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#361455 - 09/28/07 09:37 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: ashe_higgs]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
matxtx
Quote:



Like has been mentioned...the startle reflex can give speed and power.Jumping the shot in.Or what he calls emergency minset.The intent and emotion exploding in your head in that instant.This helps stretch the muscles spindles.Its better to use these spindles than the golgi tendon,which is normaly used if you think too much and will act as an inhibiter to stop your muscles hurting.




My thoughts.
I seem to remember having read about the use of the startle reflex in the book of five rings? I think the swordsman had totaly re-trained his natural reactions.
Either way. My experience of people being startled is they jump back and away from what ever it is that startled them.

That would seem to be logical. So would that mean your training was aimed at reacting with some form of attack if startled?




Quote:


ashe_higgs
WTF?

you don't use the "golgi tendon". there is no golgi tendon. there is a golgi tendon organ, but you can't consciously control or use it, it's part of the sympathetic nervous system, a reflex organ.
so you're only half right.

wiki




Interesting reading.

Jude.


Edited by jude33 (09/28/07 09:41 AM)

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#361456 - 09/28/07 01:41 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: ashe_higgs]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

Quote:


Like has been mentioned...the startle reflex can give speed and power.Jumping the shot in.Or what he calls emergency minset.The intent and emotion exploding in your head in that instant.This helps stretch the muscles spindles.Its better to use these spindles than the golgi tendon,which is normaly used if you think too much and will act as an inhibiter to stop your muscles hurting.




WTF?

you don't use the "golgi tendon". there is no golgi tendon. there is a golgi tendon organ, but you can't consciously control or use it, it's part of the sympathetic nervous system, a reflex organ.
so you're only half right.

wiki




Like I said,im still getting my head around it myself,lol.It is better to see what Steve Morris himself says and demonstrates and to maybe look into how the body works.
As far as I understand it at the minute is this....first I did not mean you controll it in the way I think you though I meant.
If you were in a fire and had to get through a door to get to your child,it would be an emergency.You would just smash the FFing thing down matter how.You explode.Biochemicaly you would be using muscle spindles.
If everything was calm and you had to smash the same door down it would be different.Your brain would feed your body differently ,your body would not want you to be hurt.Different mindset.
Its like mothers who lift cars to pull a child out.Not stupidly over their heads,just enough.Thats emergency mindset.
Or if you lash out in anger or get hurt suddenly and smash a door or something.In that moment you did not give a crap...just..exploded.

Here is a clip where he goes into the Golgi tendon and muscle spindles and how they stretch...starts off about rooting and pushing hands,,,but stick with it.There are about 8 other parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnRIHIQ90NI


Edited by matxtx (09/28/07 01:58 PM)
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#361457 - 09/28/07 01:56 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

matxtx
Quote:



Like has been mentioned...the startle reflex can give speed and power.Jumping the shot in.Or what he calls emergency minset.The intent and emotion exploding in your head in that instant.This helps stretch the muscles spindles.Its better to use these spindles than the golgi tendon,which is normaly used if you think too much and will act as an inhibiter to stop your muscles hurting.




My thoughts.
I seem to remember having read about the use of the startle reflex in the book of five rings? I think the swordsman had totaly re-trained his natural reactions.
Either way. My experience of people being startled is they jump back and away from what ever it is that startled them.

That would seem to be logical. So would that mean your training was aimed at reacting with some form of attack if startled?




Quote:


ashe_higgs
WTF?

you don't use the "golgi tendon". there is no golgi tendon. there is a golgi tendon organ, but you can't consciously control or use it, it's part of the sympathetic nervous system, a reflex organ.
so you're only half right.

wiki




Interesting reading.

Jude.




No.You dont just react.You use it to strike or anything.In fact if you get it you can use it everwhere and speed everything up.Connecting it to being startled is just a way in to understand what our body can do.It CAN move fast.Now its a case of getting a handle on it and knowingly using it.
And its not a big jump or anything of a few feet or whatever.Very subtle.

At about 2.mins 45 in this clip he breifly mentions and demonstrates using the startle reflex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTGNfZNI5CM
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#361458 - 09/29/07 11:42 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: matxtx]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:

If you were in a fire and had to get through a door to get to your child,it would be an emergency.You would just smash the FFing thing down matter how.You explode.Biochemicaly you would be using muscle spindles.
If everything was calm and you had to smash the same door down it would be different.Your brain would feed your body differently ,your body would not want you to be hurt.Different mindset.
Its like mothers who lift cars to pull a child out.Not stupidly over their heads,just enough.Thats emergency mindset.




i'm not a kineseologist... yet, so i'm going to have to look into it further. but right off the top of my head i'd say it sounds like muddy science.

essentially he's talking about putting the muscle on stretch to store up that elastic energy, but the way he was trying to present the material was nearly incomprehensible.

i subscribe to his videos and i kinda feel that way about a lot of his stuff. i know he's really good at what he does, but i think he's terrible at explaining it.

i usually just like to watch the way he moves and try to block out what he's saying!
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#361459 - 09/29/07 01:54 PM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: ashe_higgs]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

If you were in a fire and had to get through a door to get to your child,it would be an emergency.You would just smash the FFing thing down matter how.You explode.Biochemicaly you would be using muscle spindles.
If everything was calm and you had to smash the same door down it would be different.Your brain would feed your body differently ,your body would not want you to be hurt.Different mindset.
Its like mothers who lift cars to pull a child out.Not stupidly over their heads,just enough.Thats emergency mindset.




i'm not a kineseologist... yet, so i'm going to have to look into it further. but right off the top of my head i'd say it sounds like muddy science.

essentially he's talking about putting the muscle on stretch to store up that elastic energy, but the way he was trying to present the material was nearly incomprehensible.

i subscribe to his videos and i kinda feel that way about a lot of his stuff. i know he's really good at what he does, but i think he's terrible at explaining it.

i usually just like to watch the way he moves and try to block out what he's saying!






I think I tend to agree. I have just been watching his videos. Some things are simular to the way I like to train. Somethings wouldnt feel right for me as in one of stances being top heavy, on the toes with the chance of someone doing a take down. Any way that is only my preference.

I have read about people doing fantastic things such as mothers lifting cars etc but I have never seen such things so I am sceptical. I follow the thought pattern on adrenalin being used to mask pain and increase performance but after the adrenalin out put then its the feeling of being totaly tired.

I have felt certain mindsets when under pressure either in organised full contact fighting, sparring or training but I would guess that is human primeveal programming of which I cant explain

I still dont fully understand what he is saying on the vidoe
but maybe one day.

Jude

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#361460 - 09/30/07 01:15 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
one of my big problems with forums is terminology. it seems like no two MA's use the same terms - which is understandable, but makes communication a challenge.


stand in front of an opponent fairly close: if you extended an arm like a punch, your elbow would be near his ear.
now, bend your extended arm so your forearm is about 30cm/1ft away from the side of his neck. freeze there for a sec.

from that still position, can you use hip generated whipping power? can you chamber then strike before getting hit? what method of power gen do you have? {leading, retorical question}

lets forget about the circumstances of how you got there. the hypothetical situation is that at a single point in time, you have an arm a fairly short distance to a target, you sense an opening to strike a target, and you are in close.

what are your body mechanics involved to maximize power in that hypothetical?

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#361461 - 09/30/07 04:17 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

one of my big problems with forums is terminology. it seems like no two MA's use the same terms - which is understandable, but makes communication a challenge.


stand in front of an opponent fairly close: if you extended an arm like a punch, your elbow would be near his ear.
now, bend your extended arm so your forearm is about 30cm/1ft away from the side of his neck. freeze there for a sec.

from that still position, can you use hip generated whipping power? can you chamber then strike before getting hit? what method of power gen do you have? {leading, retorical question}

lets forget about the circumstances of how you got there. the hypothetical situation is that at a single point in time, you have an arm a fairly short distance to a target, you sense an opening to strike a target, and you are in close.

what are your body mechanics involved to maximize power in that hypothetical?





The transfer of weight to the side of the body that is used for striking at the same time as elbow extention and the hip/ shoulder pushed forward towards the target. All done as fast/explosive as possable. No chambering. Striking through the target.

Jude

The above is hypothetical because
I must admit its the kind of hand distance/ body position I dont normaly use or train. The short power shots is when I am in close therefore the hands are closer to my body and I would try to use momentum.

I Dislike trying to analise what I do. It makes me see flaws.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (09/30/07 04:22 AM)

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#361462 - 09/30/07 09:34 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: ashe_higgs]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Yea it can be hard to understand, though it is just proven physiology.Worth checking out.
Its cool if its not for everone.I find it fascinating.And its improved me.
No offence,though of the top of your head it might be muddy science? Maybe, though,he has been doing this stuff for alot of years.lol.
Also he can talk it AND walk it.He can show you and demonstrate it and attempt to tell you.Its best realy ,if possible,to go to a session of his.Feel it ,see it.

Remember too that he says question everything, look into it rather taking it as so.
And also its just a way in to understand what the body can do.How it works deep down.To me,this is real internal martial arts.Then to get a handle on it and harness it,if possible.
Its proven what people do in emergencys or in rage.And how much influence the mind has on the body.It can trick it.It CAN do it.Its just a case of how? and why? and Can it be recreated?.Preferably,for us,within strikes.

''i usually just like to watch the way he moves and try to block out what he's saying! ''

Lol.Yea.I get you.Though its interesting because he says its better to close your eyes and listen to what he is saying not to watch.To try to get it internaly and not become a clone by copying.

Its cool if its not for everone.I find it fascinating.


Edited by matxtx (09/30/07 10:04 AM)

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#361463 - 09/30/07 09:45 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: jude33]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
''Somethings wouldnt feel right for me as in one of stances being top heavy, on the toes with the chance of someone doing a take down. Any way that is only my preference''

If its personal preference thats cool though the stance he advises and shows,and he can be seen going over it on youtube,takes into account grappling and striking and is evolved from the idea of grappling with striking and striking with grappling.No offence,maybe you dont quite understand the stance.
Just wanted to make that point.Cheers.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#361464 - 09/30/07 11:16 AM Re: methods for developing short-range power [Re: matxtx]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

''Somethings wouldnt feel right for me as in one of stances being top heavy, on the toes with the chance of someone doing a take down. Any way that is only my preference''

If its personal preference thats cool though the stance he advises and shows,and he can be seen going over it on youtube,takes into account grappling and striking and is evolved from the idea of grappling with striking and striking with grappling.No offence,maybe you dont quite understand the stance.
Just wanted to make that point.Cheers.




Hi, no offence taken. I think I understand the stance.
My preference is for flat footed more stable lower limb striking. Either way its going somewhat off topic so
about Ed's question maybe?

Jude

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