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#363315 - 09/30/07 10:43 PM (if) I did it - Confession from the killer
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I just read this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Did_It

A pretty disturbing read.

as the attack pertains to self-defense itself...

I'll paraphrase describe the SD scenaro for sake of brevity.

a narrow walkway. a closed metal gate behind you. fairly thick foliage on both sides of the walkway. in front of you is a 6'2" ex-pro football player wearing gloves and holding a knife, just a few feet in front of you.

His 'wife' is laying on the other side of the walkway near the house door, unconscious. He's automatically (and erroneously) accusing you of being there to screw his 'wife'. He's taunting you to attack him, and you are trying to defuse the escallation. He's enraged. The blind, wild-eyed, out his mind, kind of enragement.

what can you do? you can't run behind you to the gate and open it without getting attacked in the back. you can't go around him to the house door. The foliage/growth along the path is a thick dead end.

a f'ed situation.

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#363316 - 10/01/07 08:03 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:


I'll paraphrase describe the SD scenaro for sake of brevity.

a narrow walkway. a closed metal gate behind you. fairly thick foliage on both sides of the walkway. in front of you is a 6'2" ex-pro football player wearing gloves and holding a knife, just a few feet in front of you.

His 'wife' is laying on the other side of the walkway near the house door, unconscious. He's automatically (and erroneously) accusing you of being there to screw his 'wife'. He's taunting you to attack him, and you are trying to defuse the escallation. He's enraged. The blind, wild-eyed, out his mind, kind of enragement.

what can you do? you can't run behind you to the gate and open it without getting attacked in the back. you can't go around him to the house door. The foliage/growth along the path is a thick dead end.

a f'ed situation.




Have I got a gun? If not, then I back up to the gate and see if this triggers increased aggression, or if he holds his position taunting me into violence. If he comes with me and I know for sure I cant get that gate open, then its time to deal with the physical reality of a knife attack. I resign myself to damage to my hands and attempt to take control of the blade (or at least the hand controlling it) and hope I can overpower the guy.
Chances are, I am going to die, but then, everybody does.
Been as specific as I can there Ed
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#363317 - 10/01/07 08:32 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: Cord]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
"What can you do?"

Die well.

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#363318 - 10/01/07 09:00 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I back up to the gate and see if this triggers increased aggression, or if he holds his position taunting me into violence. If he comes with me and I know for sure I cant get that gate open, then its time to deal with the physical reality of a knife attack. I resign myself to damage to my hands and attempt to take control of the blade (or at least the hand controlling it) and hope I can overpower the guy.




Excellent post, Cord. Not sure what else you could do in that situation. Once you have established that he means you harm, then you have no choice but to engage, since there is no escape. Unless sh1tting myself counts as "action".
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#363319 - 10/01/07 03:13 PM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: MattJ]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Scream like a little girl with her panties on fire. Then after that, what Cord said. I might try to use my belt to trap his arm if I had a chance to take it off. My new Mande Muda Silat instructor tied me up with a sarong the other day and choked me out with it. Other than that, my first answer and yeah, what Cord said.

Scottie


Edited by RazorFoot (10/01/07 03:42 PM)
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#363320 - 10/01/07 09:09 PM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: RazorFoot]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
don't get me wrong Scotty, I have a sense of humor...but this is one of those rare subjects that I fail to find anything funny about.

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#363321 - 10/01/07 11:11 PM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

A pretty disturbing read.




Indeed. I wonder if he'll get off from the robbery charges/ kidnapping, etc???

Anywhoo.... If I was faced with that situation I would play it defensively. I would not try to stay and fight. I would try to get past him with as little harm to myself as possible. I'm sure I'd get cut or slashed, but I would try and protect my vital area's as much as possible. Hopefully, my training would help me survive.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#363322 - 10/02/07 06:56 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Cord is right on.

Sure you might die, but you'll die fighting, right? Something in that adrenaline dump might just save your ass if you've trained to deal with a frenzied knife attack. Obviously the key there is making sure that your partners are attacking you like a psycho when you're doing counter knife.

Of course even then its a crapshoot, but so is life. Chance favors the prepared mind.


-John

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#363323 - 10/02/07 08:04 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: Ed_Morris]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Quote:

don't get me wrong Scotty, I have a sense of humor...but this is one of those rare subjects that I fail to find anything funny about.




You're right. It isn't funny. The whole situation is ludicrous. How someone who everyone knows is a cold blooded killer can get off, travel and enjoy himself right after committing a double murder while the children of the family he brutalized are still mourning, and then write a book about how he actually committed the murders as if it were a recipe book?

Yeah, you're right, there is little funny about it but we all respond to things in different ways. My coping system is to make things lighter than they are so I can deal with the harsh realities that happen. Sorry if you don't approve but the reality is, we do not all react to things the same way. I think he should be dealt with as harshly as befits the crimes he has committed but faced with the situation as depicted here, fear would be my first response. Sorry if you feel I phrased it in an inappropriate manner but that is how I deal with fear or stress. I down play it so I can come to grips with it and deal with it. Always have, always will.

Scottie
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#363324 - 10/02/07 12:49 PM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: RazorFoot]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
By the way all, my last post was not an attack on Ed or a retaliation, simply an explanation as to why my initial post stated what it did. I simply wanted all to understand that by no means was I making light of the situation. Also Ed, I understand your feelings on the matter and you have a right to them. We simply deal with things differently and that is okay.

I hope no one misunderstood my meaning. Rereading my post, I see how some one could have.

Scottie
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#363325 - 10/02/07 01:36 PM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: RazorFoot]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
I deal with things in similar manner Scottie.

That would be a hard situtation to deal with. Mainly because I think anthing you do would provoke him. I say that because it is obvious that he has serious rage issues.
_________________________
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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#363326 - 10/02/07 04:16 PM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: JasonM]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
If it were me then & there, I'd probably suffer the same fate but I'll play along.

It's a good time to utilize an improvised weapon - belt comes to mind because I always wear one. Go on the offensive by either snapping the belt or try to hit him w/ the buckle. I know it's not going to injure him but hopefully I have the forethought to take-out his arthritic knees & stay away from/control the blade.

All this time I'll be screaming my head off "Fire,fire..."

In reality, I'm rarely w/o my SOG Flash II (quick-open 3 1/4" lockblade) so hopefully I'd have more of a fighting chance.

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#363327 - 10/05/07 01:03 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: hedkikr]
CatnPhx Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/05
Posts: 136
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Well, we probably won't be outrunning the "Juice" so I would probably back out slowly (just like I would a growling dog) and look for an improvished weapon (i.e. rock) to help in the fight. After that, only time will tell and you hope to live.

My best bet would be to accept some wounds as I go for his throat. Not a situation anybody wants to be in ... definitely a nightmare.

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#363328 - 10/10/07 08:40 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: CatnPhx]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
You mention the only additional thing that went through my mind when I read Cord's an Scott's posts. And it's that I would attempt as hard as I could to inflict a permanent, serious and visible injury to the attacker. In my case, though, I'd go for his eyes with the intent to blind at least one. In addition to the obvious advantages if I have the crazy luck to pull it off without getting killed or maimed in the process, if I'm going to go down, "while he has dinner, I'll have a sandwich". Besides, try telling the cops you had nothing to do with any kind of violence when your eye is hanging on your cheek from it's optical nerve!
BTW, O.J.'s cynical arrogance is breathtaking, isn't it???!!!
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#363329 - 10/10/07 01:59 PM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: RazorFoot]
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Ok in the origonal post it said "Fairly thick foelage on both sides of the walkway"

I would try to use the foleage as a barrier or means of escape, it would at least make it harder for him to attack me, and may just even the odds as we would both be fighting in/through the foleage.

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#363330 - 10/12/07 08:12 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: ChangLab]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Quote:

Ok in the origonal post it said "Fairly thick foelage on both sides of the walkway"

I would try to use the foleage as a barrier or means of escape, it would at least make it harder for him to attack me, and may just even the odds as we would both be fighting in/through the foleage.




If he is referring to thick, dense, boxwood hedges, there is no going through them. As a child, I used to try to go through them while playing with my siblings and it is dam near impossible because of how thickly branched they are. If they are 6 to 8 feet tall, you are screwed. Better luck going over than through them.

Scottie
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#363331 - 11/26/07 10:12 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: RazorFoot]
TheWolf Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2
Read my story

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#363332 - 11/26/07 11:31 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: TheWolf]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lorton, VA
Quote:

Read my story




No.
_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#363333 - 11/26/07 03:32 PM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: Zombie Zero]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
My best friend Joes dad was like the 4th squad car down in the attempt to chase him down. Anyway, I' keep an eye on him, back away slowly, all the while looking for potential weapons; I.E. large rocks, a stick, gravel to blind him, mud to blind him, the whole belt deal, or if I'm wearing a very thick jacket I'd wrap it aorund one arm tightly and use it as a sort of shield agaisnt the knife which could at least provide a few slashes worth of protection I'd think. Then attack as aggressively as possible. And probably still die.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#363334 - 11/26/07 08:26 PM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: Stormdragon]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

if I'm wearing a very thick jacket I'd wrap it aorund one arm tightly and use it as a sort of shield agaisnt the knife which could at least provide a few slashes worth of protection I'd think. Then attack as aggressively as possible. And probably still die.




That's a good basic plan, but the devil's in the details... If you can prevent getting cut in the first place, that's the best plan, but depending on how much maneuvering room you have, your plan may come to the front. The second part of that is to know where to go WHILE YOU'RE DEFENDING... strikes to the eyes, throat, groin, and especially the knees... if you have a clean shot at their chin with a palm heel strike, drive their head straight up and lift them off the ground if you can.

In Aikido, we have one technique, Gokyo, that is specifically designed to control a knife attack, and if you're adept at using it, it would be an option as well... but be sure you do as much damage after you redirect the knife as you can... because he's not going to stop. Break elbows, knees, or his neck. My jujutsu training would have me heading for whatever "soft parts" were exposed, and breaking the most accessible joints.

The mindset has to be "kill him... and do it now... " not, "how am I going to defend myself?" Chances are you're going to get cut or killed... so you have to change the equation.

If it had been me in that walkway, he would have found out he'd brought a knife to a gunfight... and he wouldn't be taunting the U.S. justice system with his book about "IF I did it..." The headlines would have read "Football superstar killed by old man with bad hip..."

... "a .40 caliber hole in the center of his chest will obscure the ability of (you know who) to claim self defense in his latest attempt at mahem...".

Remember what the one armed sheriff's deputy said in "Unforgiven".... "I don't want to get killed for a lack of shootin' back..."

That's what concealed carry permits are for...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#363335 - 11/27/07 02:49 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: wristtwister]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
That makes sense, my idea was admittedly incomplete. I didn't even THINK about the mindset thing being aggressive vs. defensive as with the jacket.
I guess just train that tactic aggressively like everything else.
It seems like traditional MA like Aikido seem to train against nothing but single, or maybe double, and fairly slpw knife attacks. How do the same techniques used agaisnt those transfer to the street where attacks are faster, shorter, more violent and repeated? Aren't most of the traditional tactics not designed for that stuff?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#363336 - 11/27/07 06:26 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: Stormdragon]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Back when Toyoda was alive, we used live blades during randori, and while the attacks were somewhat muted in intensity, it was still very telling about whether or not you could depend on your gokyo and irimi techniques to defend yourself against knife attacks. That being said, it wasn't a beginner's exercise ... it was for people with experience in both Aikido and randori, because you don't want to throw your ukes onto their knives or get cut in the process of doing your technique... so the operative word is "CAREFULLY" done randori...

It absolutely raises the level of training to "nearly real", and makes your insurance people go crazy. We had a few people get nicked up during training, but nothing serious, but there's always the possibility of an accident... so it isn't for the faint of heart or the newbies to be trying. They make wooden and rubber knives to be used for that, but believe me... the game changes when the blade is "live"...

Technique, movement, and mental coordination with your opponents has to be perfect. Otherwise... it gets bloody.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#363337 - 11/27/07 08:00 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: wristtwister]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
For the dan grades in Kempo we're required to be able to do all the knife stuff with a live blade. Unfortunately when one of the guys was taking is 2nd Dan he didn't quite get out the way of blade and know has what he calls his "worm" which is a scar that goes across his stomach. The group who we use for the dan grades banned us from using live blades after that...so my Dad makes the guys do it with live blades in the dojo instead. A real blade does change the game completely!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#363338 - 11/27/07 08:00 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: wristtwister]
Blackrainbow Offline
Dragon

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 220
Loc: Brandon Fl.USA


The mindset has to be "kill him... and do it now... " not, "how am I going to defend myself?" Chances are you're going to get cut or killed... so you have to change the equation.


This is the first practical thing that you learn in military basic training. Your most powerful weapon is between your ears. The minute you resign yourself to death you will surely die. People with no training at all survive these situations purely because they just refuse to surrender. After four major surgeries and at age 56 I am still in pretty good shape. But I am also no fool. Hechler and Koch---- don't leave home without it. Oh, and drill, drill, drill.
_________________________
You cannot defend against that which you do not understand

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#363339 - 11/30/07 11:51 PM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: Blackrainbow]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
One of the biggest weaknesses in martial arts training is the propensity to only train "self defense" scenarios, when if you're actually faced with one of them, the best solution is to attack. I laugh out loud when people tell me that "Aikido is a passive art"... cuz I'll knock your arse into the next dimension when I'm playing.... I want it to be dangerous to attack me... not "dangerous if you're attacking"...in the training sense of the words.

Let me put it in perspective...
If we're training, I'm going to be very careful to train you well. I will make it as real as possible, while still not sending you to the emergency room unnecessarily. You might get hurt some... bangs, bruises... sprains or contusions where you get hit... but still, all under control and done without malice.

If I'm using what I know in self defense...
First of all, I don't care if I hurt you... a lot and very badly. I don't care if you end up blind, crippled, or dead. If I'm defending myself or someone else, and you have a weapon, hopefully, I'll be armed, and make it simple... if not, I will find whatever I can to use and deliver the most paralyzing, injuring, and crippling damage to you that I can work out in the course of our fight. I won't care what you look like when we're through, or how your life is affected... I will be defending my life, or someone else's... and what happens to you doesn't matter. You're the threat.

I won't care what your lawyer thinks... or what your family thinks... or how well liked you were, or what a big man you were in the community... the immediate problem is that you're a threat, and in dealing with you, you're throwing out all that miscellaneous information and making the points moot. I WILL be trying my dead-level best to have you taking a dirt-nap when we're done.

Mindset... we don't need no stinkin' mindset...

Rambo is alive and well...

We'll have lemonade... after....

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#363340 - 12/01/07 01:20 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: wristtwister]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I think that about says it all. I think scenario training and training the right mindset, working tecniques all the time (the specifics I guess you could call it), etc., but the main concern is an effective attack that is made quickly, without hesitation. CONTROLLED AGGRESSION. Just do it and do it NOW. And then get the hell out of there. All the other factors are based around that. Do I about have it?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#363341 - 12/01/07 07:34 AM Re: (if) I did it - Confession from the killer [Re: Stormdragon]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
That's about it, except for the warning that you don't use compassion once your trigger is pulled... leave it all on the table, and don't stop until your attacker does... meaning that he isn't moving.

People train "excape" scenarios all the time, but consider the circumstance of this one... a pro football running back who's enraged and wants you dead... you aren't going to outrun him, he's going to be in better shape (most likely), and he has a weapon. Mercy will get you killed.

Break something... gouge out an eye... hit anything that gets close enough... and don't stop until he's either knocked out or dead. In this scenario, escape is not an option... he will run you down, he's armed, and he has the means and desire to kill you.

Oh yeah... and you have about two-tenths of a second to make that decision... before he decides to come after you with the knife... Other than that, take your time...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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