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#363059 - 02/12/08 03:08 PM Re: Shiatsu and TCM [Re: Paulol]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I agree with Paulol 100%.

Even the angles of insertion for acupuncture needles are different from the angles of attack.

The healings that we are taught have value because they teach a person how to project energy, or whatever your politically correct jargon is, into the points, kind of like a correctly delivered punch penetrates. However, it isn't as involved as learning a whole healing art. If I want to study martial arts, I want martial arts. It is like if I want to know how to tell time, I don't want someone to tell me how to make a watch.
_________________________
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#363060 - 02/12/08 04:18 PM Re: Shiatsu and TCM [Re: underdog]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
I didn;t say there was no difference. What I said was learn the points via the healing arts then learn how to attack them.

Most of the "pressure point" teachers in the USA are phonies. You can learn more just by buying a shiatsu book.

By studying a healing art you will not only be more likely to get reliable training, you will have a better overall understanding if what you are doing.

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#363061 - 02/13/08 12:26 PM Re: Shiatsu and TCM [Re: JAMJTX]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
One more thing:
Learning these points through a healing art is also a safer and much more responsible way to to do it.

When you study Shiatsu and other healing arts you gain much more insite into what's actually happening to the body. You will also learn what types of "patients" to NOT use these techniques on.

No one that I know of teaching these "pressure point" is telling people "you should never do this to someone with high blood pressure", etc. Most of them have no real idea of what they are doing. They just looked at pictures and are telling thier students "poke here to knock him out". This is dangerous and irresponsible. Not to mention you don't need to pay them for this. Just go to Borders and buy the same book they did.

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#363062 - 02/13/08 03:52 PM Re: Shiatsu and TCM [Re: JAMJTX]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:

I didn;t say there was no difference. What I said was learn the points via the healing arts then learn how to attack them.

Most of the "pressure point" teachers in the USA are phonies. You can learn more just by buying a shiatsu book.

By studying a healing art you will not only be more likely to get reliable training, you will have a better overall understanding if what you are doing.




on this post and your post straight afterwards, this is another misconception.

if i am hitting someone with pressure points to stop them attacking me, and they with the intent to do serious damage to me. then i'm not really worried about the after effects to them.

if you do train pp's like this for self defence then you are creating a lot of needless thought prior to you effecting your defence.

in the group i work with we work on the "just hit here" theory. which lets us open to striking which ever point presents itself in the course of our defence. once it is practical to do so. which covers the idea that we finish a fight as soon as we can either with force or intelligent retreat.

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#363063 - 02/13/08 04:18 PM Re: Shiatsu and TCM [Re: Paulol]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
The law says that you do need to worry about the after effect. If you kill someone, ignorance of the workings of the techniques that you used is probably not a valid defense.

There are a lot of people in jail who said things like "I didn't mean to kill him". If you are faced with deadly force then inurious or deadly force has been justified.

As stated earlier, the approach to studying these points from a healing aspect just makes a lot more sense.

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#363064 - 02/13/08 05:29 PM Re: Shiatsu and TCM [Re: JAMJTX]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:

The law says that you do need to worry about the after effect. If you kill someone, ignorance of the workings of the techniques that you used is probably not a valid defense.

There are a lot of people in jail who said things like "I didn't mean to kill him". If you are faced with deadly force then inurious or deadly force has been justified.

As stated earlier, the approach to studying these points from a healing aspect just makes a lot more sense.




so if i end up knocking a person out with punches and kicks then i must first go to college to be an expert on treating trauma?

hmmm makes sense!

i know what physical responce a person will give when i strike certain points and i use that knowledge to effect my defence.

knowing which point will make him release his bladder will not help me defend myself.

in fact i'd love to be brought up in court for killing a person with pressure points! it would be some case and cause a few things to be brought out in the open.

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#363065 - 02/14/08 08:31 AM Re: Shiatsu and TCM [Re: Paulol]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Ed Lake, I believe, not 100% sure, and Steve Stewart, are two Kyusho people who command my respect. Both are educated in Acupuncture. Gavin King here studies shiatsu. Steve Stewart is actually Dr. Stewart now. I have no problem acknowledging that a knowledge of healing compliments the hurting aspect. Actually, in the program I am in, I am taught healing techniques. The logic is that healing will help teach me to fight better.

However, since at this point in life, learning to heal with acupuncture, or other art, is not going to become my life's work, I just want to concentrate on my Kyusho program and on developing my Kenpo based style (American-Te). With unlimited time and starting out early in life to master the martial arts, one would have the time. I have no problem conceeding that this slower extended more comprehensive approach would bring great results. It just isn't the best path for everyone. Pleased for you that you can pursue your studies in this way.

I don't know anyone in the "hit here" routine without attendance to the effects on the body. If such exist, and you say they do, I hope I don't meet them as their uke at a conference. I know that our system, developed by Evan Pantazi, attends to the medical quite a bit. There is an on-going medical study headed up by Dr. Sergio Espejo, on the effects of Kyusho on the body. Once a year, he invites lay students down to see some of the testing. I went a couple of years ago. I missed it this year. When their research is complete, they will publish what they have found. This is a fairly broad based endeavor. When they publish, it will truly be the book to own. It will be scientifically, reasearch based, peer reviewed study with no myths or tradition based claims without data to back it up.

In our program, we are taught to regard the effects on a perpetrator and cautioned about the legal ramifications of what damage you do. It has careful emphasis. Still, I think it is each person's responsibility to know the self defense laws in his/her own state, especially if you are teaching self defense. It makes a difference, in Massachusetts, for example, where I live, whether you are attacked by an uninvited person in your own home, or whether the person was invited in, or whether you are out on the street and the perpetrator is a stranger. However, I think this has less to do specifically with Kyusho as it does to ANY self defense, be it empty handed martial arts, gun arts, fighting back with whatever weaponable item you can reach in your living room, whatever.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#363066 - 02/14/08 09:25 AM Re: Shiatsu and TCM [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
You don't need to study a healing art in order to be able hit the body or study a martial art. The two are deeply connected but not prerequisites of each other. Although the most effective martial artists I've ever meet have also studied healing arts.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#363067 - 02/14/08 09:45 AM Re: Shiatsu and TCM [Re: Gavin]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
to heal one must know what not to do,
to harm one knows what he can do that won't heal.
_________________________
Livestrong Johnnyboxcutter!!

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#363068 - 02/14/08 09:54 AM Re: Shiatsu and TCM [Re: Vennificus]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Very idealistic mate. I've worked with plenty of people who were capable of doing a hell a lot of damage to you and wouldn't even know how to administer CPR if their life depended on it. Likewise I've met Acupuncturists, Shiatsu practitioners and Reiki people who can't even comprehend the mindset required to knock someone out let alone actually do it. As I hinted the two are not prerequisites of each other.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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