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#361714 - 09/19/07 01:40 PM Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos
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#361715 - 09/19/07 06:53 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Wow, Matt, it's amazing how different the techniques He used back then are from what we are taught today. I recognized most of what he did though.

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#361716 - 09/24/07 01:20 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
Neko456 Offline
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What those videos show is Master Ed Parker development and his system in the infant stage. As he matured his showmanship and professionalism was horned. In the video with the late actor he corrected him without embarassing him or hurting him, showing why and how he became so popular with the Hollywood set.

I like looking at the old vs. past-present, it shows how far they have come and where he began. You can definitely see Prof. Chows and Prof. Emperado's in his system. Personally I don't see a lot of Master's Mitose movement in Parkers system.

Parker was ahead of his time and true Martial art Pioneer.
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#361717 - 09/24/07 03:08 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Neko456]
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Quote:

You can definitely see Prof. Chows and Prof. Emperado's in his system. Personally I don't see a lot of Master's Mitose movement in Parkers system.




Interesting comment. I certainly agree with you about the Chow influence - Parker openly copied much of Chow's style of movement. Mitose? Good question. Does anyone have any video of Mitose actually doing anything? I've never seen any, and wouldn't be able to make a comparison between him and Parker.
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#361718 - 09/24/07 03:34 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
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What I never understood was why nearly every joint strike was considered a "bone-breaker". Fact is that it takes ALOT of force to break a bone/joint. I think this assumption betrays a lack of knowledge of anatomy & physics.

I grant you that EP was fast but I never saw any impact in the strikes. BTW, his fronk kick looks like a beginner's. Could EP hurt you? Probably, but it looks more flash than function. Especially when each series of techniques ends w/ EP backing away in stance, aparently ready for the opponent to get up to get another azz-whoopin'.

Not meaning to purposely PO any AKK followers but I considered making this comment for a couple of days.

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#361719 - 09/24/07 05:01 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: hedkikr]
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Quote:

What I never understood was why nearly every joint strike was considered a "bone-breaker". Fact is that it takes ALOT of force to break a bone/joint. I think this assumption betrays a lack of knowledge of anatomy & physics.




So.....other styles do not consider joint strikes to be "bone breakers"? Isn't that what they are supposed to do? You must be kidding about about Ed Parker not understanding physics, right?

*MattJ had his elbow broken in class by a "bone breaking joint strike", BTW.

Quote:

I grant you that EP was fast but I never saw any impact in the strikes.




Again, you are kidding, right? Have you ever been hit by him? Talk to anyone that went to one of his seminars.

Quote:

BTW, his fronk kick looks like a beginner's.




While he was no Hee Il Cho, I thought he could kick OK for a big guy (back in the day). Not sure what you were expecting - AKK is not TKD.

Quote:

but it looks more flash than function. Especially when each series of techniques ends w/ EP backing away in stance, aparently ready for the opponent to get up to get another azz-whoopin'.




Yes, I thought the "cross over and cover-out" on every technique (taught that way in class, BTW), was silly, too.
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#361720 - 09/24/07 05:24 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
Neko456 Offline
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Ed Kicks have the snap (thats hard to catch) in them that self defense kick need in them, most Kenpo guys don't kick high but the do kick hard and they don't waste motion in between hand delievery. The kicks work smoothly into their continued hand strike not wasting a lot time re-cocking. Now some that cross trained can kick pretty good, but their roots is the streets. As he fine tuned his system the high knee cocks fade to low knee for smoother hand transistions.

Ed and most martial arts instructor probably referred to the technique as bone breakers because thats how it was explained to them, back then you didn't questioned you just did. These techniques could break your arm but really in a encounter wheather it broke the arm, magiled it or just torn the ligaments it doesn't matter he can't use it or use it like he use to its a damaged limb. Might as well be broke these guys were fighters not doctors.

Not may people have seen Master Mitose performing his system. But look at Profs. Chows pupils, Ed Parkers students, and down the line you see them in their students.

The same can be said of Mitose system in the Tracy group and his Head pupil Bruce something, the tall heavyset guy. Forgive Master Bruce, I'm at work and I gotten a Brain freeze that happens when you get older, multi-tasking starts to fade.


Edited by Neko456 (09/24/07 05:28 PM)
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#361721 - 09/24/07 05:47 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Neko456]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Matt, don't forget that the purpose of the cross-out is to be prepared. You never know, he might have had a buddy who just saw the fight.

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#361722 - 09/25/07 01:47 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
hedkikr Offline
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I'm familiar w/ impact & whenever I see an AKK demo, I see a lot of fast & fancy techniques w/ the assumption that each strike is a crippler.

I've trained w/ AKK guys who claimed the little punches & kicks were more devastating than they look only because they didn't want to hurt me.

I watched that vintage film actually hoping to see something different but sadly enough I didn't.

...and no, I was never hit by EP. But I was hit by Lionel Marinus & Chris Thompson (holding an impact pad) that shook my fillings. That was impact!

BTW, I don't expect anyone to know those 2 gents...

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#361723 - 09/25/07 05:59 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: hedkikr]
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Quote:

I'm familiar w/ impact & whenever I see an AKK demo, I see a lot of fast & fancy techniques w/ the assumption that each strike is a crippler.




Ed......woof.

The only one making that assumption is you. Anyone who has studied AKK for any length of time is familiar with the concept of "major" (damaging/KO) strikes and "minor" (set-up or distraction) strikes. This is not a secret, and Mr Parker wrote about this in his books.

Quote:

I've trained w/ AKK guys who claimed the little punches & kicks were more devastating than they look only because they didn't want to hurt me.




Then you haven't trained with any good AKK people. No one with any experience in the art is going to make that claim, becasue it's not true. Kenpo is more closely related to boxing in the sense that it is a multi-strike, combination style that does NOT rely on one-punch-KO power strikes. This is not a flaw of the system - it was how it was designed from the beginning. Whether you disagree with that philosophy or not.
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#361724 - 09/25/07 08:46 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
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Having trained in AKK myself for sometime, I can tell you personally the strikes are powerful. They build upon the previous strike.

I have always looked at it like pounding a nail in a board. Each strike with the hammer is powerful but you don't rely on the one strike to put the nail through the board. Each strike is measured, to the same point, and builds on the previous impact. If everything goes as planned, you get the desired result. If you miss and the nail bends, you can still pound it into the wood with more strikes.

Pretty simple but logical philosophy. Don't depend on one strike to get the job done, especially when the target is resisting and moving.

Had my arm seriously hyper extended several times by people executing these "soft" strikes without realizing how much power they had in them. Don't assume that working out with a few stylists defines an art, especially if they are crap.

Butterfly has commented on some poor Ashihara videos that surfaced on here once or twice and going by those videos, I would not have had an interest in the style but after training with him personally (a great Ashihara stylist and technician) I would train in Ashihara at his dojo in a heartbeat if I could.

Anybody who doesn't train like they should can make the best art look like crap. To judge a style, find someone proficient, take a seminar or even a private lesson to truly understand the concepts and execution before attempting to broadcast to the world ideas that may not be completely based in fact.

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#361725 - 09/25/07 11:49 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: RazorFoot]
hedkikr Offline
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I actually viewed that film clip w/ high hopes. When I lived in Pasadena, I spent a month @ Frank Trejo's place (Parker's original headquarters, I believe). Frank is a strong, quick guy but I saw the flurries as just that.

I hadn't been introduced to the idea of shock/impact until a few years ago & I never bought the "one-punch kill" concept because I'd been involved in too many real altercations (including inmates who don't give a $h!t). But something was missing...hmmm.

Years later, I was introduced to Steve Spry (I was invited to referee @ the L.B. Internationals) @ his original school on Beach Bvd. - next to the "gentleman's club". I was invited to a "cultural exchange" & came away disappointed despite their congeniality. When his videos started poping up on the local community access channels @ night, they became my late-night amusement (the techniques, & his hair).

OK, beyond a few mall demos & the like, I admit my exposure is limited so maybe my comments are BS...so be it. I can only compare what I know w/ what I know.

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#361726 - 09/25/07 12:01 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: hedkikr]
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Quote:

When I lived in Pasadena, I spent a month @ Frank Trejo's place (Parker's original headquarters, I believe). Frank is a strong, quick guy but I saw the flurries as just that.




Huh. I guess everybody's different. I have attended seminars with Frank. He is a big guy that hits real hard. I certainly wouldn't want to get hit by one of his flurries, but I'm not a very big guy, either.
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#361727 - 09/25/07 12:10 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: hedkikr]
Neko456 Offline
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I sparred and worked with with some Steve Sanders guys = (One of Master Parker Senior students) that were here while in the military. I was not so impressed with there 1 strike power which was adequate, but their footwork and angles along with their multiple striking these guys were awesome in a different way.

Far more complexed then the Tracy guys head by Roger Green an awesome one punch power strikers, with an awesome timing step.

But back to the Sanders guys I saw them time a spining backfist/hammer fist (this powerful guy was KO people with it)they'd enter the guys circle follow with a hail of punching until he hit the ground, waxing the bigger stronger power striker. No sweep, I like to sweep a spin move. All this can relate to street fighting, u miss anything and their behind you, raining strikes. Maybe I was impressed because they think the way I do, take the back less can hit you from his back. But they went about it differently.

Now thats off topic in that its not talking about striking power per say, but the angle plus the strikes and its good night Irene. These guy don't play tag they hit, Tracy or Parkers/Sanders group, both are Kenpo.


Edited by Neko456 (09/25/07 12:18 PM)
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#361728 - 09/25/07 12:49 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Neko456]
hedkikr Offline
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Frank Trejo used to box before AKK. Back then I thought he moved quickly for a big guy. I saw a photo of him recently & he's BALLOONED...pity.

Combinations are essential. But if not KO power, @ least stopping power (stun/hurt enough to stop their assault if even momentarily). Anything less is a waste of energy because in real life you'll miss more than you do in the dojo. That's why the automatic assumption that "Technique A" will lead to "B" which leads to "C" etc. isn't accurate. People move & fall. That's why 2-3 attacks per sequence is the most I'll teach. A SD scenario requires an "ala cart" mentality as opposed to a "banquet" mentality. You need to improvise rather than stick to a pre-set sequence.

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#361729 - 09/25/07 12:54 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: hedkikr]
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Quote:

A SD scenario requires an "ala cart" mentality as opposed to a "banquet" mentality. You need to improvise rather than stick to a pre-set sequence.




I agree with you there, and have found the same fault with a lot of AKK instruction. Many instructors have taken the SD techniques of AKK as "gospel", although that was never Mr Parker's intention (if you have read any of his stuff).

The techniques were never meant to be followed move-for-move. They are just "what-if?" guides - things you can do. But hardly anyone teaches it that way.
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#361730 - 09/25/07 01:11 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Matt, the last instructor I talked to that took the techniques as gospel, I promptly headed for the door.

hedkikr, my old sifu would test on the base techniques, but he always taught us combinations and grafts, and had us do a lot of "what if" scenarios. That's also why there are multiple techniques to deal with the same attack. If you go for a-b-c but a doesn't work, you don't move on to b anyway, you change over to 1-2-3, where ever you need to go to get the job done. Also, a lot of techniques were full of overkill. If a-b-c is not enough, then you keep going until you finish the job. Hence the BB extensions. He even had us create our own extensions as well as our own techniques.

I have never had the honor of meeting Mr. Parker, but I have had the honor of training with Prof. Huk Planas. For a fat old guy, he could hit hard. And his saying was that there are no "minor" strikes in Kenpo, only major strikes and really major strikes. Each strike and block aims for a particular target. Even if you don't hit that target, make it count as much as possible, or it was a waste of energy.

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#361731 - 09/25/07 01:13 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: hedkikr]
Neko456 Offline
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You make a good point I believe also that strikes should have different purpose, set up/daze and damage/take out. And like you stated you probably will miss more then you do in the dojo then in a real fight.

But not if you set it up, if you get the back and grab & hold every strike he's being pulled into. And you got the whole big old back not just the back of helmet in the street, hard to miss all that.

Unlike you I teach moves until finish, if he falls out of hand striking range we kick or go get, if falls into clinch knee/elbow/head butt range we do it, if he into sweep/throw/takewdown range u flow into that, you follow his movement he feeds your next move. I don't teach 2-3 moves what if he fades/blocks/slip these techniques. You back up and do 1-2-3 again? I'm asking because it so different then what I see in a real encounter.
I see a constant motion a flow of techniques until he makes his way out of range or he out of commission, or you need to back out. Then its 1-2-3 and move because you are playing a safe range fight. He has proven too skilled to be inside.

I'm just asking because I don't understand.
I do understand the Kenpo way of hitting until the guy is no longer a threat. Every blow I throw is not meant to KO, some are meant to just get a responce, like a kick to the grion, punch to the biscep or tip of the nose the next one Ko's. You got to set it up, wouldn't you agree?

Now I don't understand the slapping yourself theroy that does seem to be wasted motion, its been explained but I can't buy it as important I want everything hitting my oppoenet its the Goju way so you can see why I don't understand it. Its not my way/base.


Edited by Neko456 (09/25/07 01:21 PM)
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#361732 - 09/25/07 02:36 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Neko456]
hedkikr Offline
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Yeah, I never bought any of the explanations for the slapping thing either.

But your method is not unlike mine. I stated that I prefer 2-3 attacks per sequence. What I meant was that instead of the 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 (sequential) method, I teach something like (1-2-3)-(6-7)-(12-13-14) until threat ends. That's a lot different from 2-3 attacks stop & repeat. Keeping in mind variation in body position (his & yours), moving vs. backed into a wall, upright vs. fallen, etc. allows for this methodology.

That's actually the basis for kata - not a long choreographed fight against several opponents (the popular concept).

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#361733 - 09/25/07 04:43 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: hedkikr]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Essentially, that is what the AKK techniques are, mini kata.

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#361734 - 09/27/07 02:31 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: hedkikr]
Neko456 Offline
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I agree with the idea that a continued combination that doesn't consider that the man might move or react being hit, is not realistic. And it seems as more times then not the terminology differences rather then our method.

The chest slapping is imho for show, maybe in a strecht a distraction, but rebound energy is kinda like chi-ball throwing, not practical TO ME, not that doesn't work or exist. Matter of fact if Master Parker said it I believe it worked for him and those that followed him. But I'll past.

A Kenpo kicker want the opponent to be hurt but stay put unlike the front kick of Shotokan or TKD that knocks you across the room (though they do train a snap kick, they use the thrust most times) generalizing. Kenpo wants to hurt you to finish with their hands or opposite. Not really different then any fist style.


Edited by Neko456 (09/27/07 02:33 PM)
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#361735 - 09/27/07 03:03 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Neko456]
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Quote:

I agree with the idea that a continued combination that doesn't consider that the man might move or react being hit, is not realistic. And it seems as more times then not the terminology differences rather then our method.




I think this is a big problem here. The AKK self-defense techniques DO take into account the opponent's reactions - too much so IMHO. Some of them work very reliably, but others are.....eh........less so. But they are designed to work A-B-C, etc.

Quote:

The chest slapping is imho for show, maybe in a strecht a distraction, but rebound energy is kinda like chi-ball throwing, not practical TO ME, not that doesn't work or exist. Matter of fact if Master Parker said it I believe it worked for him and those that followed him. But I'll past.




I have seen enough of the rebounding concept to understand that it has a similar theoretical base to plyometrics ie; loading/unloading the muscles to help generate more force. My opinion is that it seems to require a lot of practice, and the benefit is questionable compared to the amount of training it takes to be functional. However, high ranks that I have seen who have mastered it do seem to be able to hit very hard. FWIW.
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#361736 - 09/27/07 04:54 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
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I have been busy and just now aware this thread had taken this turn.

My background is a hard style Karate and today I am studying Kenpo.

I would say this about it, first like any art in the hands of the wrong person it can turn into crap pretty fast, but in the hands of someone who works it correctly and gets it, it is a great system.

Those who say the "slapping" is for show, simply don't understand it, which is fine but don't call it for show because it's not, it has a specific purpose.

Those who think it has no power are quite wrong, what it does not do is overcommit to power at the cost of other things, but the strikes are plenty powerful.

Also, the ABC thing is completely wrong, the techniques can be used on order or not, the idea is take ownership of the movements and work them for yourself, not be a slave to them and in doing so you digest and trim any fat or waste away.

Kenpo is by definition a progressive art, not that everyone teaches it that way but they should be if they want to be true to Mr. Parker's concepts.
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#361737 - 09/27/07 05:13 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Kimo2007]
Neko456 Offline
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I question not only the rebounding purpose (and its been explained over and over), but I also have to ask while slapping your chest or arm, could you not be hit the opponent with the hand thats rebounding off your chest, could that hand not be rebounding off his chin or temple. I've heard it explained as possible checks for incoming, but what if to the head?

Power developing principles should be concentrated on outward projection, rather then rebounding, in mho. There is no way to calculate where the next attack is coming in an onslaught, you must react as it happens.

AM Kenpo practictioners hit as hard as almost anybody, but they prize themself in speed and do I. But not wasted motion. Granted I could be considering it wasted because I don't fully appreciate or understand its purpose or explaination.


Edited by Neko456 (09/27/07 05:15 PM)
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#361738 - 09/27/07 05:42 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Kimo2007]
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Quote:

Those who think it has no power are quite wrong, what it does not do is overcommit to power at the cost of other things, but the strikes are plenty powerful.




Agreed Kimo. After spending some time as a student both in group class and in private lessons with Joe Palanzo (who is a very small guy), I can assure you that he hits like a freight train. Fast and hard.

Quote:

Also, the ABC thing is completely wrong, the techniques can be used on order or not, the idea is take ownership of the movements and work them for yourself, not be a slave to them and in doing so you digest and trim any fat or waste away.




Good point, and I should relate a story about one of the first private lessons I had with Mr Palanzo back in 1985. He was explaining how the principles and concepts of the techniques were what was important, not the moves themselves. I give him my typical slack-jawed look of teen-age insolence. "What do you mean?" I said.

Kids, be careful what you ask for.

He has me throw a right hook at his head, and does a signature AKK technique (5 swords for those that know it). He does it blindingly fast and hard enough to make me OOCH and AHCH a few time, but I recognized the move when he asked me what he did. Then he says, "Throw the same punch again.". So I did, and he blazed through some other very painful set of moves. He looks at me smiling, and asks "What technique did I just do?"

Blank stare from me - no idea.

So he says, "Throw the punch again, slowly". So I do, and he repeats what he just did, very slowly. "Recognize it, yet?"

My jaw remains slack, but at least I think I am not quite actually drooling.

He pops me on the forhead lightly with his palm, and says "I just did 5 swords, but backwards!" And it worked just as well, because understanding the concepts of each move allows it to be transposed in sequence with almost no effect.

*light bulb*

I carried this lesson with me to this day, and even used a variation of it when a student of mine questioned why we "didn't have any weapons techniques in Kenpo". I told him they're ALL weapons techniques, if you think about it. I proceeded to pick up a padded club and turn several empty-hand techniques into weapons moves.

Quote:

Kenpo is by definition a progressive art, not that everyone teaches it that way but they should be if they want to be true to Mr. Parker's concepts.




Indeed.
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#361739 - 09/27/07 06:02 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Neko456]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

but I also have to ask while slapping your chest or arm, could you not be hit the opponent with the hand thats rebounding off your chest, could that hand not be rebounding off his chin or temple. I've heard it explained as possible checks for incoming, but what if to the head?





I find this very interesting because that is exactly what it would be doing, amazing how things are trained and explained so differently.

The slapping is a timing and movement drill, to be applied to techniques, so when I hear it's a check, I have to wonder.

I guess different people learn different things but I guess if someone told me to slap myself during a fight, I would have to question that too.
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#361740 - 09/27/07 06:47 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Kimo2007]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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I actually did very little slapping to myself when I trained. Any time I can think of that I would have the chance to slap myself, I was taught to complete the circle and strike from that.

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#361741 - 10/02/07 04:58 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
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I was reminded by one of the other members about this Paul Mills demo video:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15935144

While I have never worked with Mills in person, I know people that have. They all said that his speed and power were most serious.
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#361742 - 10/02/07 08:44 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Matt, it definitely looked like it in that video. Every one of those guys moved after being hit.

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#361743 - 10/02/07 10:43 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
BrianS Offline
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Well yeah. They were just standing there. Uke abuse...
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#361744 - 10/03/07 08:21 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: BrianS]
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I hear you, Brian. That is part of the training in AKK (hitting and being able to take a hit). That is black belt level stuff, though - low ranks are generally not whipped-up on like that.

But I posted it as a response to questions about striking power with speed. While there are a lot of AKK people that flail about with little focus or power, there are some that know how to hit very hard with speed. FWIW.
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#361745 - 10/09/07 01:06 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
Stormdragon Offline
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How would AKK work agaisnt a guy who punches fast, hard, and tight (short sharp punches) many tiems i na row? It seems geared for wider and longer attacks that are more ocmmitted unlike a boxer say.
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#361746 - 10/09/07 01:22 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

How would AKK work agaisnt a guy who punches fast, hard, and tight (short sharp punches) many tiems i na row? It seems geared for wider and longer attacks that are more ocmmitted unlike a boxer say.




From what I have witnessed from kempo they are the ones who punch multiple times quickly from inside.
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#361747 - 10/09/07 01:57 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
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So do good boxers, it seems mainly that their devensive measures, especially blocks, would be easy to slip and strike past, as they are slightly overcommited but thats just what I see. I'm pretty sure I'm very wrong.
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#361748 - 10/09/07 02:09 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
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Saying and doing are two different things.

Everyone has their own style, no matter what style they take.
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#361749 - 10/09/07 02:12 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
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What does that have ot do with the effectiveness and practice vs. theory of AKK checks and blocks agaisnt fast, short punches? All I see in demos (and dont get me wrong I love Kenpo) are techniques against more committed and unrefined attacks but what about the refined and skilled ones?
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#361750 - 10/09/07 09:04 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Stormdragon]
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Quote:

So do good boxers, it seems mainly that their devensive measures, especially blocks, would be easy to slip and strike past, as they are slightly overcommited but thats just what I see. I'm pretty sure I'm very wrong.




You are.

The point of AKK is not to block forever. You get past the intial strike or strikes, then you unload on them. BrianS is right.
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#361751 - 10/10/07 01:53 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
Stormdragon Offline
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Good point. What are extensions and grafts?


Edited by Stormdragon (10/10/07 01:56 AM)
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#361752 - 10/10/07 06:57 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Extensions are part of the technique that are taught later. Often referred to as Black Belt Extensions. Grafts are where you take parts of two different techniques and flow them into one to fit some different situations. A lot of AKK techniques leave you in similar positions, so it is easy, if you need to, to go from one technique to the next from that similarity point.

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#361753 - 10/17/07 02:37 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
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Quote:

Quote:

You can definitely see Prof. Chows and Prof. Emperado's in his system. Personally I don't see a lot of Master's Mitose movement in Parkers system.




Interesting comment. I certainly agree with you about the Chow influence - Parker openly copied much of Chow's style of movement.




A video of Prof. Chow for comparison -

http://www.kajukenboinfo.com/professor_chow.aspx
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#361754 - 10/27/07 01:59 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Can anyone say cheese?

I love all that, "well, first I'd chop off your head than break your arm" stuff!

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#361755 - 10/27/07 09:35 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: fileboy2002]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

Can anyone say cheese?






Cheap shots at Ed Parker does more to belittle you then anything else.

Keep in mind you are watching early footage of a man who would one day become internationally known MA.

Sure the theatre of this might be a bit cheesy by todays standards, but thats no reason to make some sophomore insult.
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#361756 - 10/27/07 11:34 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Kimo2007]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Here's another sophmore insult: although many of Kenpo's hand movements are fast, few seem to have much power behind them. What good does it do to flurry an aopponenet with punches if those punches don't land hard enough to disturb Shirley Temple's curls?

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#361757 - 10/28/07 12:03 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: fileboy2002]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Kimo, you give him too much credit. Sophomore is way too mature. 6th grade is more like it.

Fileboy, have you ever studied AKK? From those who have trained with him, I have heard that Ed Parker was very fast and very powerful. Yes, the art has mostly gone to crap these days, but there are a few good schools out there, and for someone who actually delves into the art, the fast strikes can be very powerful. Try insulting something you actually know about, before you insult an art and it's founder without basis.

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#361758 - 10/28/07 10:16 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: fileboy2002]
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Quote:

Here's another sophmore insult: although many of Kenpo's hand movements are fast, few seem to have much power behind them. What good does it do to flurry an aopponenet with punches if those punches don't land hard enough to disturb Shirley Temple's curls?






Dude, did you even read any of this thread at all? Did you look at the Paul Mills video? Surely you can't tell me that Ed Parker couldn't hit hard?

Here is some more video of Ed Parker to infuriate and titillate:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=7#Post15883635


Edited by MattJ (10/28/07 10:22 PM)
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#361759 - 11/03/07 08:38 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
TeK9 Offline
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Currently I'm of the opinion that all kenpo systems are the same. Kenpo is a set of concepts and philosiphies towards combat. In my opinion Mr. Parker did not create anything he just named what was already being used. In in some cases like the "founder" of Tae Kwon-Do Gen Choi Kwang, he was a bit eccentric with the terms he used.

From my experience with seeing and having the oppertunity to practice kenpo from styles such as AKK (Parker style), Shaolin kenpo (Castro style), Kosho ryu kenpo (Mitose style), kajukenbo, Cerio Kenpo I have come to see that the only difference is the tricks in which these styles emphasize. The moves are the same, all the same tools are being used, however, the tricks are performed differently.

From my own observation kenpo is a mid to close range system of combat. Capable of boxing from mid range and decent when it comes to close trapping range, however, because of the smothering and clinching many kenpo schools have added grappling, something which I believe was not there in the begining, something that AKK (post Parker)added. Kenpo is essential a striking art, only with the fusino of kajukenbo was it a full ranged art, much of the original kenpo was based in Christian doctrine as I understand Mitose became a very religious man before and particularly after his imprisonment.

I have asked this question before and matt has taken the time to answer. Can kenpo be used as an offensive art? Many if not all kenpo bunkai begins with a defensive block. Matt you answer was to remove the block and go from there. I have always found it difficult to comprehend that basic answer, because it just seemed so obvious however, extremely difficult to make work during training.

Having studied concepts in PFS/JKD/FMA I now see a huge gap missing in my kenpo training, which I believe is found in most other schools. The element of different ranges, as many know there are 4 different ranges of attack and traditional kenpo really only excels in 2 of those (mid and close).

Trying out your advice was a particularly painful thing for me, when applying the techniques with boxing gloves, I just could not get in fast enough or effective enough to pull off those multiple attacks against a boxing like attacker (my brother), let alone a kick boxer.

However, taking in the concepts of destructions and before during after principles of JKD I've begun to apply the very most basic tools of kenpo against a live opponent.

I am now capable of getting within range of using some of the "tricks" that one learns in a kenpo school. HOwever, once the clinch is applied i'm afraid kenpo is thrown out the window. At least for me....currently.
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#361760 - 11/17/07 12:56 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: TeK9]
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Quote:

I have asked this question before and matt has taken the time to answer. Can kenpo be used as an offensive art? Many if not all kenpo bunkai begins with a defensive block. Matt you answer was to remove the block and go from there. I have always found it difficult to comprehend that basic answer, because it just seemed so obvious however, extremely difficult to make work during training.




http://www.ohanakenpo.com/Techniques.htm

Ed Parker on Techniques:

"I teach Kenpo, not for the sake of teaching the techniques, but for the principles involved in them. And even then, these principles must be altered to fit the individual.

The reason I give my techniques names is because there are certain sequences associated with these terms. If I told a student tomorrow that I was going to teach him a counter version to a double hand grab, it's not as meaningful as when I say I'm going to teach him ‘Parting Wings.’

You’ve got to know how to vary things. A lot of the techniques I’ve worked with, they’re ideas, they’re not rules. At any given time, any of my moves can change from defense to offense, offense to defense.

Martial artists, and Kenpo people especially, become so involved in doing the techniques exactly right in such and such amount of time, that they get caught in a pattern that they can’t break. That’s not what they’re for. Specific moves, specific techniques are based, like the ABC’s in the English language or standard football plays.

You have to have a point of reference and from there the combinations are endless and limited only by universal laws, laws that you can’t change."
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#361761 - 01/31/08 08:19 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
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Linking this thread here, about Mitose/Chow:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...5ee0df43ebba2ec
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#361762 - 01/31/08 10:36 AM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: TeK9]
Neko456 Offline
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I disagree Kenpo varies greatly based on the Instructor teaching the system. Kenpo can be as hard and deep stance as Shotokan, it can be High stance and flowing blocks with one punch stoping power like Shorin, it can be High stance with multiple open and close strikes like Kung-fu. It just depends on which base system they started and liked. What you see is your discription is people that mostly came from the Chow/Parker base and they differ, Master Sander's ABKF can look line Shorin rather then Am kenpo and he's Parker base, until he goes into his speed mode then C/P comes out him.

Most Mitose or Tracy Kenpo people vary from Shotokan looking moves and Katas to multiple strike Shorin they flow less then Parkers AMK.

As for difference in Soko Chow's system and Master Parker, Chows system is a method of old style of fighting, you do this because it works. Ed Parker orgainized his system with philosophies and technicail how,why it works, he took working Kenpo reasoned and explained why. Master Parker along with Bruce Lee was a free thinking totally modern Sensei that spoke of changes with time and people. He was not like Master Chow who if you questioned would show it WORKED meaning bust your a$$ or just say because Chow said so. Parkers forms are totally different then hard Kenpo that looks Shorin base.

As for General Choi doing the same as Parker you have to have a base and because we are limited by having 2 arms and 2 legs the techniques will not look that much different.

But you have to admit that TKD moves and stress totally different approaches then Shoto-Kan or Shorin-ryu or to be more on point, Tang-soo-do. Its argued by some that TKD maybe Korean orgin art? TSD by definition is not.


Edited by Neko456 (01/31/08 10:41 AM)
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#361763 - 02/07/08 08:26 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
Ironfoot Offline
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No power in AKK? I had the honor of studying under one of Parker's early senior students for 3 years. Those in the know are surprised I never had to go to the hospital.
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#361764 - 02/08/08 12:35 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Ironfoot]
Neko456 Offline
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Tek9 wrote - However, taking in the concepts of destructions and before during after principles of JKD I've begun to apply the very most basic tools of kenpo against a live opponent.

I am now capable of getting within range of using some of the "tricks" that one learns in a kenpo school. HOwever, once the clinch is applied i'm afraid kenpo is thrown out the window. At least for me....currently.

Me - Really most Karate or striking MA changes under boxing rules or gloved. 1st thing is you can't grab and hold. Thats were we start multiple strikes when the guy can't get out a hold. So this isn't a strike against Kenpo. U seem to be explororing your options and doing well but know glove sparring offer difference in open hand.

As for the clinch thats a techniques that suppose to stop multiple strikes, you have to pot shot and look/work for your strikes in a clinch. And the range changes from kicks and fist to knees, short shots, upper cuts and elbows (incidently Kenpo/Karate has plenty of those). So it is just you that throws AMK like moves out the window.

Kenpo stresses speed equals power they have power techniques that can hurt with one shot usually combinations with a ending power shot. Which is sound reasoning.


Ironfoot - I'm not shocked that you didn't spend time in the hospital most have very good control at that level. Of course yoiu have to be pretty sharp yourself not to run into something, you must belong at that level.
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