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#360938 - 09/15/07 08:15 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
believe me, you don't need to tell Brad that - he gave me a nice purple ring on my inside theigh from one of his 'snap kicks' last year. good thing it was < 50% power, I would've fell like a sack-a-potatas.

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#360939 - 09/16/07 10:14 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Just looking back at our practice over the last few months, this question makes me realize that we work almost entirely in a "snap" regimen. It's SD dedicated practice, instead of competition, and we don't use padded mitts much.

I think Wristtwister nailed it from our training perspective.

"Speed and accuracy combine to make many of the old Dim Mak techniques what they are, and the vibration of a snap technique is what "develops the effect" of the strike."

We don't specifically puruse that, but looks like we're getting some anyway. I saw it work yesterday morning.

We were working a green new student (my 21 year old son) in a tai sabaki drill with chudan punches. I was explaining that we would gradually pick up the velocity till they began to approach realistic. To demonstrate, I flicked out a snap punch to the gi SURFACE of his solar plexus. It landed on the surface and probably penetrated a quarter inch - max. For all practical purposes it was a "tap". But it was totally unexpected, very fast and it turned out to be perfectly placed.

The result was shocking to him. Huge eyes, hands instantly covered the spot. Then he bent over with incredulous laughter. He wasn't hurt at all, but his description was that it was just a hair away from knocking his wind out.

Reading what Grady wrote above, I begin, now, to put it together. We try hard to do good targeting in practice. I probably just got "lucky" with this one, but... maybe not.

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#360940 - 09/16/07 11:48 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Joss]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with most you that the proper use of these techniques is just another part of the Martial Arts, and a useful part of delievery. Done at the proper time its a devastating technique. The kind that drops them right there rather then knocks them away.

Personally I find the thrusting technique more basic, in that theres less mindset and purpose, now I would say that its just as useful and meaning-ful as the snap.

Granted its hard to do in gloves but possible, the speed of the technique helps in delievery you just have to know that it may just rock him, really the long thrusting shot in gloves in-close waste too much time. When I first started full contact they could hit me 3 to one once inside, when I shorten the punuch (used snap punches) then followed with the power cross, my results were much better even in gloves. So there is some when and how in the gloves.

Out of gloves you loosing half your arsenal not using them. At a certain point in too close a thrust becomes a push. Use the proper useage of the technique at the proper range.

Science can't example all that happens in martial arts, though some of the elaborate formulas work and makes sense.

WW this really was not a question of is it useless, bc I'm a believer, it was more have you notice this too?


Edited by Neko456 (09/16/07 11:49 PM)
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#360941 - 09/17/07 05:16 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Finally able to wade-in, thanks...

The issue of use of gloves & pads has definately affected the instruction of "snapping" power / impact. It's literally impossible to accomplish. It was explained to me as the difference between being hit w/ a stick (pushing/force) or a whip (snapping/impact).

Another factor also comes into play...the ability to relax, have loose musculature & maintain fluidity. Most people enter karate thinking it's all about tense, bulging muscles (and grimacing - refer to the "faces during kata" thread). It's about relaxation so your body can be accelerated into whipping your hand or fist toward the target & snapping.

Secret is that you don't need to penetrate through your target - 2-3 inches is more than sufficient. It's the shock wave not the fist that disrupts the internal organs. The actual movement @ an earthquakes epicenter is not great when compared w/ the shock wave it produces (hope that's a legitimate example Wrist).

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#360942 - 09/17/07 05:59 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: hedkikr]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
It is definitely possible to accomplish the snapping techniques found in karate with gloves on, however, it takes superior technique. The catch 22 is that fighting with gloves on encourages more sloppy technique that without. The reason being if you punch someone with no gloves on with sloppy technique you have a greater chance of injuring your hands than with the gloves.
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#360943 - 09/17/07 09:24 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

The catch 22 is that fighting with gloves on encourages more sloppy technique that without.


Among other things...


http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...22#Post15962471
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#360944 - 09/18/07 09:38 AM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Quote:

... Done at the proper time its a devastating technique. The kind that drops them right there rather then knocks them away...




To me, that's when you know it was done right. As Wristtwister described in his snap kick, they go down right there; they collapse like an imploded building, they shouldn't go flying accross the room. Same result should happen with a snap punch. Allows you to follow up quickly as opposed to chasing them down.
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#360945 - 09/18/07 03:12 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: hedkikr]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
hed
good point.

And you can't move with ANY speed when your all tense and locked up.

Teaching newbies to relax is really hard---IMO.
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#360946 - 09/18/07 04:54 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Ironfoot]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Ironfoot

The look is that of an imploding, because as you mention the topple over without much movement backwards as if pushed. But more of a toppling as if they absorbed the full force of the blow. I think it does take more setup and timing, unless you have some control of his movement, as in grabbing and pulling him into snapping and thrusting strikes.


The actual movement @ an earthquakes epicenter is not great when compared w/ the shock wave it produces (hope that's a legitimate example Wrist).

hedkikr I don't know about equating the force to a EQs epicenter r anything produced by a EQ? Unless you mean the way it looks in a graph, maybe still I don't think so. You can control the strike, you can't the EQ's spiking.



Edited by Neko456 (09/18/07 05:03 PM)
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#360947 - 09/18/07 09:35 PM Re: Are the snap technique of old Karate useless? [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

The actual movement @ an earthquakes epicenter is not great when compared w/ the shock wave it produces (hope that's a legitimate example Wrist).




That's one, Neko, but it's more like the dynamics of a whip... where the force keeps compressing and compressing until it reaches the end... where it literally "explodes" as it releases energy. Once the energy is released, it's more like what you describe... which is why I mentioned "residence time" in contact with the target. The longer you stay in touch with the target, the more opportunity there is to "reabsorb" the energy released, which lessens the dynamic.

One of the exercises I used to teach for punching was to tell the student to punch like they were breaking a stick, and to stay completely loose until right at the end when they would snap a stick in two pieces. As they developed this skill, they could take the "punch" closer and closer to the target and still develop the same force as they "snapped" the punch into the target and retracted their arm. Then, you teach them to "snap and pull" the stick backward, which helped them to cut down on their "residence time".

I know it sounds simplistic, but my students could knock you across the room with almost no movement. It isn't the "Bruce Lee 1-inch punch", but it's pretty close. When you add a "full body contraction" timed with the punch, it's really dynamic, and it's totally a "snap technique". On a vital point, it'll drop somebody like a rock.

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