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#360760 - 09/13/07 06:02 PM Must see clip
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I usually don't link from one forum to another but this is a "must see clip". I believe in Kyusho training obviously, I moderate the PP forum. This clip probably shows better than anything else could how knowing precisely where to hit can enhance your art.

You have to see this soon or the clip will be gone because Master Pantazi changes them often.

http://kyusho.com/clip.htm
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#360761 - 09/13/07 06:13 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: underdog]
JKogas Offline
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Saw the clip. I've been kneed in that spot and struck in places by people much harder than that. Why haven't I been "knocked out" in much the same way as the person in the clip was? Was it because the girl expressed her chi and my partners/opponents haven't?

I'm just trying to see how a little girls knee strike with really NOTHING on it just makes the guy go limp basically. I know I've been kneed much harder and wasn't knocked out.

Explain?

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#360762 - 09/13/07 06:44 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: JKogas]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
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Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Looking at the clip, I think he "helped her out" on the knee strike AFTER she got it right. He held the pose for her. The big surprise was the KO. I think she was shown what to do but hit him before the instructors were ready to "help her". I think that was what the laughter was.

It took her three tries to get the Sp 11 point to their satisfaction but she surprised them by getting the St 5 shot right away before they could remind her how to do it.


Edited by underdog (09/13/07 06:46 PM)
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#360763 - 09/13/07 07:59 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: underdog]
JMWcorwin Offline
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I was wondering if they've ever done a demo along these lines with the uke not being someone trained in kyusho? So, the new person being taught is striking someone who also has not developed any possible ingrained responses to being struck this way? Even better, a trained MAist who trains a differnt style and maybe even doesn't believe in PP KO's?

I'm not saying I don't buy it. But, I don't buy it as sound evidence without some more control studies. Have her do the technique on a Kyusho person, a non MA person, a firm non believer, and maybe a bunch from each category and see what happens. All with the uke's being kept isolated from the rest of the seminar or demo. You know, scientific process?

I'd just be interested in the results. And I would think the Kyusho people would be also if want to silence the disbelievers.

Maybe this has already been asked a thousand times. If so, I apologize. I only ask because I have taken my techniques and tried them on all of the above, so have my instructors. What works on most people most of the time stays. What doesn't work more often than it works, is dropped or redesigned so it does work more accross the board. Twist any man's or woman's wrist this way for long enough and far enough,,, it breaks. Who knew? Tried and true. Tested and confirmed.
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#360764 - 09/13/07 09:28 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: JMWcorwin]
BrianS Offline
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I agree with your comments JMW.

Another things this engrains is false confidence. Should this little girl actually believe she can do this in the outside world if attacked by a large man?

I have done pressure point study myself. I KNOW that the ko's are real, I've felt them and done them even when sparring, but size, technique, and other factors come into play.
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#360765 - 09/13/07 09:56 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: BrianS]
underdog Offline
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Of course other factors come into play. This kid is a white belt on one of her first days in the dojo and she is 10 years old. Nobody sees it as anything other than that. No one is suggesting that she can realistically defend herself against him. That wasn't the purpose of the demo. What she demonstrated was that with minimal instruction, she could get the desired effect from her strikes even on a big guy.

When I train in other places, I try a few Kyusho techniques on people who don't train it. I get just as good a result as I get with the people in my own school. I look forward to opportunities to do that because since they don't know what I am looking for, they can't be overly helpful. I'm going to budo camp next weekend in Nebraska. The host is a Kempo guy who does Kyusho, but there will be other instructors there who do not and people from other schools that do not train Kyusho. I do a Kempo style. I'll get a chance to train other people's Aikido and Jo and other things I don't normally do and to practice on others too. I've done this before and it makes for a great weekend.

As for kids defending themselves against adult perpetrators, we have "kyusho kids" in my school. They are the best kids in different ranks and they train Kyusho in extra classes. They are taught how to apply them and defend against adults. We had them do a demonstration last weekend when we had our camp. We had Kyusho people from different styles at our camp. They tried to "abduct" the kids. The kids had to get away before the adult could drag them a certain distance. In most cases the kids got free. It was good because they got to see the intensity. One kid cried but she was OK after the first attack. It surprised her. She got away on her second attempt and pretty quickly too. But these kids weren't white belts on their first day. Some have been training martial arts for 4-5 years and the Kyusho for at least a year.
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#360766 - 09/14/07 10:46 AM Re: Must see clip [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
This is not the way to get people to buy into PP's. For fear of offending anyone I'll probably back off, but having studied PP striking I never bought into these sort of K.O's and I have never seen a staunch non-believer go out. These demo's from a combat perspective are utterly pointless, both energetically and practically. Why don't Kyusho people spend more time developing practical realistic demonstrations. I have seen a LOT of demo's and none have ever been done under realistic conditions against resisting opponents. I've trained with people who are supposedly RBSD people doing PP's and under "alive" conditions not one discernible PP attack worked. These people always blag "this stuff is too dangerous" so they work it at unrealistic speeds that doesn't train skilled reflex level responses. Instead of skilled responses I've seen panicked gross motor actions along the same lines as an untrained person when these people are put through the meat grinder.

A question, how comes the worlds leading reality based practitioners aren't doing this sort of stuff? Why isn't Geoff Thompson, Matt Thornton, Peter Constantine, Steve Morris, Richard Dimitri, etc, etc, etc...studying this?

It was seeing the worlds supposedly top PP people doing demo's like this that finally nailed the coffin lid down on my PP journey...sorry but this is only a must see demo if you are arguing against PP's
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#360767 - 09/14/07 11:17 AM Re: Must see clip [Re: underdog]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Gav -

Although the video is no longer there, I really liked the demo done in this thread. Not totally resistant, but much more realistic, IMHO.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15885049
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#360768 - 09/14/07 11:41 AM Re: Must see clip [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Yeah that was a better one and was representative of the way me and James used to work them on each other at the time. Trouble is I removed all of the video clips from my CA site (I'll ask James if he still has a copy) as our training is totally different now and they really didn't represent the direction I'm now going. I'm moving into a new gym next month so I'm trying to get some new clips done then.

What me an James found was that the points I based my point of the week threads on were reliable and could be hit fairly easily with power under stress...and James did whack me a few times. I very very rarely even mention PP's now, can't actually remember the last time I did to be honest, what I do now is put people in dynamic situations and let them find ways out and then give more options. Like this morning I was doing a private lesson and got the guy to work strikes on me being in a closed guard. Done it with me tying his hands up so he was forced to use other tools like the elbow and head and then putting him in different positions. Then I flipped him over showed some more options and refined target areas and then we jumped on the ground and pound bag to really develop some power into his shots. Its amazing if you put someone in a dynamic intuitive environment they will naturally develop to hitting sensitive targets under the right guidance.....and more often than not its hitting a PP.
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#360769 - 09/14/07 11:48 AM Re: Must see clip [Re: Gavin]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I did not see the video Gavin was showing, but have to agree with his and Corwin's posts. You have to do this double blind and, if the stuff really works in environments where you would actually have to pull this off, then you would be seeing these things done in cage matches and taught elsewhere in application intense environments.... and they're not.

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#360770 - 09/14/07 01:18 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
As a beginner in MA, PP seems interesting. But the pragmatic side of me notes that it 'took 3 tries' for a little girl find the right spot on a compliant person.

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#360771 - 09/14/07 01:20 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thats because they are secret and too dangerous....which is why they were teaching it to a child.

underdog:
- is there a video of the no-touch version? would there be any difference in result? perhaps the same result: buckle leg as if in pain then take a nap.

- can the same technique work on a stranger? one who is not trained in power-napping on command?

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#360772 - 09/14/07 02:33 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: Ed_Morris]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I can not do KOs at work obviously, I'm a psychiatric nurse. For the most part, I work with drug addicts and alcoholics who also have a mental illness. I use PP to assist tuite and escape from grabs against fully resisting patients: fortunately not that often. They work. There isn't really that much secret to this stuff. It is like anything else. Train it. You could say the same about tuite or grappling. Sure, if you have a fully resisting opponent and you are trying to grapple or work a tuite maneuver on 1-2 lessons, your technque won't work. As long as my PP study continues to help me, I will continue to train it along with my basic style, which is American-Te, a local Kempo style.

I don't have clips of no-touch available for me to link. I do not do or train them. They have no combat value as far as I can tell at this time.

At my age, I only want to train stuff that will make me able to defend myself against real attack. I have no interest in competition or higher order skills with no combat value. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it is a matter of some indifference to me. I just thought the clip was really cute because she got the guy by surprise before he was ready for it. He wasn't expecting her to get it when she did. He was done before the cue for her to go ahead and try it. Every style has some good kid/beginner clips. I just liked the clip because it made me laugh. I didn't figure it would convince anyone. I wasn't even thinking about that. I thought some other people would enjoy a laugh too.

PP are incorporated already into other styles and teaching. It is less a matter of if they are there, as to the vocabulary and degree of attention. In my first martial arts experience, TKD, our school kumite had pressure points built into the techniques. Sometimes Sabum told us they were pressure points and sometimes he didn't but he'd say "press here it makes the arm move" or hit here it hurts". It was not a pressure point school affiliated with any well known pressure point advocate. It was just International TKD.

I don't even know why I am again defending pressure points. Do you guys make the moderators of the other topic threads defend their styles too? Why don't you just ask administration to cut this forum? I don't care if you use PP or not. Why is it so important to all of you that I give them up? Lighten up and laugh. It was a cute clip not a political statement.
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#360773 - 09/14/07 03:12 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: underdog]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
NOt speaking for anyone else, but I didn't intend to make you defend them in my post. I was just asking if you knew of any studies done to test the techniques' effectiveness.

I want to believe. If it works I would want to learn it. Just wondering if anyone had done that kind of study to find out how much is MA technique and how much is pre conditioned response to these stimuli. If you believe with everything you have that I can knock you out by looking at you, your brain has a funny way of making those things happen.

Maybe the title "Cute video clip" wouldn't have drawn as much argument as "Must see". For cuteness, sure it is a good clip. I kinda took the post as more of a "See this really works, you have to watch" kind of thing.
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There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#360774 - 09/14/07 03:30 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: JMWcorwin]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
If you believe with everything you have that I can knock you out by looking at you, your brain has a funny way of making those things happen.





That is a rediculous proposition. You didn't get that from the clip. You didn't get that from me. I don't know how this thread went so far astray. I've spent far more time on it than I ever intended. It isn't worth it. I'm done with it.





Edited by underdog (09/14/07 03:37 PM)

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#360775 - 09/14/07 03:36 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: underdog]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
You know, it could be worse. People could ignore you, and the PP forum would be as dead as the Zen forum. At least folks have an interest in the topic...albeit a challenging one.

Sucks to be ignored.

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#360776 - 09/14/07 03:38 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: underdog]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Lighten up and laugh.


Good point. I'll take your advice.

ok...here is another cute no-touch knockout:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffahKQjsGLo

BWWAAAHA-HAHAaaaah..ah..

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#360777 - 09/14/07 03:41 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: underdog]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Many apologies. Trying to throw water on the fire and aparently I threw gasoline. My mistake.


Nothing from Hapkido, just psychology. Convince a person that something is hot and it's been proven that cold water can leave a burn on a person who truly believed it was hot. Your brain can make thought reality. That's all. You know, mind over matter. Cancer patients undergoing chemo have been documented at times to start vomitting on sight of the hospital or a nurse from the hospital. The brain is relating the hospital and the nurse to the nausea. Not an argument just an analogy made about human psychology.

So again, sorry if I poured salt in an open wound.
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There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#360778 - 09/14/07 03:44 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: JMWcorwin]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
You know...I was just discussing this idea, of the brain 'seeing' something, with a friend last night. At one point, I recall the knife/shower scene in 'Psycho' had red blood. She had the same memory. Only...it was a totally B&W movie. Our brains 'colored' that scene. Now, not knowing anything about PP...when I see this clip, I have my own personal filters that are being applied. I don't know what anyone sees, but I did view the clip with the understanding that it would be cute. But with a history of being attacked...I didn't view it that way. I was looking for efficacy. Sorry.

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#360779 - 09/14/07 04:15 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Lighten up and laugh. It was a cute clip not a political statement.




It's not a cute clip imo, its installing a dangerous sense of security in a 10 year old girl who might now think that she has the power to disable an attacking male. Children are innocent souls who will believe what they see and do. If they have a large male falling over with a slight tap they may believe it. They then might be inclined to engage an attacker rather than running...that bothers me! Misinformation in this case could have serious consequences.

I'm not asking you to defend the clip at all, but posting it as a "must see clip" as an example of how easy kyusho is...blah blah is the intention that this thread was started. And for the record this is not a personal attack, I'm attacking the issue, please don't take it personally...if you don't like people debating the content you post, then don't post it. This is not a light hearted subject for me, this is the education of children for life skills.
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#360780 - 09/14/07 06:20 PM Re: Must see clip [Re: Gavin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Another things this engrains is false confidence. Should this little girl actually believe she can do this in the outside world if attacked by a large man?






Gavin,

That's precisely what I was saying here. I'm not attacking underdog in any way, shape, or form.

I agree with your sentiments.
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#360781 - 09/14/07 10:29 PM Re: Must see irresponsible clip [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

If they have a large male falling over with a slight tap they may believe it. They then might be inclined to engage an attacker rather than running...that bothers me! Misinformation in this case could have serious consequences.



thats a really good point.

there's a big difference to that nonsense in the video vs. teaching kids targets AND how to hit hard.


the light tap 'magic button' pressure point folk are as fraudulant and delusional as the NTKO folks....and I think it's the same psychological mechanisim going on.

anybody ever hear of ANY police force in your country or anwhere in the world training light touch knock-outs for real-world application? probably not. reason: it doesn't work on strangers.

there are no 'magic buttons' to switch people off, ladies - you will HAVE to learn how to hit something hard. maybe it's tempting to think there is magic power out there that will compensate for lacking actual hitting power...but there isn't. learn how to hit hard first, then learn which vital areas to hit, and then refine the targeting to the more specific targets.

hit hard, without delusions of what will happen.

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#360782 - 09/15/07 03:29 AM Re: Must see irresponsible clip [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Totally agree Ed. And if this was just a fun clip why does it have this description:

Quote:

A Young Girl, a Large Man and the power of Kyusho!

This young girl, Kayla (10 at the time), was brought up at the first International Kyusho Convention in 2000, to demonstrate the potential of Kyusho.

This was a new experience as she was never taught Kyusho prior to this day, but with a bit of coaching, she learned self protection is possible in a very short time.

Kyusho is not Magic, it is understanding the Human Body.




So now this isn't just a demo, this is what is being touted as self protection these days!
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#360783 - 09/15/07 07:52 AM Re: Must see irresponsible clip [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
finished that description for them:
Quote:

Kyusho is not Magic, it is understanding the Human Body in a magical way.



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#360784 - 01/14/08 11:01 AM Re: Must see irresponsible clip [Re: Ed_Morris]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
i must dig in here on the issue of pressue points not working on strangers to the training concept.

when i go on tour with my instructor we work mainly with people who have not trained with us or in kyusho jitsu and we still get the same predictive results. we also find that some people don't have the same reaction as the majority. but the then they are open to other points or are really sensitive to joint locks.

in relation pp ko's, the best thing you can expect are TKO's. much of the evangalistic type demo's are pure fluff and are mainly well meaning students trying not to make a fool out of there instructor.

to paraphrase taika oyata, kyusho works best delivered at a time when the attacker is not expecting it. when someone has not trained in kyusho they will not think that a strike on the arm will hurt like feck as most people do not try to protect there arms.

in my class students seem to be less responsive to strikes the more we practice. as there body prepares for the hit or they know the drill and where the strikes will land.

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#360785 - 02/10/08 10:08 PM Re: Must see irresponsible clip [Re: Paulol]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

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#360786 - 02/11/08 07:57 PM Re: Must see irresponsible clip [Re: Ed_Morris]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112

Quote:

now I see what you mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxAEAT7qL7c




well done! you got that in one!

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