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#363691 - 10/05/07 07:00 PM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Saisho]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Lineage is a good indicator of skill if you can legitimately trace it back (and what prospects would do that).




Holy crap. Do you really believe that?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#363692 - 10/05/07 07:02 PM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: hedkikr]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Look really closely... I've got 'em pasted on the bottom of my right foot.

_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#363693 - 10/05/07 07:30 PM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Saisho]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

In fact, I am only a 5th-Dan and I am in the top 10 ranking people.




Actually, I was under the impression that 5th Dan is a relatively high rank. Is it not the rank where you are tested for all of the skills present in Shorin Ryu? Not to say that one does not advance technically beyond 5th Dan, but at that rank you should be legit. And by legit I mean technically excellent and not one to triffle with. Basically a 5th Dan is NO JOKE in karate. As for credentials, if karate ranks could be considered a credential, I would think 5th Dan would be an impressive one.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#363694 - 10/05/07 08:31 PM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: medulanet]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

In fact, I am only a 5th-Dan and I am in the top 10 ranking people.




Actually, I was under the impression that 5th Dan is a relatively high rank. Is it not the rank where you are tested for all of the skills present in Shorin Ryu? Not to say that one does not advance technically beyond 5th Dan, but at that rank you should be legit. And by legit I mean technically excellent and not one to triffle with. Basically a 5th Dan is NO JOKE in karate. As for credentials, if karate ranks could be considered a credential, I would think 5th Dan would be an impressive one.




I remember when I started training, 5th-Dans were few and far between. I told myself that I would hope to be able to reach that some day. Now that I am there, I see ways that I can improve. I consider my rank well earned and deserved, but to the lay person who sees higher ranks everywhere, it doesn't say much. They can not see that my test actually spanned over two years. Taba Sensei told me a list of things he wanted me to work on and correct. Two years later, and spur of the moment, he tested me and recalling the list from his memory told me that I had done what he asked and corrected everything (then he gave me a longer list).

As for knowing all of the skills.... 5th-Dan is the first rank that one is eligible for Renshi, the first of the three 'Master' titles. However, it is not automatic with Taba Sensei and I don't expect to see it anytime soon. I know all of the material and he has evaluated my skills and my ability to teach, but as you said, there is still technical advancement to be made.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#363695 - 10/05/07 08:46 PM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: BrianS]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

Lineage is a good indicator of skill if you can legitimately trace it back (and what prospects would do that).




Holy crap. Do you really believe that?




Yes I do. Let me put it into perspective for you, so you can see what I mean. Keep in mind that this is without seeing the skills of a person.

I am going to assume that you are a highly skilled person and it is commonly known that you are. Would you promote someone that you did not feel deserved it? Lets assume not.

So, I meet someone who says (and can show) that they are a shodan under the teachings of BrianS. I should have a good understanding of what quality this person is for you to have promoted them to such a rank.

Next, I meet someone who says they trained under BrianS for 6 years and then began training under JoeSchmoe for a couple of years and received their Shodan. If I know of JoeSchmoe, I can base my understanding of the persons expected skills off of what I know. If I do not know JoeSchmoe, I would have to wonder why you, a skilled and demanding instructor, did not promote this person and I would have to base my judgement of the persons expected skill off of the fact that you did not promote them.

You see, it only works in the positive. Does that mean that the second person is not skilled? No. It means that I don't know, but I should be able to guess how good the first person is. Lineage will give credit or discredit if the start of the lineage is known to be good or bad. If you don't know, the process falls apart.

You see, it doesn't work in the real world (as I implied in my original statement). There are too many people that give rank out and accept undeserved rank. This, of course, is my opinion.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#363696 - 10/05/07 09:27 PM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Saisho]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Tony,

You write "just because a person is an M.D., does not mean they know a lot about physical anatomy. Depending on their field, they may know a lot or the may know very little and know a lot about diseases and medicine."

I'm pretty sure this isn't correct. Back in my day my friends attending Medical School at Temple had to take 4 semesters of anatomy (essentially cavader disection), just as physical therapists took 2 semesters and dentists took one semeseter back then.

I just took a look at the Harvard Medical Schohol curricula and it appears that even today that remains somewhat a constant though I'm sure course content has changed.

While medical specilization does make the MD move in different directions, they all start with the same beginning, for nobody really is sure where their studies will lead in the long run.

Of course 4 semesters of dissection doesn't make one an expert, they know a heck of a lot more than those who haven't done that too.

As far as standards in the martial arts, I reject that titles, and rank mean much, instead it's what a person can do or really teach that matters.

In our group the beginning qualification for an instructor is 15 continous years training under the same instructor, and that is just the beginning.

For outside students or instructors joining the program, regardless of the number of years they've studied, the qualification to teach what we share is the same. And there's no short cut, because to teach what we're sharing you first have to walk the same walk.

I don't seek students, they have to work to know we exist, but they seem to find us the same.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#363697 - 10/05/07 11:35 PM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Victor Smith]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

I reject that titles, and rank mean much, instead it's what a person can do or really teach that matters..... In our group the beginning qualification for an instructor is 15 continous years training under the same instructor, and that is just the beginning.




I would say that titles do mean something to you, you just have higher standards.

As for the M.D. comment I made, I thought it might be misunderstood. In my M.S. in Anatomy degree program, we had the same courses and instructors that taught for the Medical School. Doctors are taught a good deal. However, depending on the field, they do not always use the knowledge and if they are doing something that doesn't require Neuro/Muscular/Skeletal (maybe like dermatology or OB-GYN), they likely will forget much of what they learned regarding Neuro/Muscular/Skeletal issues. I interact with doctors of all types and most are brilliant in their areas, but not so knowledgeable in others.

It is always a challenge to get complete ideas accross in forum posts.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#363698 - 10/05/07 11:38 PM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Saisho]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
a person could have a PhD and be top 1% in anatomy or any other field - they could write and lecture a dissertation on body mechanics and vital areas as it relates to MA while at the same time, not be able to punch their way out of a wet paper bag.

similarly, someone could prove a paper lineage thru association which is direct and impressive, but perhaps have less than 10 hours of actually being trained by people IN that particular lineage.
isn't it conceivable that someone could have trained for 15 years with a vanilla shorin group, make 4th dan, then start a dojo. THEN, they switch association to a more impressive on-paper lineage, take a seminar or two with the founder of the association every 1 or 2 years, rank to 5th dan, and suddenly 'forget' to mention or gloss over where their past training actually comes from? Literally, overnight they could go from 4th dan in vanilla ryu, to 5th dan in a direct lineage...with no significant difference in the Art they propegated as a vanilla-ryu sensei. a paper tiger.

In that hypothetical, what the prospective student is really getting, is an instructor from the vanilla karate, who took a few seminars/classes from the founder of an association who has a credible lineage/background.

it's called: qualification by association - and it's more often bunk. The reason it's largely not trustworthy as an indicator is since that link to the association could be more financial/political than in actual Art transmission. Thats not guarenteeing it's always the case, but since it IS hard to prove; there will always be those taking advantage of that loophole. A hint to whether or not you are dealing with a paper tiger sensei, is if they highlight and stress their association as 'proof' of their art as oppossed to where their instruction actually comes from.

it's a subtle difference - do they say "I've been associated for X years with Y organization headed by 10th dan Mr. Z" or do they word it "I've trained X years directly under 10th dan Mr. Z"

Those subtleties are not always picked up on by the wide-eyed prospective student gazing at all the certificates on the wall as the instructor mentions his association while pointing to them.

in order for someone to honestly claim a draw from a particular teacher - enough to propegate that particular art/training method, they have to had trained consistantly and directly with that particular teacher for years. not a once a year session when he's in town during a tour.


again, since it's nearly impossible for a prospective student to determine the amount of actual training the teacher received from the associated lineage, it does not *necessarily* carry much weight as a credential....is my warning and point.

as people warn: "Caveat Empor"...I just like to try and spell things out.


bottom line: are you getting a teacher that mostly represents the propegation of an association, or mostly represents the transmission of the art?

I happen to be in the camp of thought that says you don't even need association, rank and title structures in order to transmit an art. Then again, I don't think the franchise business model is a good one for propegating a martial art.

someone asks for credentials, I'd say just take a class. if you like it, then keep going...if you don't like it, then stop going. If they have a contract, or 'pay up-front' policy, then don't even bother.

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#363699 - 10/06/07 08:35 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Ed, I agree 100%. I am speaking of how things should work (I think I made that statement) and you are speaking of how most people operate. I know that is how it is, but I also know that 99.9% of the people that would come to take classes would not know to ask the important questions they should.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#363700 - 10/08/07 03:48 PM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Saisho]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Lineage is a good indicator of skill if you can legitimately trace it back (and what prospects would do that).




Holy crap. Do you really believe that?




Yes I do. ...




OK, so do I have the record for nested quotes??

I think who you got your rank from is VERY indicative of how good you are. I don't care if it's some 10th degree fraud, and there have been cases of legitimate masters selling rank on their death beds. However if an excellent karateka not known for passing out promotions like candy gave you a high rank, I've got to believe you earned it.
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