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#361008 - 09/14/07 10:55 PM Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
I came across this style and I am unfamiliar with it.. anyone else have any info on it? google gives me very little.
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#361009 - 09/14/07 11:53 PM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: fatguy]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Is that the actual name or are you spelling it phonetically?

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#361010 - 09/15/07 04:10 AM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: iaibear]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Seems like a simple misreading of "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu".

"Choku" is an on reading for the kanji "straight away/honesty", as are "jiki" and "jika". Possibly someone read the kanji as "chokuden" instead of "jikiden". If you look in a japanese dictionary for the kanji combination jiki/choku-den (wishi I could type kanji here, they get auto-converted to character entities), you will find that the reading is in fact "jikiden".

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#361011 - 09/15/07 07:15 AM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: splice]
fatguy Offline
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Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
I found the term HERE. I didnt know that "choku" meant the same as "jiki", so maybe it is just a different way of saying muso jikiden eishin ryu.
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#361012 - 09/15/07 08:52 AM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: fatguy]
Charles Mahan Offline
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
If I understand my Kanji reading rules, which is not an absolute certainty, it's not a "different" reading of Jikiden. It's an incorrect reading. The kind of thing that can happen when someone see some kanji and looks up each kanji individually and reassembles the translations into words.
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#361013 - 09/15/07 01:40 PM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: Charles Mahan]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Seconding Charles. Otherwise "oo-katana" would be another way to say "daito" and "kogaddo" would be one of many ways to say "iaido".

There is but one way to read the combination of kanji in the style name, and it definitely is "jikiden".

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#361014 - 09/16/07 07:35 AM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: splice]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
Interesting. I know nothing about kanji so please enlighten me. How is it that two kanji words can mean the same thing, but not be synonyms?
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#361015 - 09/16/07 10:27 AM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: fatguy]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Because "Chokuden" is not a word. "Choku" is one possible pronounciation of the first kanji in the word "jikiden", but when you combine it with the second kanji "den" you pronounce it "Jiki" instead of "choku". You're going to have to find someone who speaks better Japanese than I to tell you why.

Did a little more digging and found the following:
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji#When_to_use_which_reading

Quote:

When to use which reading
Words for similar concepts, such as "east" (東), "north" (北) and "northeast" (北東), can have completely different pronunciations: the kun readings higashi and kita are used for the first two, while the on reading hokutō is used for the third.

The rule of thumb for determining the pronunciation of a particular kanji in a given context is that kanji occurring in compounds are generally read using on'yomi. Such compounds are called jukugo (熟語) in Japanese. For example, 情報 jōhō "information", 学校 gakkō "school", and 新幹線 shinkansen "bullet train" all follow this pattern.


Kanji occurring in isolation -- that is, written adjacent only to kana, not to other kanji -- are typically read using their kun'yomi. Together with their okurigana, if any, they generally function either as a noun or as an inflected adjective or verb: e.g. 月 tsuki "moon", 情け nasake "sympathy", 赤い akai "red" (adj), 新しい atarashii "new ", 見る miru "(to) see".





My apologies for the munching of the kana and kanji in that quote. Check the link for the actual text.

So you would use the on-yomi reading of the charact. There are three On-yomi readings for that character For this particular word, we use jiki. Choku is one of the kun-yomi readings for this word.

Not sure if that helps or just confuses the issue more.


Edited by Charles Mahan (09/16/07 10:48 AM)
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#361016 - 09/16/07 12:32 PM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: Charles Mahan]
fatguy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 146
Quote:

Not sure if that helps or just confuses the issue more.




lol a little of both. I understand what your saying thanks to you and the link, but I'm pretty fuzzy as to why they would do that. But since I was just asking why it didnt work, im satisfied.

If I understand it correctly its like the words "the" and "me" when you put em together its "theme"; pronounced "Theem" not "the-me".... except they confuse it even more than I already have.


Edited by fatguy (09/16/07 12:36 PM)
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#361017 - 09/17/07 03:53 PM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: fatguy]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
OK, so it's a bit like english. There are a lot of ways of describing cold, right? Cold, ice, freeze, frost, etc. But when someone is very cold and part of their hands or feet freeze, we call that frostbite. You could say freezebite, coldbite, icechomp, but those aren't the "right" way of saying it. The word is frostbite, even if there are other ways of saying "frost" or "bite".

In a similar way, in Japanese, combinations of kanji have different but specific readings. The combination of characters "choku/jiki/jika/tada/nao" and "den/tsuta/tsute" is read "jikiden", just as the combination in english of the concepts "cold/ice/frost" and "bite/chomp" is always "frostbite".

Not exactly the same concept, but maybe close enough to make sense? As far as who decides how new words are made up and what readings they use, that I don't know. I just look stuff up in the dictionary.

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#361018 - 09/17/07 09:15 PM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: splice]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Thanks Splice. That was a somewhat better explanation than mine.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#361019 - 09/18/07 08:28 AM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: splice]
Borrek Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 501
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
I would formally like to welcome "icechomp" into my vocabulary. I think it is here to stay!!

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#361020 - 09/18/07 10:37 AM Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu [Re: Borrek]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< just as the combination in english of the concepts "cold/ice/frost" and "bite/chomp" is always "frostbite". >>

unless it's "coldsnap".

Sorry. Couldn't resist.


Edited by iaibear (09/18/07 10:38 AM)

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