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#363671 - 10/05/07 12:42 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Saisho]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Tony, I understand what you are trying to make about your karate. I think the point some people are trying to make is that a name registered on an okinawan website, a college degree, a prestigous teacher who you see a couple times a year, and what ever rank you have don't make your karate effective. Your skill does. For me effective karate means application, not pretty kata. If you can use what you train to do in the manner that you intend, then isn't that all you really need? I train with my current teacher from Florida and I go and train with the okinawans you mentioned because I believe they can help me improve the effectiveness of my karate. I don't need my name on a website, I don't need rank from them, I don't need their patch, I need strong karate. The point is that none of your points are credentials of having strong karate. I know a lot of doctors black belts who knew a lot about anatomy, however, it sure didn't make their karate very strong at all. I don't think he is attacking your karate, he has never seen it, but I agree that depending on your definition of effective/good karate, those credentials are not very strong. For example, does Taba have any students who do not have good karate? Are there any teachers on that website who do not have good karate? Are there any anatomy experts who do not have good karate. If the answer is yes, then your points are not that strong.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#363672 - 10/05/07 01:45 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Saisho]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Yes, There are lots of Matsubayashi-Ryu dojos in Ohio and many in the Dayton area. However, all of the Dayton area dojos belong to associations that are headed by a self appointed U.S. 'Master'. None are affiliated with Okinawa.




headed by Nagamine's son:
http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.com/index.php?id=Dojo&dojo=US

This association trumps yours in the Ohio area, since Nagamine's son inherited Matsubayashi:
www.mastinkarate.com
http://www.mastinkarate.com/about.html


even so, the prestige of being affiliated to a legitimate lineage name, does not say anything as to quality of instruction....or quality of art transmitted for that matter. That 'kid' looks too young to be heading a dojo, yet his association qualification is pristine. can't get any more associated than with the inheritor of a legitimate system...right? 'association' especially nowadays, doesn't mean a whole lot in and of itself.



you could have been trained mostly by the self-appointed US masters you mention and have just recently joined Mr. Taba's group. btw, is there a 'Shogen ryu' dojo in Okinawa? The group looks brand new. How long has Shogen ryu and it's association been in existence? who appointed him 10th dan?


My point is, if I were singling out affiliation as a credential, I'd have to go with the inheritor of the system's (Mr. Nagamine's son) group, as oppossed to an offshoot appointing themselves a 10th dan and a new patch.
That's IF I were only using affiliation as a credential, that is.

start-up orgs have been known to 'accelerate' rank advancement time-frames in order to spread it's roots as wide reaching as possible. put instructors on a fast-track, recruit existing matsubayashi students/sensei and grandfather their rank in - all so they are in the position to propegate the org's numbers. That would affect the quality of instruction.

so I think a good question to ask as credential is...how long has the instructor been consecutively training, which arts/org have they trained in, and how long has their current organization been in existance. how long have they trained under their current instructor...etc

those are the kinds of questions I'd ask...but then again...I'm not exactly a noob.

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#363673 - 10/05/07 02:15 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

That 'kid' looks too young to be heading a dojo, yet his association qualification is pristine.




Actually Ed, Mastin is no "kid", unless you consider mid 30's a kid. I have trained with him and he is also associated with my teacher in Florida. His karate is solid.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#363674 - 10/05/07 07:33 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
no, mid-30's is not a kid - he 'looks' young, was the point. not calling anything or anybody out, just saying association in itself doesn't tell the whole story of qualification. I suppose just as 'looks' are sometimes deceiving.

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#363675 - 10/05/07 07:45 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Guys...remember...this thread is about what 'credentials' means to you. 'You should check out their credentials' was the advice given to clueless parents looking to enroll their kids in karate. So, going on that, if someone comes to your door looking for them, it's obvious that different folks are going to have different understandings of what 'credentials' means.

For someone like me, it comes down to word of mouth reputation/recommendaton with a follow up on the mat. I didn't ask about 'papers', thought it was rather...'rude'...to enquire about rank. It didn't occur for me ask about style, lineage, who is your teacher, etc. Actually, starting MA completely blind...the single most important criteria was...behavior. As an adult learner, I had the luxury of being able to closely observe others in class - student/teacher dynamics and learn about them as people. Did I like what I saw, observed, and sensed about the them? If I was a parent, enrolling a child, it would be harder to nail down these intangible aspects that are important to me.


Edited by harlan (10/05/07 08:06 AM)

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#363676 - 10/05/07 09:26 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas

I think it would be rude to inquire about rank and certificates.

Let's take my current Judo sensei. He is a blackbelt, but I'm not sure what rank he is. He told me he started when he was six or seven when we were talking about my son. He has physically shown me techniques and I can tell his Judo is very good, that's enough for me.

Another guy showed me his techniques in Aikido, which were terrible. He qualified himself as a fourth dan who has been training for 18yrs. Maybe he has and it just takes a loooong time to catch on??? His 'credentials' meant nothing to me. What he can do or cannot do is what matteres to me.

Certificates, references to lineage, true masters, Okinawa, Japan, etc..don't mean a darn thing to me. That's all about money, I'm not interested in what you paid for, I'm interested in what you can teach me.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#363677 - 10/05/07 09:56 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Ed_Morris]
bearich Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Dayton, OH
Quote:

headed by Nagamine's son:
http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.com/index.php?id=Dojo&dojo=US

This association trumps yours in the Ohio area, since Nagamine's son inherited Matsubayashi:
www.mastinkarate.com
http://www.mastinkarate.com/about.html

even so, the prestige of being affiliated to a legitimate lineage name, does not say anything as to quality of instruction....or quality of art transmitted for that matter. That 'kid' looks too young to be heading a dojo, yet his association qualification is pristine. can't get any more associated than with the inheritor of a legitimate system...right? 'association' especially nowadays, doesn't mean a whole lot in and of itself.

you could have been trained mostly by the self-appointed US masters you mention and have just recently joined Mr. Taba's group. btw, is there a 'Shogen ryu' dojo in Okinawa? The group looks brand new. How long has Shogen ryu and it's association been in existence? who appointed him 10th dan?




Ed, please allow me to answer some of the questions you posted here.

First, saying which of these organizations trumps another would be a circular arguement either side could make. The style was given to Nagamine's son at the time of his death. However, Taba (and a few other Matsubayashi masters) were of higher rank and had more training under Nagamine at the time. Whether more weight is given to rank and time training or who heads the parent style is a debate either side can justify.

Is there a Shogen-Ryu dojo in Okinawa - yes. If I recall correctly, it is ran by an Maeda Sensei (an 8th Dan). And while I certainly cannot read kanji, if you can I'm sure the location is listed somewhere on the offical Shogen-Ryu site Link.

Shogen-Ryu was founded in 1997 after Shoshin Nagamine's death by Kensei Taba, with the assistance of two other high ranking Matsubayashi-Ryu masters, Takeshi Tamaki and Seie Shiroma. At the time of Nagamine's death, Taba had been both a 9th Dan (awareded by Nagamine Sensei directly) and President of Matsubayashi-Ryu for a few years. Taba was promoted to 10th Dan by the All-Okinawan Karate-Do Association.

Quote:

so I think a good question to ask as credential is...how long has the instructor been consecutively training, which arts/org have they trained in, and how long has their current organization been in existance. how long have they trained under their current instructor...etc




All good questions here. I would also add, can the instructor logically explain why certain moves or techniques are performed certain ways?

Those of us with enough experience under our belts (so to say) has surely asked a question about a particular move or technique only to receive an answer of "well that's just the way its done." If an instructor themselves cannot explain why a certain move is performed a certain way, then odds are it falls back to potentially poor training. Now this isn't to say that an instructor is required to know every facet of every move (we're all human after all), but when an instructor brushes it off, sweeps the question under the rug, and makes no effort to expand their own knowledge; then to me it should reflect on the creditential of the instructor in question.

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#363678 - 10/05/07 10:03 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: harlan]
Blackrainbow Offline
Dragon

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 220
Loc: Brandon Fl.USA
I agree that belonging to an org is no guarantee of quality instruction. That goes for any association. If such were the case M.D's would all be great top quality doctors who never get sued. But at least with an org that has some recognized lineage and standing you have a better chance then with the "mail in your $500 variety. Just to answer Ed's question--Taba was certified by the same board that certified Grandmaster Nagamine. The government of the Okinwawa prefecture regulates this board. And yes Taba has a dojo in Okinawa. Takayoshi Nagamine inherited the Matsubayshi Ryu organization by "corporate" law. Any instructor on Okinawa will tell you that while Takayoshi Nagamine was Osensei's son, Taba was the senior man in the org directly below Grandmaster Nagamine. Unlike most of the ranking Okinawan elite, Taba does not push his rank. He wears a simple unadorned black belt. No one dares refer to him as master or grandmaster or any other honorific term in his presence. We call him sensei. I knew Shoshin Nagamine personally and trained with Takayoshi in the old days in Ohio. Opening a dojo or starting a karate org on Okinawa is not like here in the U.S. The government there started to realize that Karate was a valuable part of their national heritage. So there are no longer any "self appointed" Judans on the island. There is nothing to stop them going elswhere and doing that however. You will not find low ranking instructors starting a Mcdojo on Okinawa. All of that said, none of that means that you will get quality instruction just because the teacher is certified by those orgs. Yes Shogenryu is new. But the man is not. And unlike the others money is not an issue. When I was invited to join the only thing they cared about was my qualifications. Even though I was with Nagamine for over half of my life they didn't just issue me a certificate. I went through a process that took over a year before I was admitted and money never came up in the conversations. In fact, I had to offer to pay dues to help with org expenses and then was told I was trying to pay "too much". Now that might not speak to personal ability but it sure speaks to organizational morality.
_________________________
You cannot defend against that which you do not understand

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#363679 - 10/05/07 10:35 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: MattJ]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Matt:

With regret, I must disagree with sparring as being "credentials". It presupposes the person who "wins" is the teacher, no? Irrelevent to me who wins bad days, injuries happen... I need to see who looses, specifically how they respond to loosing!!!!

Winning is simple, how you loose says far more important things...IMHO!

Jeff

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#363680 - 10/05/07 11:18 AM Re: What are YOUR 'karate credentials'? [Re: Ronin1966]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Hello Matt:

With regret, I must disagree with sparring as being "credentials". It presupposes the person who "wins" is the teacher, no? Irrelevent to me who wins bad days, injuries happen... I need to see who looses, specifically how they respond to loosing!!!!

Winning is simple, how you loose says far more important things...IMHO!

Jeff




Ehhhh.....Ok. I will quote myself:

Quote:

If one is simply looking to learn fight skills, then the only credential the teacher needs is to be able to beat your a$$.




Implied was the ability to consistently win in sparring. I guess I should have been more clear. That is the most valid indicator of fighting skill, period. I am assuming that people studying fighting arts are doing so to gain skill in fighting.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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