Now, can we talk about traditional blocks for a sec? What would be your application for age uke? Chamber, hand on the hip and all.


Edited by BrianS (10/23/07 12:05 AM)
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#363831 - 10/23/07 12:13 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, the thing is whether you call them blocks or receiving techniques, elbow destrutions are a part of things such as Gedan Uke and Chudan Shuto Uke, in addition to being an application of elbow techniques in kata. The thread title refers to traditional blocks. These things are in traditional blocks. I personally have been applying such techniques since about 1991. Its funny because it came from me trying to apply the traditional blocks the way many do that I discovered they worked, but not in that way. At first I thought that my timing was messed up, then I realized that there were more effective ways to apply such blocks. Its just about understanding the karate we do, not trying to prove anything about how we train or how deadly we are.
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#363832 - 10/23/07 12:17 AM Re: Traditional blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I was thinking the same way, Brian




Great minds...

Quote:

- so I knew what you meant. 'block' (in quotes) as in: hard blocking a straight punch that someone throws and leaves hanging out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd5LG2xw-FU




Now, isn't that ridiculous?



Quote:

again with the disclaimers for the people that just have to mention how deadly they are with every post so people wouldn't think for a second they train ANYTHING that can be imagined as ineffective: I'm not saying you aren't deadly...I'm just saying I don't see the merit in long-term training 'blocks' such as those in the video I reference. I'm also not saying anyone here trains ineffectively. If some train 'blocks' temporaraly in order to move onto bigger and better things or even if they train 'blocks' indefinitely, that's their business.




Attention! I am so deadly that my karate blocks could break an elephants back with one blow. The only person deadlier than me is Chuck Norris. Now, back to the thread.


Quote:

parry, jam, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc - if people want to include any movement where an arm bends to be defined as a block, then sure, blocks are essential. but the term sucks because block is usually associated with 'blocking'.




Exactly. It should be clear as a whistle to the readers now. The term 'block' really got us karateka all screwed up!!!


Quote:

just so we have the terms right:

block = an unspecified parry, jam, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc.

vs.

'block' = the sucky kind of hard blocking a compliant straight punch.


personally, I reserve the term block to mean 'block'. which is why I say there are no 'blocks'....there are parry, jam, guard, check, forearm strikes, and the like...but no 'blocks'.

and as for the term Uke:

Japanese uke translation: to receive.

Americanized 'uke' mistranslation: 'block'




I knew I was right!

When you 'block' you put yourself right back on the defensive to 'block' the next attack. Why would you do that? You should address the attack offensively! Ofcourse, if you are a bonebreaker like some of us, would be no problem.

Therefore, a 'block' is actually the uke receiving,correct? Is he receiving a block? Me thinks not. That would mean there are NO BLOCKS as we know it in karate. Thankyou very much, I'll be here all year.

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