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#362891 - 10/02/07 04:05 PM Re: Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment [Re: harlan]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
MrMoyer,

I agree with your follow-on post. There is a point where, "a reasonable and prudent person...". I was commenting reference your statement.

I have seen L.E.O. where training is put on the back burner to save money, or have officers watch a video for high liability areas (it's terrible)..

As far as what the officer did or didn't do and what he was or wasn't thinking: Due process is for everyone, not just certain people. If the suspect's civil rights were violated then, as I said, the officer should face the consequences. But he should be afforded due process just like everyone else.

Harlan,
I have to agree with you. I have fought for a height weight requirement at my L.E.O. for awhile and keep getting the same old tired answer, "if we make certain physical standards mandatory, then we have to pay the officers to workout, or provide them with a place to workout...", put quite simply, they don't want to spend the money.

Again lack of funds for proper training (which btw leads to more lawsuits)...

Kel
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Remembering 3655K

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#362892 - 10/03/07 03:33 AM Re: Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment [Re: hunterkell]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Kel,

From the tone of your posts, it appears you have a vested interest in LEO. Too bad if I touched a raw nerve. All I saw, was Mr Tubby administering repeated shocks, beyond the point where it was necessary.

The last straw for me was when he continued to shock her causing her to collapse and hit her head on the rear side of the car. Was that absolutely necessary?

At no point was any attempt made to physically restrain the woman. Nor was there any attempt to continue to issue voice commands.

The device is dangerous, whether it be in the hands of a child, or someone trained in its use. I expected far more judicious use of the device from someone who supposedly would have had training in its use. Surely, with a 50,000v jolt you'd think she would be compliant enough to physically restrain. But seven times? Come on... you think that might be a little overkill?

Same goes for capsicum spray. I have seen our police here liberally use it beyond the point of necessity. The subject in question was not resisting arrest, yet, the police still sprayed him. And even as the subject went down holding his eyes, and was STILL obviously not resisting arrest, the police officer in question continued to administer the spray, before proceeding to manhandle the subject.

If the general public can visually discern the extent to which the use of such devices goes beyond the point of being appropriate, why can't the police in question? Why can't you?

I don't need a crystal ball or the ability to read minds to see that it's just another boy with a toy.

Perhaps the problem is not with me, but in addressing how LEOs present themselves and uphold their duties, especially in the eyes of the public.

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#362893 - 10/03/07 09:19 AM Re: Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment [Re: eyrie]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Eyrie,

Please show in any of my posts where I have stood up for or displayed, "a vested interest" in the affairs of this officer (or any other officer for that matter).

I have simply said that he deserves the same due process that all subjects (and suspects) are gauranteed by the US Constitution.

I have neither defended or excused his behavior...

I AM a police officer and I defend the rights of all for due process, I have never trampled on a suspect's civil rights, if anything, I make sure the cases that I make are without reproach, above and beyond, that which I am required to do. I think everyone should be afforded the same opportunity.

But making a decision of guilt OR innocence by watching a video is about as ignorant as deciding someone's guilt or innocence of a crime by the color of their skin.

Let's be fair to everyone, not just who we (collectively) think we should be fair to.

If he is guilty of a transgression of policy or a crime then I am sure the investigation will bring it out and he will be punished.

If he is innocent, or there are other factors, then I am sure that will be brought out also.

Kel

I submit your bias is showing...
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

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#362894 - 10/03/07 02:35 PM Re: Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment [Re: hunterkell]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
There really isn't enough of the video being shown to see what was really going on, typical of the media. We don't know what lead up to the officer tasering her. From the video, which was taken out of context, it would appear he was out of line and using excessive force but to what extent was she resisting prior to what we see in the clip? Was she fighting the officer as he tried to restrain her? How many opportunities did she have to comply? Did she continue to resist after the initial tasering showing a pattern of intentional resistance?
I think she was drunk, belligerent and intentionally resisting. It was evident that she was continuing to resist from her actions in the back seat. The claim "i was in fear for my life" doesn't fly with me one bit. She is being prompted by her lawyer and is most likely trying to milk some money out of this.
The officer on the other hand appeared, from the video clip, to be taking the "easy" way out by tasering her vise trying to restrain her. Looked like he just didn't want to get his hands dirty or put out any effort. Kind of the "why fight them when i have a nifty little taser" mentality. The line about the taser "miss firing" is BS. If that was the case then stop following her with it and pull the electrodes. Too often we have officers going over board and tasering someone at the drop of a hat and continuing to shock them until the person passes out or complies. At no point are they taking into consideration the how difficult it is for a person to lay down and follow commands when they are being electrocuted. My biggest problem with this guy is how out of shape he is, which is most likely a big reason he prefers to taser people instead of using restraint techniques, if that was the case here. I still don't understand why law enforcement groups and the military continue to allow people to continue this type of work in such poor physical condition.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#362895 - 10/03/07 03:19 PM Re: Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment [Re: laf7773]
Helen2005 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 77
Loc: Arkansas
The media is notorious for not giving us the whole story, so why would this incident be any different? Until the whole story comes out, meaning we get to hear the police officers side, I will not decide whether it was too extreme or not. For all we know, this woman may have threatened the police officer or attacked him in some way. The video just doesn't show enough. Like hunterkell said, the truth will come out soon enough, or it will be swept under the carpet and never heard about again (another thing the media is notorious for).
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#362896 - 10/04/07 10:04 AM Re: Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment [Re: Helen2005]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
I doubt if the officer will speak on this matter. I don't recall many instances when the officers does speak out. Or maybe the reason is beause the suite is pending, dunno.

Here is the woman's version of the story.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/26/tasered.woman/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
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#362897 - 10/04/07 10:09 AM Re: Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment [Re: JasonM]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Officers are advised by counsel not to speak out. Anything an officer says can not only used againts them in a court of law, but also twisted and turned by the media or by others.

K
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#362898 - 10/04/07 07:41 PM Re: Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment [Re: hunterkell]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Kell,

Quote:

I have simply said that he deserves the same due process that all subjects (and suspects) are gauranteed by the US Constitution.


No argument there... as long as due process is fair and above board... I'm far more cynical in my old age, and don't mind being proved wrong.

Quote:

I have neither defended or excused his behavior...
I AM a police officer and I defend the rights of all for due process, I have never trampled on a suspect's civil rights, if anything, I make sure the cases that I make are without reproach, above and beyond, that which I am required to do. I think everyone should be afforded the same opportunity.



Good for you.

Quote:

But making a decision of guilt OR innocence by watching a video is about as ignorant as deciding someone's guilt or innocence of a crime by the color of their skin.


My observation of what went down in the video segment is simply that - an observation. I'm sure there were a few opportunities where the officer involved could have done something differently, but he didn't. I'm not saying anybody is guilty or innocent. Police are people too. However, their place and position in society requires them to maintain at least slightly higher ethical standards than the average citizen.

Image, being the subjective thing that it is, is far too important for people in positions of authority and power, to ignore. Wouldn't you agree?

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#362899 - 10/05/07 03:55 PM Re: Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment [Re: eyrie]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Actually, I do disagree.

Image IS a subjective thing and that means it tends to change as the public interprets (or re interprets it). Therefore, I am not concerned w/what the public or anyone else believes things to be.

For instance, I see on blogs in my city where there are citizens criticizing police officers for parking under a certain tree during the day. Their belief is the officer is parking there to avoid the heat (it has been well over 98 degrees day in and day out lately).

Therefore, their image of that police officer is one that he is lazy or does not wish to get out in the heat and work...

Guess what? I am that officer and that supposition on the blogs are wrong.

Here is the true story:

My PD is short by 10 officers. Therefore, we are running calls from beginning of shift to the end. When we are not running calls, we are typing reports in our vehicles using our vehicle computers...my computer's screen does not work properly and is exceedingly dim, therefore I HAVE to sit under a large tree to use the shade to block out the sun so I can type reports.

You see, image is not TRUTH or REALITY...it is a way for people to explain to themselves what they see (or think they see)...

Image is for people that are of weak character or politicians.

I care not for image; not as long as I satisfy my own personal sense of duty and responsiblity.

I have other examples that would prob be more telling, but I have to go write more reports (under that tree)...



Kel
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#362900 - 10/05/07 07:46 PM Re: Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment [Re: hunterkell]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Image is also a reflection of how one behaves and conducts themselves. How you behave and present yourself IS your image.

And like the ad says "Image IS Everything"... from parents, children, teachers, priests, sport coaches, martial artists, business people - image is everything.

Therefore, the image you project is important in how people perceive you. However, if you don't care what people think of you, then whatever image you project is immaterial.

But that doesn't mean that certain behaviors should be condoned or acceptable to others, simply because you don't care what they think.

While image may be subjective and there's no pleasing everyone, what people think should not matter if one does the "right" thing.

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