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#360918 - 09/14/07 04:05 PM Are the snap technique of old Karate useless?
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? When I was training these technqiues were as popular as the Komi, now with the use of padded sparring mitts you don't see them much. Here in the USA we want to knock or push things away rather then drop them right there. Techniques like the snap punches, strikes, back kick done close or even the mae-age-geri and others. Even the riken-uchi in mitts is done most/sometimes clubbing instead of snapping. These close in techniques use to be part of training now looking at some of the competition dojos they are fading, striking difference (forgive my pun) in the Combat schools/dojos they still are trained and used properly, being alot of the kumite is ungloved and continuous.

Have anybody noticed this? Can you give an explaination of why? Or do you think its a good change?? Or is it just me being too cricitcal of some tourney techiniques again? You haven't noticed it?
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#360919 - 09/14/07 04:09 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
Spade Offline
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
In Isshinryu I train in snap kicks/punches.

The use of gloves/padding really diminish the effects of snap punches, since they rely on minimum surface area.
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#360920 - 09/14/07 04:23 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I think the real question is whether any old technique is worthless?

Of course the answers is if you can make it work it's fine.

The rise of sport karate, while having its own positive values, does diminish the original use of many techniques.

I'm not sure snap is the correct terminology for I think its more you strike and release your elbow which allows rapid retraction of the strike. This is used in several Okinawan systems, which use turning and vertical strikes.

While I use an entire range of striking from many systems, I prefer my original vertical Isshinryu striking. BTW it can be done a number of different ways including thrusting with the strike.

As for what 'modern' schools do I really don't spend my time cataloging them.

pleasantly,
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#360921 - 09/14/07 05:06 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
Ironfoot Offline
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I hope not, because after this many years I can't get used to punching any other way!
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#360922 - 09/14/07 05:26 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Neko

I think you already called it--the padded sparring mits and the prevelence of "open tournament" style sparring has seriously effected the training and techinques in many schools.

Its not that they are "useless" its they don't have much in common with winning open tournaments that has become the focus of many people and schools.

Its weird really---once the most common reason for taking martial arts was because you had been beaten up and wanted to learn how to protect yourself better.
Now many of the people taking martial arts have never been in a fistfight in their lives--so they have almost no personal experince to compare their training with.
So they all to often equate "open tournament" to "real world" skills.

NOT saying that you need to go out and get into fights---just pointing out that if you have never been in one and "open tournaments" are the only venue you have to gauge the effectivness of your training---then you might just be making/coming to some seriously erronous conclusions.

(my use of the term "you" DOES NOT mean "YOU" personally of course--just a figure of speech. )

Then you add that to the every decreasing age of the "average" martial arts student----teaching little kids to really focus hard penetrating blows is kinda dangerous.
And the point with them often much less real world skills and much more "day care karate" so again, there is less precieved need for devlopeing really good skills.


Like I said, I think you already hit the nail on thhe head in your first post----the "Combat" schools still use and teach them and find them valuable.
The "open tournament" bunch does not.

Pretty much enough said as far as I'm concerned.


Edited by cxt (09/14/07 05:28 PM)
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#360923 - 09/14/07 07:37 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Neko, my man, you have asked an intelligent question...

The answer lies in what you're trying to accomplish with your technique, and in what venue you're using them. I have to agree with Victor on that.

"Snap" techniques in karate are used to deliver both force and vibration (if they're done right). They are markedly faster than "thrust" techniques, and used for entirely different purposes. Speed and accuracy combine to make many of the old Dim Mak techniques what they are, and the vibration of a snap technique is what "develops the effect" of the strike. Like a boxing jab at the "sweet spot" on the jaw will knock somebody out, there are places all over the body that are affected by snap techniques, with just as debilitating an effect as the boxer's jab. A thrust kick or "driving punch" on the same place would hurt like hell, but not have the same effect... much like a "whiplash" occurring in a car accident. It might take a moment to develop, but it's definitely damaging.

I was once attacked by a guy with a claw hammer. I front snap kicked him in the solar plexus, and dropped him like a stone. I've kicked other people with thrusts in the same area, and while it knocked them backward, they came right back for more... so I trust the "snap" techniques to protect me.

As a mechanical designer (by training), I deal with force all the time. Force is mass (essentially, weight) multiplied by it's acceleration, which is defined as the speed from rest to "full speed". The formula is F=ma, and the shock power generated depends on the "residence time" the "hitting device" (fist or foot) stays in contact with the target (at full force delivery). That "contact time" also generates a vibration wave that either works to dissipate the force, or amplify it, depending on how it's contained.

In breaking, snap techniques might not break the entire stack of wood or tiles, but it would break the ones on the bottom, with less force applied (from vibration). The thrust techniques would deliver more force, and break things from the contact point "through" the objects.

"Padding" up to do kumite erases a lot of the effect of snapping techniques, although not entirely, and most of the kumite I've seen and done with pads on depend on something that is more "medium speed" types of techniques than high speed ones, which the "snap" techniques are.

Since karate is a "force delivery art", padding up to do your sparring is an open invitation to use more thrusting types of techniques so you deliver force more effectively through the pads. As both Victor and I have said, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish with your technique, and the actual venue you're in using your technique. My snap kick was being used to keep me from getting killed...

FWIW

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#360924 - 09/14/07 08:24 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: wristtwister]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

In breaking, snap techniques might not break the entire stack of wood or tiles, but it would break the ones on the bottom, with less force applied (from vibration). The thrust techniques would deliver more force, and break things from the contact point "through" the objects.




Reminds me of my test for green belt over 15 years ago. I had to break two boards. The one on top did not break bu the second one did. I thought I had messed up so I punched a second time and broke the first. My holder said I should have turned to the judges and said, "Oh, did you want me to break them both?"
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#360925 - 09/14/07 09:21 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Are the snap technique of old Karate useless?


it's not a question of 'old' karate or new...it's a question of doing them correctly or not. if you do them incorrectly, then they aren't any better than someone with no training.


first, the reason why it comes off as a push instead of shock, in physics, is because people use the wrong formula.

Force = mass x acceleration is a 'push' formula.

the formula for shock, is Impulse:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse
Impulse = Force with respect to time.

(the time interval over which the force is applied -or- how fast the momentum of an object changes)


to understand the difference in practice, next time you are in front of a heavy bag - instead of front kicking it to see how far you can make it swing, try this instead:

swing the bag away from you, then stop it dead with a front snap kick. thats Impulse: changing the momentum of the bag (from swing to stop) in as short a time as possible.

If you apply that same principle to a bag not swinging, the effect is not a push...instead the bag jumps. thats the result of delivering the shock.

(incidently, delivering shock is what chi-based striking Arts strive for..so that should give a hint into further research as well. )

nothing wrong with a push strike or kick either - just a different tool.
someone with a kick that can deliver shock tends to drop the opponent where they are. the push kick throws the opponent backwards.

for the mechanics of the actual kick that produces that, check out Peter Consterdine's videos/seminars or look for some of the seniors of Kimura Shukokai. also, different technique, but same effect, is some Ashihara schools. or ask Brad and hedkikr here on this forum to explain the mechanics....they kick harder than me.

so it's all about the technique...not the criteria of if it's 'old' or not. I've seen some 'old school' TMAists folk that couldn't kick thru a shoji door.

hope that helps.

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#360926 - 09/14/07 09:30 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Agreed with Grady, et al. Snap techniques are very useful, but much less so with gloves on. As long as you are getting proper weight transfer, target penetration, etc, the snap technique will work very well.
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#360927 - 09/14/07 09:32 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Happy Birthday BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Actually Ed, that didn't help at all. You made me think. . .

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#360928 - 09/14/07 09:32 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Another way to train on the bag is to make it jump instead of swing. Hard to do, but that requires a lot of snap.

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#360929 - 09/14/07 09:35 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
echo?

bushi, brian ...read my post again

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#360930 - 09/14/07 10:58 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I missed that line, Ed. Sorry about that. And I was all excited that after the last several weeks, I finally had something to post in the Karate forum.

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#360931 - 09/14/07 10:59 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Beg to differ with you Ed...
F=MA is a force formula... the "delta t" or "change in time" determines the frequency of the force delivery (I called it "residence time" for people unfamiliar with mechanical engineering) but the "impulse" is the same as the "vibration" I mentioned.

The force delivery can be changed by surface area of delivery (fist shapes = contact surfaces) speed of the technique (punches or kicks) and the amount of "body mass" that is applied . There is also a factor in there for "base" (stance) as the "structure" of the body is essentially mechanical.

Another factor in force delivery is the response of the target...hard things break... softer things tend to absorb the force and distribute it based on their structure... i.e. a punch to the head vs. a punch to the rib cage vs. a punch to the stomach. I could go on and on, with the differing types of force response, but it's a lengthy discussion involving the body structure, striking angles, and contacted surfaces, including joint strikes, strikes to boney surfaces, strikes to "soft parts", vital point strikes... the list goes on and on.

Essentially, however, there are "snap" techniques (shocking power) and "thrusting" techniques (driving power), and they have different methods and mechanics... like there are formula 1 cars and dump trucks. They're both "cars" (for the sake of argument) but they are completely different, even though they work similarly... they have engines, tires, transmissions, etc. and require a driver. You would not, however, mistake either one for the other... as in "snap" vs. "thrusting".

The "swinging bag" test would do well for thrust kicks, but not so much for snap kicks. Their force delivery is also dependent on vibration and frequency, so an "absorber" like a heavy bag wouldn't really be a good measure of snap kicks. They sure do work well on a solar plexus, or a "shell vest", however... , or a "soft tissue" area of the body with an "exposed nerve area".

There are a lot of factors that can be called into play in analyzing the differences, but "snap" vs "thrusting" is ultimately dependent on what you're trying to do, and how you're trying to do it.

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#360932 - 09/14/07 11:02 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Happy Birthday BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Did I miss something.

I just find it difficult when people take something that seems rather simple to me and they explain it out in an essay.

Much better in person...do this!!
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#360933 - 09/14/07 11:53 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Beg to differ with you Ed...



which part do you want me to clear up for you?

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#360934 - 09/14/07 11:55 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yeah, I've been chatty. I gotta learn to pare the posts down. I like your style - to the point then STFU. lol

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#360935 - 09/15/07 12:24 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Happy Birthday BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Truthfully, I'm just jealous because I don't have the technical ability to scientifically explain things in detail like you do.
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#360936 - 09/15/07 01:05 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: BrianS]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Interesting if nothing else. Thanks guys! I would probably explain differently and a littlr bit more in easier terms, but I see your points and they made me think.

The functional problem is that folk don't necessarily understand the personal mechanics as they feel and do them to put the techniques to use with the correct type of snapping motion. Or rather, to get the mechanics down to use them with a powerful snapping action.

But nice read!!!!

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#360937 - 09/15/07 08:06 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: butterfly]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
In this case, "its the singer... and the song". You have to have the skills, and then make the appropriate use of them... hence, a "learning curve". Their "judicious use" are decisions made almost instantly depending on how your kumite is going and the opening that presents itself.

Wordy... but "hit'em when you can with the right technique"...

Just remember... it's never wrong to hit your opponent...

'cept sometimes...

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#360938 - 09/15/07 08:15 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
believe me, you don't need to tell Brad that - he gave me a nice purple ring on my inside theigh from one of his 'snap kicks' last year. good thing it was < 50% power, I would've fell like a sack-a-potatas.

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#360939 - 09/16/07 10:14 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Just looking back at our practice over the last few months, this question makes me realize that we work almost entirely in a "snap" regimen. It's SD dedicated practice, instead of competition, and we don't use padded mitts much.

I think Wristtwister nailed it from our training perspective.

"Speed and accuracy combine to make many of the old Dim Mak techniques what they are, and the vibration of a snap technique is what "develops the effect" of the strike."

We don't specifically puruse that, but looks like we're getting some anyway. I saw it work yesterday morning.

We were working a green new student (my 21 year old son) in a tai sabaki drill with chudan punches. I was explaining that we would gradually pick up the velocity till they began to approach realistic. To demonstrate, I flicked out a snap punch to the gi SURFACE of his solar plexus. It landed on the surface and probably penetrated a quarter inch - max. For all practical purposes it was a "tap". But it was totally unexpected, very fast and it turned out to be perfectly placed.

The result was shocking to him. Huge eyes, hands instantly covered the spot. Then he bent over with incredulous laughter. He wasn't hurt at all, but his description was that it was just a hair away from knocking his wind out.

Reading what Grady wrote above, I begin, now, to put it together. We try hard to do good targeting in practice. I probably just got "lucky" with this one, but... maybe not.

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#360940 - 09/16/07 11:48 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Joss]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with most you that the proper use of these techniques is just another part of the Martial Arts, and a useful part of delievery. Done at the proper time its a devastating technique. The kind that drops them right there rather then knocks them away.

Personally I find the thrusting technique more basic, in that theres less mindset and purpose, now I would say that its just as useful and meaning-ful as the snap.

Granted its hard to do in gloves but possible, the speed of the technique helps in delievery you just have to know that it may just rock him, really the long thrusting shot in gloves in-close waste too much time. When I first started full contact they could hit me 3 to one once inside, when I shorten the punuch (used snap punches) then followed with the power cross, my results were much better even in gloves. So there is some when and how in the gloves.

Out of gloves you loosing half your arsenal not using them. At a certain point in too close a thrust becomes a push. Use the proper useage of the technique at the proper range.

Science can't example all that happens in martial arts, though some of the elaborate formulas work and makes sense.

WW this really was not a question of is it useless, bc I'm a believer, it was more have you notice this too?


Edited by Neko456 (09/16/07 11:49 PM)
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#360941 - 09/17/07 05:16 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
hedkikr Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Finally able to wade-in, thanks...

The issue of use of gloves & pads has definately affected the instruction of "snapping" power / impact. It's literally impossible to accomplish. It was explained to me as the difference between being hit w/ a stick (pushing/force) or a whip (snapping/impact).

Another factor also comes into play...the ability to relax, have loose musculature & maintain fluidity. Most people enter karate thinking it's all about tense, bulging muscles (and grimacing - refer to the "faces during kata" thread). It's about relaxation so your body can be accelerated into whipping your hand or fist toward the target & snapping.

Secret is that you don't need to penetrate through your target - 2-3 inches is more than sufficient. It's the shock wave not the fist that disrupts the internal organs. The actual movement @ an earthquakes epicenter is not great when compared w/ the shock wave it produces (hope that's a legitimate example Wrist).

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#360942 - 09/17/07 05:59 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: hedkikr]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
It is definitely possible to accomplish the snapping techniques found in karate with gloves on, however, it takes superior technique. The catch 22 is that fighting with gloves on encourages more sloppy technique that without. The reason being if you punch someone with no gloves on with sloppy technique you have a greater chance of injuring your hands than with the gloves.
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#360943 - 09/17/07 09:24 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: medulanet]
Happy Birthday BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

The catch 22 is that fighting with gloves on encourages more sloppy technique that without.


Among other things...


http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...22#Post15962471
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#360944 - 09/18/07 09:38 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
Ironfoot Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Quote:

... Done at the proper time its a devastating technique. The kind that drops them right there rather then knocks them away...




To me, that's when you know it was done right. As Wristtwister described in his snap kick, they go down right there; they collapse like an imploded building, they shouldn't go flying accross the room. Same result should happen with a snap punch. Allows you to follow up quickly as opposed to chasing them down.
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#360945 - 09/18/07 03:12 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: hedkikr]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
hed
good point.

And you can't move with ANY speed when your all tense and locked up.

Teaching newbies to relax is really hard---IMO.
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#360946 - 09/18/07 04:54 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ironfoot]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Ironfoot

The look is that of an imploding, because as you mention the topple over without much movement backwards as if pushed. But more of a toppling as if they absorbed the full force of the blow. I think it does take more setup and timing, unless you have some control of his movement, as in grabbing and pulling him into snapping and thrusting strikes.


The actual movement @ an earthquakes epicenter is not great when compared w/ the shock wave it produces (hope that's a legitimate example Wrist).

hedkikr I don't know about equating the force to a EQs epicenter r anything produced by a EQ? Unless you mean the way it looks in a graph, maybe still I don't think so. You can control the strike, you can't the EQ's spiking.



Edited by Neko456 (09/18/07 05:03 PM)
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#360947 - 09/18/07 09:35 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

The actual movement @ an earthquakes epicenter is not great when compared w/ the shock wave it produces (hope that's a legitimate example Wrist).




That's one, Neko, but it's more like the dynamics of a whip... where the force keeps compressing and compressing until it reaches the end... where it literally "explodes" as it releases energy. Once the energy is released, it's more like what you describe... which is why I mentioned "residence time" in contact with the target. The longer you stay in touch with the target, the more opportunity there is to "reabsorb" the energy released, which lessens the dynamic.

One of the exercises I used to teach for punching was to tell the student to punch like they were breaking a stick, and to stay completely loose until right at the end when they would snap a stick in two pieces. As they developed this skill, they could take the "punch" closer and closer to the target and still develop the same force as they "snapped" the punch into the target and retracted their arm. Then, you teach them to "snap and pull" the stick backward, which helped them to cut down on their "residence time".

I know it sounds simplistic, but my students could knock you across the room with almost no movement. It isn't the "Bruce Lee 1-inch punch", but it's pretty close. When you add a "full body contraction" timed with the punch, it's really dynamic, and it's totally a "snap technique". On a vital point, it'll drop somebody like a rock.

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#360948 - 09/18/07 10:46 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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'knocking across the room' is a push kick....which is a different impact than making someone's body hum like a struck tuning fork.

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#360949 - 09/19/07 02:04 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: wristtwister]
hedkikr Offline
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I've watched The B.L. 1" Punch over & over & it looks like a push to me.

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#360950 - 09/19/07 09:53 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: hedkikr]
Neko456 Offline
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hedikikr - its more then a push its a snap from the floor through his fist, Tai-chi, Pakua and Hsing-I among others have a punch done a little further away thats can fold or sending you tumbling backwards. Don't look at his fist look at his feet and waist and look at the guy getting punched face. Sometimes wide eye as if shocked or wind knock out of him. The Kenpo guy in the BL demo tried to asorb it, it dropped him in the chair arms down to his side, face in a stupor. Lee was 145lb note the BB was 180-200lbs, nothing but nets.

I have felt the Hsing-I close punch below the navel very unpleasant and disrupting, I wish I could do that. I can't quite get it. My Sensei developed it while the visiting Sifu was there, 20 yrs ago. Not only the body but the mind must relax, then exploded.

How practical it is in a fight, you are in elbow range why punch? But a little further out its a hell of a snap punuch.


Edited by Neko456 (09/19/07 09:58 AM)
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#360951 - 09/19/07 12:45 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
Umbra_777 Offline
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Posts: 148
I find this idea very interesting as I have noticed that when I work the heavy bag most of my techniques seem to more run into the heavy bag as opposed to striking the bag. I have also noticed that when the more advanced belts at my dojo punch it has a distinct crispness and power even when working from horse stance where you can not get much hip torque.

Do you have any techniques, drills, or considerations you use to develop this snap in your strikes?

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#360952 - 09/19/07 09:16 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Umbra_777]
Neko456 Offline
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Really the basic training of techniques is were you develop it (say in Karate/Gung-fu/Silat.. non gloved arts), working at throwing the punch/strikes with the body relaxed then at the moment of contact lock your entire body. After contact is made relax immediately, withdrawing the strike as fast as you struck after the amount of contact you desire.

There use to be a fire drill or candle drill we'd do, you are to exstinqush the flame with the snap/vaccumm of the strike or punch. If you stayed there too long you got burned, if you stopped too far away you'd never take out the flame. So without touching though you had to get close at 1st, the flame was put out.

You use to learn by pain back then, some got the hair on their wrist or hand burnted, when hard headed. Pending your base you maybe already on the way.

That was just one way to test & develop such a strike there are many, but it starts by planting the seed in basic training hard in the non gloved arts. Its there in the gloved art but rarely used most times in the counter inside strikes.


Edited by Neko456 (09/19/07 09:20 PM)

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#360953 - 09/19/07 09:32 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The technique from Taiji for "snap" punches is "fa jing". Erle Montaigue has some good "free downloads" on this kind of punching on his Taijiworld.com site.
Here's an example... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHt0JYfgVGY

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#360954 - 09/19/07 10:51 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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the candle trick is easy to do. and that would have to be one relatively sloooow punch to actually get burned or hair cinged.

the trick isn't a very good training aide or measure, since it's possible to do by just using arm snap.

actually hitting a bag is better since you get feedback from the impact of whether or not it connected or not. sometimes it doesn't even feel that solid, when it actually is - thats why a partner holding an impact pad is best of all. the feedback from the person of how it felt to them (was the shock penetrating or was the force pushed, etc..) is the advantage (and main point) of impact training when focusing on power generation as an isolated drill.


btw, the Montaigue vid doesn't demonstrate penetrating shock, IMO. it simply shows a jab with open hand. still good plus with all that weight behind him, it probably hurts - but it doesn't have 'the principle'.

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#360955 - 09/20/07 12:56 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
hedkikr Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
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yeah...what he said.

But as I browsed around, I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6KxA6H4aUg&mode=related&search=

nothing to do w/ the thread but always a hot topic

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#360956 - 09/20/07 03:35 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: hedkikr]
Neko456 Offline
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WW Earls pretty sharp.

All those are good examples but probably too advance for OP's needs and in Hedkikrs example over mines too with the no touch stuff again. Practice your basic and the techniques can be developed to a powerful application. The Hands on viberating techniques are possible but the hands off seem to only work on the Masters students. I've trained in my little fish bowl for 25+ years I can't figure or believe the hands off control of Chi is possible. I believe its a lot like Voodoo or Hypnotist, its real and works if the attacker believes its possible.

Practice your basics and you will get there. Video are good but they usually don't tell how to get there. Not that they aren't valid but you spend too much time wonder how, instead of practicing.


Edited by Neko456 (09/20/07 03:54 AM)
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#360957 - 09/20/07 03:42 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The candle is to develope the snap, it is a simple exercise. I believe he was talking about how to start developing this technique that was just one example.

As for people getting burned and U analyzing that the punch must be slow or over penterated, like a thrust and held out, as many beginners do. You are correct and thats what I was trying to say, that they were using the wrong method of delievery, who knows what they are think, maybe that this too easy.

As fo bag work he mentioned that his seniors at his dojo hit the bag using the snap technique, he wanted to know how to begin. Don't U read the OP post?

As I mentioned there are numerous way to develope the technique.


Edited by Neko456 (09/20/07 03:52 AM)
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#360958 - 09/20/07 08:01 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: hedkikr]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Interesting how every one of the attackers knew exactly what limb to move and how many times to move it before Dr. Yeung either threw them or caused them to fall down, isn't it? That would have to be some choreography!

I'm not much on the "chi ball" circuit, but I find it interesting when someone like him is attacked and the attackers all are responded to differently and "action" differently from the chi application. Over the years, I've done a lot of training, but none of it was to teach me how to respond to chi application, other than blending in Aikido and jujutsu; so who can explain this without either saying chi doesn't exist, or that chi does exist but you can't make people do these things using it?

Interesting video, Hedkikr...

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#360959 - 09/20/07 09:29 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: hedkikr]
Ed_Morris Offline
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two words that destroy these demos, hedkikr:
"Randi challenge" 'nuff said.

the only person that could move another person without touching them is Cord and his scarry puppet.

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#360960 - 09/21/07 02:30 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
hedkikr Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
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"scary puppet"?



anyway, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, the vid just popped up. Reminds me of that bearded Japanese guy that got KO'd by the Kyokushin guy.

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#360961 - 09/21/07 09:39 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: wristtwister]
Happy Birthday BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Quote:

... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHt0JYfgVGY





I always laugh at fat guys giving ma demonstrations. I'm thinking , dude, get in shape for goodness sake.
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#360962 - 09/21/07 12:26 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: wristtwister]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
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After watching the Dr.Yeung from the 1970s,80s & 90s his basics are pretty sharp, he advanced pretty much like the rest of us trained external and then internal. He is a pretty powerful and knowledgable sifu but the no touch is a bit much.

I wouldn't trust that on the street, if you believe it may work. You just can't ask if they do on the street. I'm mean like this, "Before we dance do you believe in no touch Chi or Voodoo?"
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#360963 - 09/21/07 01:10 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

I wouldn't trust that on the street, if you believe it may work. You just can't ask if they do on the street. I'm mean like this, "Before we dance do you believe in no touch Chi or Voodoo?"




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#360964 - 09/21/07 07:25 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I call BS on that Yeung video too. I think it was the Amazing Randy and I'll see if I can dig up the link...if there is one...where another Internal Kung Fu guy claimed to be able to move another person, his student, with chi.

Even agreed to be do it with a sheet in front of him and the person "linked" to him. Turns out couldn't do it without line of sight and was perplexed by this (remember karate guy vs ki master). When the tape was examined there is a sympathetic response from one to the other to quickly mimic what was expected....but there was a time delay. The participants seemed to be unaware of this. When you delude others, sometimes it starts with oneself.

Hokey stuff to believe in. Sorry.

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#360965 - 09/25/07 04:53 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: butterfly]
matchhead_jack Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/07
Posts: 96
Loc: Jonesboro, Arkansas
Dr.Yeung's video is a load of bovine escremate. Forget Randy, I'd like to try. Is this the guy that taught George Dillman? This fellow's way better than him! Could he send a chi ball through the internet to attack soa;lsjd;klas...sorry I went unconscious for a moment...where am i? Why am I hearing gongs?

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#424102 - 12/19/09 02:04 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
LMB Offline
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Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 1
I'm new to this forum and I realize that this is an older thread, but I am wondering if someone can explain what the target(s) for a snapping roundhouse kick would be? in 'Ed Morris's' post, he says he was kicked to the inside of the thigh and it almost dropped him. Are there any other useful targets from a more historical and self-defense perspective? (in other words, I'm not interested in snapping kicks to the head which seem to be a relatively new and sport influenced invention.) Also, I have trained in both muay thai and goju ryu karate. I was taught to use my shin for the power round in muay thai but to use the top of my foot for the snapping roundhouse kick. Is the top of the foot the correct contact point for the snapping roundhouse kick in karate? I would really just like to understand the snapping kicks better and their function from a self-defense point of view. A power round to the outside of the thigh seems like it would be more effective and devastating than a snap kick to the same area. Sorry to be long-winded. Just looking for some clarity.

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#431009 - 12/01/10 12:19 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
Brusashi Offline
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Registered: 08/12/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Florida
I don't think the snap techniques are useless. Their affect is diminished when you spar, of course, due to padding. If an opponent/assailant is advancing into your range, snap punches and kicks are useful because they will allow your opponent to continue in your range as you hit them continuously. Thrust punches and kicks would be used more so as positional checks. Think of it in terms like this, a snapping punch or kick is used in instances in which there is a need for speed, a thrusting punch or kick is used in instances in which there is a need for power. Food for thought.
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#432130 - 04/19/11 01:52 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
gojuman59 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
I realize that this is an old thread, but I had to weigh In on this subject. In my humble opinion, the only way to use snap techniques is in a self defense situation with accuracy. I just think that in a tournament setting the equipment on the hands and feet negate the accuracy that is needed for snap techniques.
I know that in the old days flinging your feet or hands at targets scored points, but accuracy was a relative thing.
It wasn't until I started up in a traditional style (Okinawan Goju Ryu) that I was to learn the lesson that snap techniques when done without pads must have great focus.

just some thoughts, Mark

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#432134 - 04/19/11 03:09 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: gojuman59]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Just curious gojuman, but how do they practice accuracy in your currenct style of karate? Do you spar at all or do you use targets (like pads)?

Thanks.
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#432135 - 04/19/11 03:29 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Prizewriter]
gojuman59 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
We do spar some, but I have to admit that we do more on the focus pads. This being said I guess I come off being kind of pompous sometimes. You have to remember as an old broken down tournament fighter who has started over in a traditional school my opinions are old school.



keep on keepin on, Mark

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#432142 - 04/20/11 08:33 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: gojuman59]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Hey no problem, thanks for the input! I was just curious as to what you did in terms of training for accuracy.

I find that combat sports can be a mixed bag. They offer a lot of benefits but they can develop bad habits too.
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#432149 - 04/20/11 06:33 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Prizewriter]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
I know what you mean. You can imagine how a ITF tournament fighter from yesteryear would find himself knocked on his butt with regularity in a traditional (goju) school. Lots of bad habits combined with being older than dirt. "This not tournament Daniel son, this is for real" Ha!Ha!
Starting over in the arts has done one thing real well,It has let me be a better fellow student. Old age is a humbling thing, man. Well I got to go. Class is a waiting.

later, Mark

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