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#361425 - 09/18/07 12:09 AM methods for developing short-range power
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
what are your methods for developing short power? if you want to think 1" punch, no problem, but I'm interested in the method YOU use to refine this skill: non-chambered short-range strikes.

speaking in terms of concepts are fine, as long as they aren't ONLY concepts to you, but actual demonstratable decent power generation that you can actually do....would be the most useful to the thread's topic.

All Art perspectives invited. I just used this area as the most likely to generate response.

thanks in advance.

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#361426 - 09/18/07 02:19 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
ashe_higgs Offline
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just work everything big to medium to small.
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#361427 - 09/18/07 06:19 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: ashe_higgs]
WhiteDragon11 Offline
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Well dont worry about your arm strength as you do the technique of the punch. Using your hips and keeping your punch in close adds a lot of power.

And like Ashe said practice everything. Eventually you will pick it up.

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#361428 - 09/18/07 07:24 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
Usenthemighty Offline
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Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
I practice turning my hips before my shoulders, while keeping my elbow down and wrist straight. My method hits on getting my waist/ shoulder rotation speed up.

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#361429 - 09/18/07 09:18 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: ashe_higgs]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6768
exaggurating and refining...general to specific. pretty much the method of learning anything.

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#361430 - 09/18/07 09:24 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: WhiteDragon11]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I think if you actually trained it, you'd know that a short range strike isn't about 'keeping your arm' anywhere - it's generating a decent hit from whrerever your hand/arm may be at the time - without chambering and without time consuming hip action or any kind of wind-up.

c'mon folks, you can do better than this. please note in the opening post, that the prerequisite to answering is that you have actually trained it and know what I'm talking about.


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#361431 - 09/18/07 09:29 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
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Just a beginner question: I don't know this 'one inch punch' you refer to...but as a beginner my tendency is to consider all punches/movement start from the feet/rooting.

Is 'striking from any point' really divorced from rooting?

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#361432 - 09/18/07 10:23 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
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AKK used the concept of "point of origin". This means being able to throw a strike from any hand position, chambered or not. We rely on hip torque and body weight transfer (dropping and launching forward or backwards) primarily.

We also trained to progressively "shorten" the limbs, if the "primary" weapon was jammed ie; punch becomes elbow, elbow becomes shoulder, kick becomes knee, etc.


Edited by MattJ (09/18/07 10:26 AM)
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#361433 - 09/18/07 01:16 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Hip torque/koshi twisting, sinking or rising, well developed base, forward thrust of hip/koshi/bodyweight, and relaxation are all key. However, I have learned one of the most important principles is also the way to develop whipping power. Yes strike from whatever position your hand is in, however, the key is that your hand follows your hip and not the other way around. Hips move hand stays until hips stop, then hand explodes out. Acutally, this is why chambered striking in jigotai(horse stance) is good. It really teaches this principle. Along with a few others. This is a way to develop explosive short range stopping power.
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#361434 - 09/18/07 03:22 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: medulanet]
butterfly Offline
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I do happen to agree about the whipping action! Don't happen to agree about training horse stance chambered punches to get there. But, each to his own....

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#361435 - 09/19/07 02:47 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: butterfly]
hedkikr Offline
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I'm aware of the role relaxation plays but haven't developed (practiced) the technique because I'm not sure of the intricacies. I don't want to get good @ doing it wrong.

As stated before, I've seen B.L.'s 1"-punch & it looks like a push to me (yes, a fast push but a push none the less).

Can anyone post a vid of a REAL 1"-punch (not just high school guys playing @ it). Maybe you could make a vid of yourself & post it on YouTube.

Thanks

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#361436 - 09/19/07 02:52 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: hedkikr]
hedkikr Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
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Question:

To perform the technique, the fist is 1" from the target (hense the name). How far "into" the target does the fist move?

If it's 2-3 inches, then I can believe it. If it's 4-6" (or more), I consider it a push. (refer to my comments on the "snapping punch" thread).

Thanks again

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#361437 - 09/19/07 05:32 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: hedkikr]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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i dont really know how to explain the power generation of hakka arts that usually focus around short ranged power.

Best I can explain it is that when someone jumps out and scares you, your body jumps with a lot of force. That body jumping generates a lot of power, if someone where to hold you down you'd still probably be able to move with that jumping power. Hakka arts (at least the Southern Praying Mantis that I'm currently practicing) want to translate that power generation into a voluntary thing so that you can create lots of power with small distance.

How do you train?
Well lots of partnered excercises to develop strength for the arm when it is extended away from the body. Chest caved in and shoulders pushed forward. Repeated partnered drills where all of the hand motions are outside and not chambered. Though you really have to engrave the fact that your hands have to be outside to fight like this, otherwise they will start to come back in.

The first thing would be to start doing all techniques with your hands outside and keeping them there.
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#361438 - 09/19/07 10:18 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: butterfly]
Totality Offline
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Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I use a couple of methods for close striking.

If I am alone I will put my forehead against my heavy bag and keep it there while I work hooks, shovel hooks, straight punches, elbows, shoulders, etc...

If I have a training partner I will have them put on a good quality chest protector and some focus mitts. I will strike my way in and then 'stick' with them as they try loosing me, all the while striking from close range. If for some reason they get away, we regroup and I repeat the processes trying to 'stick' with them longer each time.

I never chamber my punches as this takes time, but allow proper body sculpting and structure to have my hands where they need to be.

IMHO

Thanks
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#361439 - 09/20/07 07:28 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Totality]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

I will put my forehead against my heavy bag and keep it there while I work hooks, shovel hooks, straight punches, elbows, shoulders, etc...




Good stuff. I do the same thing.
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#361440 - 09/20/07 03:03 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: MattJ]
Fisherman Offline
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Train relaxed, integrated whole body power (as Ashe said) from big to small.
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#361441 - 09/20/07 04:51 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Fisherman]
Neko456 Offline
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Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I follow that idea and practice to be total relaxation and timing, you stand in front of the bag or pad, relaxed/calm mind (I haven't got this down yet totally) with body relaxed as mentioned the legs torque the hips jerk and the punch or strike explodes into the bag (all these are slight motions as if twichting).Body mechanics needs to be instinctive, your focus is whatever depth your mind projects, but we are talking 2-6 inches not feet or through the bag. If done right the bag doesn't swing much, it bends at point of impact and lifts and the chain pops.

If you tighten up you loose this power and it becomes a push or thrust strike, if your mechanics are wrong your wrist will bend, if your timings and focus is off you will miss solid contact and burn/scrape your knuckles.

Practically speaking its good training bc this is a great intercepting strike (I'm not talking about blocking I'm saying you see his shoulder move and go) its relaxed, comes from nowhere and theres no big motion to give it away. With power that can end it right then and there.

Sorry I TMI (too much information) again. Everybody else were being concise. I beg your pardon. By the way breathing helps in this technique also.


Edited by Neko456 (09/20/07 05:00 PM)
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#361442 - 09/22/07 04:51 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I follow that idea and practice to be total relaxation and timing, you stand in front of the bag or pad, relaxed/calm mind (I haven't got this down yet totally) with body relaxed as mentioned the legs torque the hips jerk and the punch or strike explodes into the bag (all these are slight motions as if twichting).Body mechanics needs to be instinctive, your focus is whatever depth your mind projects, but we are talking 2-6 inches not feet or through the bag. If done right the bag doesn't swing much, it bends at point of impact and lifts and the chain pops.

If you tighten up you loose this power and it becomes a push or thrust strike, if your mechanics are wrong your wrist will bend, if your timings and focus is off you will miss solid contact and burn/scrape your knuckles.

Practically speaking its good training bc this is a great intercepting strike (I'm not talking about blocking I'm saying you see his shoulder move and go) its relaxed, comes from nowhere and theres no big motion to give it away. With power that can end it right then and there.

Sorry I TMI (too much information) again. Everybody else were being concise. I beg your pardon. By the way breathing helps in this technique also.




Hi Neko.

Personaly I cant see the use of a one inch punch except for demonstrations but I suppose if I met someone who could use it I might change my mind. If I was in a fight and had no chance to leave the fight then at that range I would be either using head butts or elbow/forearms but even then it would be difficult to get no chambering at all.

Maybe a head butt could be trained with minimum/no chambering? For in close work I use weight training combined with technique work ( the correct muscle group eg hook/uppercut off my lats,hips and not just my shoulders)

I believe the internal arts use rooting for power generation. I think this is delivering strikes while the weight is on that side of the body but Im not to sure on that one.

Im experimenting a bit but I could do with some one who could demonstrate the technique.

Jude

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#361443 - 09/22/07 04:49 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
Totality Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hi Jude,

'Rooting' would be the base of my structure. Now when I say 'structure' I am talking about complete connectivity, from the ground up. I don't use the term relax', but rather softening, sealing and connecting.

I believe the 'one inch punch' in which Bruce Lee demonstrated was done with an added push to over exaggerate the technique and physics involved. When done correctly (which no doubt Bruce could do) the person being hit would absorb the entire impact with zero rebound coming back to the striker and this in turn would cause internal injuries such as bleeding and broken bones. The one inch punch if shown and not felt, doesn't look like much. Even on the heavy bag, the bag may pop-up and down, but not move. Pretty boring...lol

Punching with the same force from 'one inch' away to 2 feet away means that the practitioner understands the physics behind 'their' structure and body connectivity.

I have been on the receiving end of the 'one inch' punch while holding a kicking shield and trust me it hurt...not to mention I didn't move an inch.

I don't think this type of power can be explained properly on a forum or in a book. If you can find someone who really knows how to execute it then I would stick close till you feel it yourself.

IMHO
Thanks,
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#361444 - 09/23/07 04:21 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: medulanet]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Medulant:

Don't forget standard horse stance also guarantees ~no haphazard~ aspects.. standardized to eliminate the random additions/subtractions rather than "...ok, from this position, here is one method by which to unlock this, that, and this muscle group..." and produce power at short range.

Repetition is crucial to engrain & vital to explore, examine.

Jeff

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#361445 - 09/23/07 04:36 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Lots of approaches, but physical dead-weight, by which I mean uninhibited, unrestrained techniques. Tension be it structural muscular, or mental which has "somatic effect" kills short range power.

Learning to ~unlock the muscles~ that have no merit to the desired technique. Ummmmmngh, why are your shoulders so tightly raised? Whay are her hands clenched tightly in fists for this techqnique? Remove the unhelpful contraction, the tension.

Hatha Yoga/Meditation to give me awareness of my body, its tight spots. Time is mandatory. Many I cannot change on my own. For those areas, my lovely wife, or a professional massage therapist, a PT seem quite beneficial.

It is not the relaxation unto itself which provide the power, but the ability to IN SPITE of my tensions, their presence that I can let go anyway.

The heavy bag tells me if I am relaxed. Is it bending or swinging? If it swings means I am not generating short range power correctly.

Jeff

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#361446 - 09/23/07 05:48 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Steve Morris's methods are worth checking out for short range power.Its one of his specialitys.
From what iv learnt there a number of ways that can help indivualy or together depending on the situation.

Like has been mentioned...the startle reflex can give speed and power.Jumping the shot in.Or what he calls emergency minset.The intent and emotion exploding in your head in that instant.This helps stretch the muscles spindles.Its better to use these spindles than the golgi tendon,which is normaly used if you think too much and will act as an inhibiter to stop your muscles hurting.
Now i dont understand fully.Still learing,lol.Best to check it out.

Also the violent use of the head.Post the head over the lead foot.Think this is like the rooting thats been mentioned.This means ,amongst other things,you use the mucsles going diagonaly rather than vertical,as there is more going diagonaly from right shoulder to left hip.Use clawing shots ratherthan straight ones.
I remember him say its like your heads a boulder on the edge of a cliff and you topple it off the cliff at the moment you strike.
Theres more.Bit hard to explain.Worth checking out.
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#361447 - 09/24/07 01:31 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ronin1966]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hello Medulant:

Don't forget standard horse stance also guarantees ~no haphazard~ aspects.. standardized to eliminate the random additions/subtractions rather than "...ok, from this position, here is one method by which to unlock this, that, and this muscle group..." and produce power at short range.

Repetition is crucial to engrain & vital to explore, examine.

Jeff




Hi Jeff.

Please dont take this the wrong way but I cant understand a single sentence you have written?

Quote:


It is not the relaxation unto itself which provide the power, but the ability to IN SPITE of my tensions, their presence that I can let go anyway.

The heavy bag tells me if I am relaxed. Is it bending or swinging? If it swings means I am not generating short range power correctly.






I can understand this one. I can see your point on muscle relaxation being required in certain cases. But if a person is being confronted by an aggressive potential/attacker it would be difficult to remain relaxed.

I think in most cases the adrenalin dump/overload would determine the state of a persons mind therefore their muscles?.

Jude




ED.Morris

Quote:


think if you actually trained it, you'd know that a short range strike isn't about 'keeping your arm' anywhere - it's generating a decent hit from whrerever your hand/arm may be at the time - without chambering and without time consuming hip action or any kind of wind-up.

c'mon folks, you can do better than this. please note in the opening post, that the prerequisite to answering is that you have actually trained it and know what I'm talking about.





Your earlier explanation, are you saying none use of the hip?
If so I have noticed a lot of boxers not using their hips or rather very little use of the hip. I believe part of goju training uses no hip rotation where their feet are rooted to the floor? Is that what you were refering to?
If so what are your thoughts?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (09/24/07 01:51 AM)

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#361448 - 09/24/07 09:03 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Jude:

I am sorry.

Using a standard stance (eg horse/kiba), removes ALL the haphazard parts and makes identifying, exploring what generates the power of a given technique, any technique very clear.

If as a group, or in a group you do a technique haphazardly
if we don't standardize as many things as humanly possible... figuring out, learning how to increase that power (short range) is more difficult.

Jeff

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#361449 - 09/24/07 09:18 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Jude:

<<But if a person is being confronted by an aggressive potential/attacker it would be difficult to remain relaxed.

Thats why we practice it, no ? Practice so relaxation is not a problem in the face of intense conflict.

<<I think in most cases the adrenalin dump/overload would determine the state of a persons mind therefore their muscles?.

Which is why one practices the adrenaline dump katas, intense practice to learn how to not be overwhelmed by these sensations in the least. Use them, befriend them... explore how to use them.

Hips, no hips how to generate power depends on our structure and how the muscles are used in same. I do not want to be hit by a 20 year Bagwa Practitioner, nor a 20 year JKA person either. Both have a style/methods of power generation...

Ouch

Jeff

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#361450 - 09/25/07 05:32 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ronin1966]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hello Jude:

<<But if a person is being confronted by an aggressive potential/attacker it would be difficult to remain relaxed.

Thats why we practice it, no ? Practice so relaxation is not a problem in the face of intense conflict.

<<I think in most cases the adrenalin dump/overload would determine the state of a persons mind therefore their muscles?.

Which is why one practices the adrenaline dump katas, intense practice to learn how to not be overwhelmed by these sensations in the least. Use them, befriend them... explore how to use them.

Hips, no hips how to generate power depends on our structure and how the muscles are used in same. I do not want to be hit by a 20 year Bagwa Practitioner, nor a 20 year JKA person either. Both have a style/methods of power generation...

Ouch

Jeff




Thanks Jeff.
Very clear, realistic and for me all very thought provoking. The kata you refer to is this when a specific kata is used to test body conditioning?

Jude

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#361451 - 09/25/07 10:39 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Jude:

Thank you... for the compliment. Ill tell my wife, "...hey honey I'm not always a complete baffoon..."

Some certainly use it that way, which I personally find misguided/dangerous. I refuse to believe the purpose of such drills/practices were to make us human heavy bags-makiwara. (ie Some folks can hit hard, dangerously hard.) I propose such was simply a bonus, a by-product these kata. Sanchin kata specifically seems the "template" how to identify systems-ways to strengthen without tangible effort, yet produce very real power regardless

I find no sense to train to take blows rather than learning training to avoid them. I will get hit, but to use the practice to do so (take hits with impunity) repeatedly... seems unwise... IMHV.

But Chojun Miyagi, Higaonna, I will never be. Kyan... perhaps but not today I fear...

Jeff

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#361452 - 09/25/07 11:26 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
Xaith Offline
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Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 101
Loc: Indiana
Heavy bag, over and over and over. Sometimes full power, sometimes really slow to go over all the body mechanics and tweak what needs to be fixed. I'll use a concrete wall to check the structure of the strike, which can also be an isometric exercise.

My teacher emphasizes using the weight transfer for force, but you have to be careful to keep it from becoming a push. Naturally, the weight transfer isn't the only part of a good short range strike, but it provides more power than the other components.

Another aspect, although this is a slightly different technique, is the wind-up. I know you said that you were talking about striking from wherever your arm happened to be, but for this version, it is assumed that you are unlikely to have assumed a truly static position in a fight, that is to say, your arm is moving and if you have been checked or blocked (or if you have just checked an opponent's strike) it probably isn't moving in just the right direction to your target. So, it's still striking from whereever your arm happens to be, but also from whatever inertia your arm happens to have at the moment. Now, I said "wind-up" but it is really really small and fast. You still aren't really withdrawing your arm, it's just a tiny, quick, circular movement that redirects your existing inertia to where you want to go. This is quite a bit harder to develop, and you have to really get a good feel for it, but when you get it, it helps a lot. I'm horrible, a classic example of knowing what I'm supposed to do, but not having the control and feel to actually do it consistently, although tai chi helped quite a bit.

I know that may be a different technique, but it's still a short range power strike, it just assumes that your arm is in motion before attempting the strike, and that it is better to redirect the inertia than to try to halt it and restart it in a different direction.

I think this is the longest post I've written. I hope it is not too convoluted or rambling and I hope we're talking about the same thing.

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#361453 - 09/28/07 12:45 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
metempsychosis Offline
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Registered: 08/17/06
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I believe the uppercut is the most effective short range blow, assuming you are in very close range. For example when I box I keep my hands just under eye level, peekaboo style. When I practice uppercuts my fists only travel a few inches upwards into the uppercut bag, but has most power of any of my other punches because my whole body rises/twists into it.
edit-reading the last post makes another point. There's no windup with the uppercut if done correctly. Just straight upward force from neutral fist position.


Edited by metempsychosis (09/28/07 12:51 AM)

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#361454 - 09/28/07 05:28 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: matxtx]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Quote:


Like has been mentioned...the startle reflex can give speed and power.Jumping the shot in.Or what he calls emergency minset.The intent and emotion exploding in your head in that instant.This helps stretch the muscles spindles.Its better to use these spindles than the golgi tendon,which is normaly used if you think too much and will act as an inhibiter to stop your muscles hurting.




WTF?

you don't use the "golgi tendon". there is no golgi tendon. there is a golgi tendon organ, but you can't consciously control or use it, it's part of the sympathetic nervous system, a reflex organ.
so you're only half right.

wiki
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#361455 - 09/28/07 09:37 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: ashe_higgs]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
matxtx
Quote:



Like has been mentioned...the startle reflex can give speed and power.Jumping the shot in.Or what he calls emergency minset.The intent and emotion exploding in your head in that instant.This helps stretch the muscles spindles.Its better to use these spindles than the golgi tendon,which is normaly used if you think too much and will act as an inhibiter to stop your muscles hurting.




My thoughts.
I seem to remember having read about the use of the startle reflex in the book of five rings? I think the swordsman had totaly re-trained his natural reactions.
Either way. My experience of people being startled is they jump back and away from what ever it is that startled them.

That would seem to be logical. So would that mean your training was aimed at reacting with some form of attack if startled?




Quote:


ashe_higgs
WTF?

you don't use the "golgi tendon". there is no golgi tendon. there is a golgi tendon organ, but you can't consciously control or use it, it's part of the sympathetic nervous system, a reflex organ.
so you're only half right.

wiki




Interesting reading.

Jude.


Edited by jude33 (09/28/07 09:41 AM)

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#361456 - 09/28/07 01:41 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: ashe_higgs]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

Quote:


Like has been mentioned...the startle reflex can give speed and power.Jumping the shot in.Or what he calls emergency minset.The intent and emotion exploding in your head in that instant.This helps stretch the muscles spindles.Its better to use these spindles than the golgi tendon,which is normaly used if you think too much and will act as an inhibiter to stop your muscles hurting.




WTF?

you don't use the "golgi tendon". there is no golgi tendon. there is a golgi tendon organ, but you can't consciously control or use it, it's part of the sympathetic nervous system, a reflex organ.
so you're only half right.

wiki




Like I said,im still getting my head around it myself,lol.It is better to see what Steve Morris himself says and demonstrates and to maybe look into how the body works.
As far as I understand it at the minute is this....first I did not mean you controll it in the way I think you though I meant.
If you were in a fire and had to get through a door to get to your child,it would be an emergency.You would just smash the FFing thing down matter how.You explode.Biochemicaly you would be using muscle spindles.
If everything was calm and you had to smash the same door down it would be different.Your brain would feed your body differently ,your body would not want you to be hurt.Different mindset.
Its like mothers who lift cars to pull a child out.Not stupidly over their heads,just enough.Thats emergency mindset.
Or if you lash out in anger or get hurt suddenly and smash a door or something.In that moment you did not give a crap...just..exploded.

Here is a clip where he goes into the Golgi tendon and muscle spindles and how they stretch...starts off about rooting and pushing hands,,,but stick with it.There are about 8 other parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnRIHIQ90NI


Edited by matxtx (09/28/07 01:58 PM)
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#361457 - 09/28/07 01:56 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
matxtx Offline
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Posts: 700
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Quote:

matxtx
Quote:



Like has been mentioned...the startle reflex can give speed and power.Jumping the shot in.Or what he calls emergency minset.The intent and emotion exploding in your head in that instant.This helps stretch the muscles spindles.Its better to use these spindles than the golgi tendon,which is normaly used if you think too much and will act as an inhibiter to stop your muscles hurting.




My thoughts.
I seem to remember having read about the use of the startle reflex in the book of five rings? I think the swordsman had totaly re-trained his natural reactions.
Either way. My experience of people being startled is they jump back and away from what ever it is that startled them.

That would seem to be logical. So would that mean your training was aimed at reacting with some form of attack if startled?




Quote:


ashe_higgs
WTF?

you don't use the "golgi tendon". there is no golgi tendon. there is a golgi tendon organ, but you can't consciously control or use it, it's part of the sympathetic nervous system, a reflex organ.
so you're only half right.

wiki




Interesting reading.

Jude.




No.You dont just react.You use it to strike or anything.In fact if you get it you can use it everwhere and speed everything up.Connecting it to being startled is just a way in to understand what our body can do.It CAN move fast.Now its a case of getting a handle on it and knowingly using it.
And its not a big jump or anything of a few feet or whatever.Very subtle.

At about 2.mins 45 in this clip he breifly mentions and demonstrates using the startle reflex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTGNfZNI5CM
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#361458 - 09/29/07 11:42 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: matxtx]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Loc: phoenix
Quote:

If you were in a fire and had to get through a door to get to your child,it would be an emergency.You would just smash the FFing thing down matter how.You explode.Biochemicaly you would be using muscle spindles.
If everything was calm and you had to smash the same door down it would be different.Your brain would feed your body differently ,your body would not want you to be hurt.Different mindset.
Its like mothers who lift cars to pull a child out.Not stupidly over their heads,just enough.Thats emergency mindset.




i'm not a kineseologist... yet, so i'm going to have to look into it further. but right off the top of my head i'd say it sounds like muddy science.

essentially he's talking about putting the muscle on stretch to store up that elastic energy, but the way he was trying to present the material was nearly incomprehensible.

i subscribe to his videos and i kinda feel that way about a lot of his stuff. i know he's really good at what he does, but i think he's terrible at explaining it.

i usually just like to watch the way he moves and try to block out what he's saying!
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#361459 - 09/29/07 01:54 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: ashe_higgs]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

If you were in a fire and had to get through a door to get to your child,it would be an emergency.You would just smash the FFing thing down matter how.You explode.Biochemicaly you would be using muscle spindles.
If everything was calm and you had to smash the same door down it would be different.Your brain would feed your body differently ,your body would not want you to be hurt.Different mindset.
Its like mothers who lift cars to pull a child out.Not stupidly over their heads,just enough.Thats emergency mindset.




i'm not a kineseologist... yet, so i'm going to have to look into it further. but right off the top of my head i'd say it sounds like muddy science.

essentially he's talking about putting the muscle on stretch to store up that elastic energy, but the way he was trying to present the material was nearly incomprehensible.

i subscribe to his videos and i kinda feel that way about a lot of his stuff. i know he's really good at what he does, but i think he's terrible at explaining it.

i usually just like to watch the way he moves and try to block out what he's saying!






I think I tend to agree. I have just been watching his videos. Some things are simular to the way I like to train. Somethings wouldnt feel right for me as in one of stances being top heavy, on the toes with the chance of someone doing a take down. Any way that is only my preference.

I have read about people doing fantastic things such as mothers lifting cars etc but I have never seen such things so I am sceptical. I follow the thought pattern on adrenalin being used to mask pain and increase performance but after the adrenalin out put then its the feeling of being totaly tired.

I have felt certain mindsets when under pressure either in organised full contact fighting, sparring or training but I would guess that is human primeveal programming of which I cant explain

I still dont fully understand what he is saying on the vidoe
but maybe one day.

Jude

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#361460 - 09/30/07 01:15 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
one of my big problems with forums is terminology. it seems like no two MA's use the same terms - which is understandable, but makes communication a challenge.


stand in front of an opponent fairly close: if you extended an arm like a punch, your elbow would be near his ear.
now, bend your extended arm so your forearm is about 30cm/1ft away from the side of his neck. freeze there for a sec.

from that still position, can you use hip generated whipping power? can you chamber then strike before getting hit? what method of power gen do you have? {leading, retorical question}

lets forget about the circumstances of how you got there. the hypothetical situation is that at a single point in time, you have an arm a fairly short distance to a target, you sense an opening to strike a target, and you are in close.

what are your body mechanics involved to maximize power in that hypothetical?

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#361461 - 09/30/07 04:17 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

one of my big problems with forums is terminology. it seems like no two MA's use the same terms - which is understandable, but makes communication a challenge.


stand in front of an opponent fairly close: if you extended an arm like a punch, your elbow would be near his ear.
now, bend your extended arm so your forearm is about 30cm/1ft away from the side of his neck. freeze there for a sec.

from that still position, can you use hip generated whipping power? can you chamber then strike before getting hit? what method of power gen do you have? {leading, retorical question}

lets forget about the circumstances of how you got there. the hypothetical situation is that at a single point in time, you have an arm a fairly short distance to a target, you sense an opening to strike a target, and you are in close.

what are your body mechanics involved to maximize power in that hypothetical?





The transfer of weight to the side of the body that is used for striking at the same time as elbow extention and the hip/ shoulder pushed forward towards the target. All done as fast/explosive as possable. No chambering. Striking through the target.

Jude

The above is hypothetical because
I must admit its the kind of hand distance/ body position I dont normaly use or train. The short power shots is when I am in close therefore the hands are closer to my body and I would try to use momentum.

I Dislike trying to analise what I do. It makes me see flaws.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (09/30/07 04:22 AM)

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#361462 - 09/30/07 09:34 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: ashe_higgs]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Yea it can be hard to understand, though it is just proven physiology.Worth checking out.
Its cool if its not for everone.I find it fascinating.And its improved me.
No offence,though of the top of your head it might be muddy science? Maybe, though,he has been doing this stuff for alot of years.lol.
Also he can talk it AND walk it.He can show you and demonstrate it and attempt to tell you.Its best realy ,if possible,to go to a session of his.Feel it ,see it.

Remember too that he says question everything, look into it rather taking it as so.
And also its just a way in to understand what the body can do.How it works deep down.To me,this is real internal martial arts.Then to get a handle on it and harness it,if possible.
Its proven what people do in emergencys or in rage.And how much influence the mind has on the body.It can trick it.It CAN do it.Its just a case of how? and why? and Can it be recreated?.Preferably,for us,within strikes.

''i usually just like to watch the way he moves and try to block out what he's saying! ''

Lol.Yea.I get you.Though its interesting because he says its better to close your eyes and listen to what he is saying not to watch.To try to get it internaly and not become a clone by copying.

Its cool if its not for everone.I find it fascinating.


Edited by matxtx (09/30/07 10:04 AM)

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#361463 - 09/30/07 09:45 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
matxtx Offline
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Posts: 700
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''Somethings wouldnt feel right for me as in one of stances being top heavy, on the toes with the chance of someone doing a take down. Any way that is only my preference''

If its personal preference thats cool though the stance he advises and shows,and he can be seen going over it on youtube,takes into account grappling and striking and is evolved from the idea of grappling with striking and striking with grappling.No offence,maybe you dont quite understand the stance.
Just wanted to make that point.Cheers.
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I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#361464 - 09/30/07 11:16 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: matxtx]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

''Somethings wouldnt feel right for me as in one of stances being top heavy, on the toes with the chance of someone doing a take down. Any way that is only my preference''

If its personal preference thats cool though the stance he advises and shows,and he can be seen going over it on youtube,takes into account grappling and striking and is evolved from the idea of grappling with striking and striking with grappling.No offence,maybe you dont quite understand the stance.
Just wanted to make that point.Cheers.




Hi, no offence taken. I think I understand the stance.
My preference is for flat footed more stable lower limb striking. Either way its going somewhat off topic so
about Ed's question maybe?

Jude

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#361465 - 09/30/07 04:24 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I think development of power is also a personal thing. Meaning that the most effective way to develop short range power can vary depending on a person's physical and mental attributes. Due to this I think the first place we should start is asking who in this discussion has explosive short range power. Who here can drop opponents with striking in close using whatever method you use to develop fighting skill?
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#361466 - 09/30/07 07:04 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I think development of power is also a personal thing. Meaning that the most effective way to develop short range power can vary depending on a person's physical and mental attributes. Due to this I think the first place we should start is asking who in this discussion has explosive short range power. Who here can drop opponents with striking in close using whatever method you use to develop fighting skill?




If I caught any of my opponents clean during a full contact bout (or if I were attacked) while in close or used my elbows to bludgeon an opening then caught them.
It would be safe to say they would be going down. If I get caught on the chin with a realy hard shot then I am going down.
One of the reasons I try to protect my chin and my hands and arms are up and close.


My methods of training. What I am working on;

Weight training including heavy weights.

Drilling so there is as little telegraphing as I can get. (It seems to be getting less on good days)

Working on striking behind my closed gaurd. (ditto as above)

My chin down. (same)

Quickly going back to a gaurd after striking.(same)

Makiwari and heavy bag training bare knuckle .

Making sure my stance/ legs are strong and stable and the power is coming up from my legs/hips shoulders although sometimes it doesnt go as per planned. Still has chambering at time.

Realy working on getting angles. Thats the hard bit.

Still in the get it all as correct as I can stage at the moment.

Still working on stand up grappling/dirty boxing at close range.

Still trying to get information on rooting as per the internal arts.

Jude.


Edited by jude33 (09/30/07 07:35 PM)

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#361467 - 09/30/07 07:54 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
[quoteIf I caught any of my opponents clean during a full contact bout (or if I were attacked) while in close or used my elbows to bludgeon an opening then caught them.
It would be safe to say they would be going down. If I get caught on the chin with a realy hard shot then I am going down.




Ifs are good, however, anyone who practices martial arts can state the same ifs. However, I know all cannot because I have met many who couldn't and can't. So the question is not IF but rather of WHEN. I would like to know who knows they have good in close power because they have dropped people constently in close with a single technique. Not just one time, but consistently because that represents a technique that will work reliably due to developed skill and not blind luck. In addition I am also talking about body shots as well as head shots. I believe effective power applies to dropping opponents with both.
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#361468 - 09/30/07 08:37 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

[quoteIf I caught any of my opponents clean during a full contact bout (or if I were attacked) while in close or used my elbows to bludgeon an opening then caught them.
It would be safe to say they would be going down. If I get caught on the chin with a realy hard shot then I am going down.




Ifs are good, however, anyone who practices martial arts can state the same ifs. However, I know all cannot because I have met many who couldn't and can't. So the question is not IF but rather of WHEN. I would like to know who knows they have good in close power because they have dropped people constently in close with a single technique. Not just one time, but consistently because that represents a technique that will work reliably due to developed skill and not blind luck. In addition I am also talking about body shots as well as head shots. I believe effective power applies to dropping opponents with both.




HI Med.

Ok.

When during a full contact bout or if I were/when I was attacked and I connected in close then in most cases they went down but my experience is connecting in close against some one who is doing the same to me, it isnt easy.
Is it due to a limited developed skill or just blind luck?
More than likely both.
But there again in a few cases I went down.
Was what they did a developed skill?, me making mistakes? or blind luck?
More than likely all three.
Why? I dont know I am still working it out.

Regards the use of an aquired technique/ skill that constantly knocks people out in close? .
Answer
I dont know.I am no where near any kind of champion level with out that amount of fights.



So roughly that is me. Can I aks you about your methods Med?
How do you deal with power shots in close. And your opponents?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (09/30/07 09:04 PM)

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#361469 - 09/30/07 09:00 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I wrote about the basics earlier in this thread. Is there more specific info you want me to state?
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#361470 - 09/30/07 09:24 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hip torque/koshi twisting, sinking or rising,




I understand the twisting part but the rising and sinking part? Some thing Im not to sure on.
Quote:


well developed base, forward thrust of hip/koshi/bodyweight, and relaxation are all key. However, I have learned one of the most important principles is also the way to develop whipping power. Yes strike from whatever position your hand is in, however, the key is that your hand follows your hip and not the other way around. Hips move hand stays until hips stop, then hand explodes out. Acutally, this is why chambered striking in jigotai(horse stance) is good. It really teaches this principle. Along with a few others. This is a way to develop explosive short range stopping power.




Ok that is the way you develop power. I try to get as much whipping power but sometimes its just pure bludgeoning. What gaurd do you use? Do you move around your opponent?
I try to get behind them or at least to their outside left/blind side side. Do you use trapping?

This could on but I suppose the specific question was of power generation. But wouldnt it all lead to the same thing?
Movement block strike hammer down the opponents left hand/arm getting to the blind side to strike with a left hook/palm heel/ left elbow to the face? Right hand to the left ribs?
Stomping to the knees.

Could go one.

Jude



Which techniques have you used on a live opponent?

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#361471 - 10/01/07 12:27 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
It seems you are discussing more how to close the distance and/or set up your opponent. For me I either use defense or attacking combined with footwork to close the distance. When I use defense I generally use elbow destructions and tai sabaki to deflect strikes and crash through my opponent's guard and clinch with him. I'll parry the first strike and use an elbow destruction on the second. However, my parrying hand follows the strike it deflected back to its source to establish a good position. As I establish a dominant clinch position I like to soften him up with leg/knee techniques to the thigh/legs. Sometimes you can put a guy down with this and sometimes not, however, it is sufficient distraction/damaging to to use hand techniques in close to set up a takedown or to shift to a 90 degree angle to my opponent for better strikes or knees to the face. However, in close in the clinch I find that my knee strikes are my most effective weapons for KOs. I use my elbows when entering or exiting the clinch. In order to utilize the full power of my hand techniques I need to utilize my body weight in my waza. Therefore, if I am trying to KO a guy with my fists/open hands I don't like to get too tied up. Therefore, I use them in a similar way to that of my elbow striking in that I use them to cause damage as I am entering into close range. However, I am not necessarily entering to clinch but just to strike.

A lot of people protect their heads well. Therefore I like to strike to the head first to use their defense against them. Its pretty simple really. When striking you should change striking levels. Go high, low, high or high, high, low, etc. As you are striking you are also closing distance. Think the straight and over hand strikes of pinan/fyukyugata kata as closing distance and the short range strikes of Naihanchi once inside. If you don't put your opponent down with the strikes you will hopefully damange them enough to either finish them off in the clinch, get the takedown/throw, or reestablish the free striking position to either flee or continue the attack. As far as my guard I use the kamae at the opening of rohai. Hands high the level of my face, elbows in, and hands open. If I am feeling cocky I use the Philly Shell, but that's more street fighting stuff I got growing up in St. Louis which I adapted to my karate fighting/sparring when I began taking karate as an adolescent. However, it comes in handy at times as a change of pace.

As for rising and sinking its not all that complex. When you throw body shots from an upright position you don't aim your fist down, you drop your center. It can act as a method of slipping a strike. By dropping as you strike you are using gravity to add body weight to your waza without necessarily moving forward, but you can move forward as you do. If you are already in a position where your knees are bent then you can simply extend them as you strike. This is rising power. This is the extra simple explaination. There is a little more going on, but that is the gist of it. In Shorin Ryu you learn these lessons from day one in basics and kata training.

As far as live opponents I have used body shots such as straight punches, hooks/shovel hooks, knee strikes to the head, body, outside of thigh, uppercuts to the face, open hand palm strikes to the head and face, hooks to the temple and jaw, and maybe a few others I can't think of right now all as KO shots in live full contact sparring. By KO I mean the opponent was on the ground in pain holding the part of their anatomy that I hit or doubled over in pain. Again, this is the close in stuff I used, not the longer range stuff. In training I continue on after I put my opponent down, but not full contact because there is not point in injuring training partners further in training.
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#361472 - 10/01/07 09:54 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Nice post, med. Thanks for the detail. Refreshing to see a good technical read here.
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#361473 - 10/01/07 10:27 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Thanks Med.
Thought provoking.
I will read, re-read, breakdown and analise what you have written.

Jude.

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#361474 - 02/23/08 09:20 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
renato Offline
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Posts: 3
Sink your hips. Use your DanTian, your center of gravity three fingers below your navel, and let the power spiral from your DanTian. It's all in the waist. It moves through your hips to spiral down your chosen ligament.

It has the power of a dog shaking himself off when his wet. Loose and involving your entire body, each joint twisting, directing your force.

FaJin!

Tai Chi makes your realise that the human body is the perfect killing machine. Sounds sick but it's true. Thank Hashem that nobody knows about it!

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