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#361734 - 09/27/07 02:31 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: hedkikr]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with the idea that a continued combination that doesn't consider that the man might move or react being hit, is not realistic. And it seems as more times then not the terminology differences rather then our method.

The chest slapping is imho for show, maybe in a strecht a distraction, but rebound energy is kinda like chi-ball throwing, not practical TO ME, not that doesn't work or exist. Matter of fact if Master Parker said it I believe it worked for him and those that followed him. But I'll past.

A Kenpo kicker want the opponent to be hurt but stay put unlike the front kick of Shotokan or TKD that knocks you across the room (though they do train a snap kick, they use the thrust most times) generalizing. Kenpo wants to hurt you to finish with their hands or opposite. Not really different then any fist style.


Edited by Neko456 (09/27/07 02:33 PM)
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#361735 - 09/27/07 03:03 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

I agree with the idea that a continued combination that doesn't consider that the man might move or react being hit, is not realistic. And it seems as more times then not the terminology differences rather then our method.




I think this is a big problem here. The AKK self-defense techniques DO take into account the opponent's reactions - too much so IMHO. Some of them work very reliably, but others are.....eh........less so. But they are designed to work A-B-C, etc.

Quote:

The chest slapping is imho for show, maybe in a strecht a distraction, but rebound energy is kinda like chi-ball throwing, not practical TO ME, not that doesn't work or exist. Matter of fact if Master Parker said it I believe it worked for him and those that followed him. But I'll past.




I have seen enough of the rebounding concept to understand that it has a similar theoretical base to plyometrics ie; loading/unloading the muscles to help generate more force. My opinion is that it seems to require a lot of practice, and the benefit is questionable compared to the amount of training it takes to be functional. However, high ranks that I have seen who have mastered it do seem to be able to hit very hard. FWIW.
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#361736 - 09/27/07 04:54 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
I have been busy and just now aware this thread had taken this turn.

My background is a hard style Karate and today I am studying Kenpo.

I would say this about it, first like any art in the hands of the wrong person it can turn into crap pretty fast, but in the hands of someone who works it correctly and gets it, it is a great system.

Those who say the "slapping" is for show, simply don't understand it, which is fine but don't call it for show because it's not, it has a specific purpose.

Those who think it has no power are quite wrong, what it does not do is overcommit to power at the cost of other things, but the strikes are plenty powerful.

Also, the ABC thing is completely wrong, the techniques can be used on order or not, the idea is take ownership of the movements and work them for yourself, not be a slave to them and in doing so you digest and trim any fat or waste away.

Kenpo is by definition a progressive art, not that everyone teaches it that way but they should be if they want to be true to Mr. Parker's concepts.
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#361737 - 09/27/07 05:13 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Kimo2007]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I question not only the rebounding purpose (and its been explained over and over), but I also have to ask while slapping your chest or arm, could you not be hit the opponent with the hand thats rebounding off your chest, could that hand not be rebounding off his chin or temple. I've heard it explained as possible checks for incoming, but what if to the head?

Power developing principles should be concentrated on outward projection, rather then rebounding, in mho. There is no way to calculate where the next attack is coming in an onslaught, you must react as it happens.

AM Kenpo practictioners hit as hard as almost anybody, but they prize themself in speed and do I. But not wasted motion. Granted I could be considering it wasted because I don't fully appreciate or understand its purpose or explaination.


Edited by Neko456 (09/27/07 05:15 PM)
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#361738 - 09/27/07 05:42 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

Those who think it has no power are quite wrong, what it does not do is overcommit to power at the cost of other things, but the strikes are plenty powerful.




Agreed Kimo. After spending some time as a student both in group class and in private lessons with Joe Palanzo (who is a very small guy), I can assure you that he hits like a freight train. Fast and hard.

Quote:

Also, the ABC thing is completely wrong, the techniques can be used on order or not, the idea is take ownership of the movements and work them for yourself, not be a slave to them and in doing so you digest and trim any fat or waste away.




Good point, and I should relate a story about one of the first private lessons I had with Mr Palanzo back in 1985. He was explaining how the principles and concepts of the techniques were what was important, not the moves themselves. I give him my typical slack-jawed look of teen-age insolence. "What do you mean?" I said.

Kids, be careful what you ask for.

He has me throw a right hook at his head, and does a signature AKK technique (5 swords for those that know it). He does it blindingly fast and hard enough to make me OOCH and AHCH a few time, but I recognized the move when he asked me what he did. Then he says, "Throw the same punch again.". So I did, and he blazed through some other very painful set of moves. He looks at me smiling, and asks "What technique did I just do?"

Blank stare from me - no idea.

So he says, "Throw the punch again, slowly". So I do, and he repeats what he just did, very slowly. "Recognize it, yet?"

My jaw remains slack, but at least I think I am not quite actually drooling.

He pops me on the forhead lightly with his palm, and says "I just did 5 swords, but backwards!" And it worked just as well, because understanding the concepts of each move allows it to be transposed in sequence with almost no effect.

*light bulb*

I carried this lesson with me to this day, and even used a variation of it when a student of mine questioned why we "didn't have any weapons techniques in Kenpo". I told him they're ALL weapons techniques, if you think about it. I proceeded to pick up a padded club and turn several empty-hand techniques into weapons moves.

Quote:

Kenpo is by definition a progressive art, not that everyone teaches it that way but they should be if they want to be true to Mr. Parker's concepts.




Indeed.
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#361739 - 09/27/07 06:02 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Neko456]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

but I also have to ask while slapping your chest or arm, could you not be hit the opponent with the hand thats rebounding off your chest, could that hand not be rebounding off his chin or temple. I've heard it explained as possible checks for incoming, but what if to the head?





I find this very interesting because that is exactly what it would be doing, amazing how things are trained and explained so differently.

The slapping is a timing and movement drill, to be applied to techniques, so when I hear it's a check, I have to wonder.

I guess different people learn different things but I guess if someone told me to slap myself during a fight, I would have to question that too.
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#361740 - 09/27/07 06:47 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Kimo2007]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I actually did very little slapping to myself when I trained. Any time I can think of that I would have the chance to slap myself, I was taught to complete the circle and strike from that.

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#361741 - 10/02/07 04:58 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I was reminded by one of the other members about this Paul Mills demo video:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15935144

While I have never worked with Mills in person, I know people that have. They all said that his speed and power were most serious.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#361742 - 10/02/07 08:44 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Matt, it definitely looked like it in that video. Every one of those guys moved after being hit.

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#361743 - 10/02/07 10:43 PM Re: Vintage Ed Parker AKK videos [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Well yeah. They were just standing there. Uke abuse...
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