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#363430 - 10/01/07 02:07 PM "Intercepting"
Totality Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Jeet Kune Do..."Way of the Intercepting Fist"

I love the fact that JKD uses an 'intercepting' philosophy, but what exactly are we intercepting?

I am sure it is much more than a 'fist'...

"Sorry if the topics I am posting have already been covered here I am new to the forum and have not yet had a chance to review all the threads".

Thanks,
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#363431 - 10/01/07 02:19 PM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: Totality]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ya know, Bruce didn't really want to limit intercepting to just the "fists". He said it could be the way of intercepting foot as well.

I think (and this is my opinion), that when we're talking about intercepting, we're talking about movement itself - any offensive movement and thus the opponent himself.

And while that's all good, remember that "its just a name". I mean, I doubt I have to point out that its not always possible to "intercept". Sometimes you have to flow with the go (Rickson Gracie) and take whats given.


-John

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#363432 - 10/01/07 02:33 PM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: JKogas]
Totality Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hi John,

Your right about the opponent himself, but it's more than just movement we can intercept.

On the streets (not ring or cage) there are 3 things that can be intercepted.

Any ideas??
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#363433 - 10/01/07 07:51 PM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: Totality]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Streets as opposed to the ring or cage eh? I have NO idea where you're going with this so lay it on me.

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#363434 - 10/01/07 08:35 PM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: Totality]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

Hi John,

Your right about the opponent himself, but it's more than just movement we can intercept.




I'm pretty sure that Bruce was only referring to movement, but I am interested to hear what else you are talking about.
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#363435 - 10/02/07 11:46 AM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: Totality]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I see it as different on the street I don't practice intercepting his in-coming technique as the primary method, I practice intercepting his intent, I'm saying at a certain range the slightest aggresive movement toward me. Could be a shoulder or head motion, could be his mouth positioning to spit, could be any motion I don't like.

In the ring or training its the slightest limb motion, actually contact with the limb is 2ndary if I can jam & hit him before he get off.

Everybodies interpetation of it is different, mines is keep it simple and safe for me. Now you get man I wasn't gonna hit you, and I can apologize even pick him backup, maybe. But I didn't get hit or hurt, I'm the innocent in my mind, thinking why was he so close and talking sh^%^.

Thats intercepting to Me. I don't need 3 things.


Edited by Neko456 (10/02/07 11:50 AM)
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#363436 - 10/02/07 12:06 PM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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Neko -

Certainly, interception goes beyond "technique". You can intercept practically anything from, sensing trouble and leaving to even "verbal" interception where we are able to de-escalate/diffuse a potentially violent situation just by talking to someone.

There was just no way I was going to be able to guess the "three" interceptable" things that "Totality" was laying out. I'd like to know what his ideas were.


-John

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#363437 - 10/02/07 12:35 PM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree but I was just clearing the air that 3 things are not needed, making it work is what counts and u don't need to worry about checking/deflecting/blocking nothing, it might be too late.

I'd like to hear the 3 things that can be intercepted also. But I don't think it will change my view, but it might, I'm alway open to learn.


Edited by Neko456 (10/02/07 12:38 PM)
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#363438 - 10/02/07 03:06 PM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: Neko456]
Totality Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Keeping with the spirit of simplicity, the three things I am referring too are:

1. INTENT
2. PREPERATION
3. EXECUTION

Examples on each;

"INTENT" is usually verbal or gestured ("I'm gonna kick your A@#" or sliding fingers across their throat like a knife, clenching teeth or the thousand mile glare)etc... I know his intent is to cause harm and I can intercept him there.

"PREPERATION" is getting into a fighting stance or raising their hands, making fists etc... He is preparing to do me harm and I can intercept him there.

"EXECUTION" would be the obvious, taking a swing, kick, trying to grab me, shooting in etc.... He is trying to do me harm and I can intercept that also. This would be on going interception throughout the altercation.


These are three things that can be intercepted or if you like and how I teach my students, "Three points in time in which interception is possible".

As for ring or sport fighting, there is only one thing that can be intercepted....Execution! I already know his intent before he even steps into the ring. When we face off from each other we are already prepared in fighting position waiting on the referee to say "FIGHT" so I can't intercept him there either. I can only wait till he executes his movements before I can intercept him, whether it would be ring position or actual techniques.

Thanks,
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#363439 - 10/02/07 03:16 PM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: Totality]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Okay I may still be a begginer, but on one of the videos that I have fro Paul Vunak PFS, he goes over the three things people fear. Techniques wise, he broke it down as before, durring and after.

Three points in time to attack.

Hit before your opponent. Kind of like using intuition or just your basic perception that this person will attack.

Hit during the attack. Kind of like jab for jab type of thing. Or it can be an interception with a jab or destruction with jab.

And finally after, which is dodging or evading the attack and then counter attacking.

Is this what you mean? This of course is just the physical moments of attack, as mentioned above it can mean anything to anyone, and martial artist I bet have come up with all sorts of ideas.
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#363440 - 10/02/07 03:42 PM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: TeK9]
Totality Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hi Tek9,

Before, during and after is exactly what I am talking about.

Your last 2 points in time that you mention are actually the same thing. The "execution" has been made and you are in the fight.

So all you can do is keep intercepting the "Execution".

Your second point in time is intercepting 'with' an attack.

Your third point in time demonstrates intercepting with a simultaneous attack/defend known as "Lin Sil Di Dar". I understand you said, "dodging or evading the attack and THEN counter attacking", but that's not how I train JKD. There is no then, the attack is at the exact same time as the defend.

I am sure all kinds of people have come up with all kinds of stuff, but why complicate something so simple?? Doesn't sound like JKD principles to me!

Thanks,
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#363441 - 02/13/08 01:50 AM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: TeK9]
Kr00c Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 12
i dont even know wat it means by intercepting...please explain....Thanks!

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#363442 - 02/13/08 08:51 AM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: Kr00c]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

i dont even know wat it means by intercepting...please explain....Thanks!




Did you read the thread?
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#363443 - 02/20/08 01:18 AM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: TeK9]
wingchunartist Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 8
Let me start off by qualifying my comment. I have been training in wing chun kung fu for about 8 years now. My lineage is closely linked to Bruce Lee. My Sigung (teachers' teacher)is Hawkins Cheung who grew up with, trained with, exchanged fighting concepts wtih, and was a personal friend of Bruce Lee. My Sifu (teacher), Khalif Ali, trained under Hawkins Cheung for several years. I have been practicing wing chun under the guidance of my Sifu for the past 8 years and have had the opportunity to apply my skills through sport (in tournaments) and the streets through law enforcement and personal life and death situations on the murderous streets of Baltimore. With that being said, the concept of intercepting is a product of wing chun upon which Bruce Lee expounded on. In order to understand the way of intercepting, one must first understand the three stages of a fight:

Stage One- Before Contact, ie. The Face Off
Stage Two- Contact, ie. Actually Touching The Opponent
Stage Three- Exchange, ie. Trading Attacks/Blows

In the first stage, the only thing to intercept is the emotional intent of the opponent. This is done by training the eyes to watch the opponents eyes, knees, and elbows (NOT THE SHOULDERS) and keeping a safe distance so that any attack has to be telegraphed and therefore interceptable!

During the contact stage, contact is maintained so that one can feel the intentions of the opponent and therefore neutralize/intercept it either just before initiation or just before it lands (when the opponent is fully committed to the attack).

During the exchange stage one is able to use his positioning and/or own attack to limit the opponents attacking options (such as in trapping), and coupled with maintaing contact can accurately feel and predict the opponents next move and therefore cut it off/intercept it before it is initiated or just before it lands (when your opponent is most committed to the attack) and therefore the most vulnerable to your simultaneous defence and counter/interception!

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#363444 - 02/20/08 10:32 AM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: wingchunartist]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe that is the way most Wing-chun exponents think of intercepting and they are right. You obviously have had some success in doing it that way.

But I think from my experience that way of thinking is far too complicated noting eyes, elbows or knees. Eyes can be deceiving. Elbows or knees can be used to fient or fake.

What I've found is any movement that I deem aggressive at a certain range I attack or intercept so I stay at stage 1 Intercept his intent if he survives his 1st lunge/mistake or slighest movement, I feed him until I drown him with blows. So its not about me being fast enough to counter his attack, its taking the play away from him. I am flowing with his motion upon him recieving my blows and taking what he offers as a opening. Principle 1 KISS.

One of the reason JKD was devised is because WC had weakness and was too structure and stuck in its ways. Not to say that its not a good system but like most MA system it is not a catch all. Most would agree that WC makes up less then 30% of JKD training now days.

Your way works for you, its seems to be proven but determining what part of the body moves is in my opinion for sports and entertainment, you are trying to look good by setting up a good/appropiate counter. On the street I think if he thinking defense or survival then he's not thinking offense or conquering. Defeat the mind and the body follows.

Just my O. Good topic I'm staying tuned.


Edited by Neko456 (02/20/08 10:34 AM)
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#363445 - 03/02/08 08:34 AM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: Neko456]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
forgive a karate ka for posting in thy forum.

these principals sound exactly the same to the japanese concepts of timing. sen no sen, sen, and go no sen. to hit at the moment of thought, to hit as he advances, and to counter strike. the wording is going to cause some differences, but the concepts look like there universal.

in the eyes of the law, hitting at the moment of thought, like what neko talked about, is wrong, but you end up safe so its ok. to quote bruce, i try to let "it" hit on it's own. the naming of "interception" is from an observation of how fights happen and how people exchange blows, i feel like it smore use sometimes to just spar and say after, "yeah, that felt like go no sen" training the seperate timings can get imposible if your training partner can't provide the right kind of mental preasure that is erquired to apply the higher level timings. to quote jkogas, "variable intensity"
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#363446 - 03/02/08 10:47 AM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: student_of_life]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Gut instinct tells me that people often tend to over-complicate things. They analyze really simple concepts until they are blue in the face. Lets keep it simple.

What does interception mean to you? Basically it means doing something to you before you do it to me. Thats all, nothing more or less.

IMO, you can intercept people verbally (de-escalation) and physically (throwing a jab as my opponent just begins his offensive movement and thus interrupting his rhythm).

Does it really have to be any more complicated than that? If so, do we run the risk of analysis-paralysis?

Food for thought.


-John

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#363447 - 03/02/08 08:06 PM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: JKogas]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
your preaching to the choir brother.
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#363448 - 03/03/08 08:01 AM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: Kr00c]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

i dont even know wat it means by intercepting...please explain....Thanks!




In this context just about what John said.

The meaning of intercepting anything is

To stop,
Deflect,
Interrupt the progress or intended course of ;


My thoughts about a practical scenario.

A Potential attacker has picked an argument with a person in a public place.

Intention? To see how the person re-acts then either attack the person or provoke the person to attack.

The potential attacker has his hands where they can be seen.

Any kind of verbal communication wont work from the person.

Its all on CCTV.

The person cant physically leave so considers a pre-emptive strike.
But if the person strikes the potential attacker first that makes him look like the aggressor and the person might or might not be prosecuted.

So the defender constantly places himself in the best possible position (s) that he can anticipate and intercept any strike/ attack that the potential attacker might use.

If the potential attacker strikes/attacks and it is blocked or parried or stopped (intercepted) then countered the defender should (if he has trained hard enough) win the situation.

If the potential attackers intention was to make the defender strike therefore get prosecuted , then the defender has also intercepted the potential attackers intention.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (03/03/08 08:52 AM)

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#363449 - 03/03/08 11:42 AM Re: "Intercepting" [Re: student_of_life]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
SofL I like how you explained that. Sen no sen and go no sen even Smore. I'm glad its in the text/cook books. I agree that it doesn't look lawful but if you are saying all along, "I don't want to fight, hey stop man don't move, I don't want to hit you!!" While you are sen no sening and hitting him Smore, it looks better to viewing public.

They will all say well the guy didn't want to fight he was telling the guy to stop as the other guy fell all the way to the ground, even kicked him to make sure he was alive once he fell. I like that sen no sen or go no sen.

Though I agree with Wing Chun guy detailed response but I use Jkogas/JKD idea of simplify or sen no... hit him as he thinks about hitting me. Now I won't advance on him but once in range, Sen no... man better safe then sorry.

I know it takes some of the required skill level away bc it don't let him get off good. U don't have to feel or be fast enough to block,trap & counter but darn it works and surprises them pretty good. Let him try to be faster then me. I'll practice that other stuff on the boards because boards don't ...

I intercept his thought, if I'm wrong I apologize didn't mean to deck you but you were too close to be sure, so Sin no sin, man.


Edited by Neko456 (03/03/08 12:00 PM)

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