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#360678 - 09/13/07 02:31 PM Krav Maga ineffective in MMA setting?
DKS Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 2
I am to begin taking Krav Maga classes next week, and I am curious about something I've seen across MA forums around the net. I have seen many bash Krav Maga for non-realistic training (which seems odd considering KM is the only defense system I've come across here in the States that encourages full contact sparring once one is familiar with basic striking / counter techniques). This may be arguable. One thing I have heard just as consistently is that Krav Maga would be completely useless in MMA because the techniques are not designed for use against someone with combative skills. I believe this disregards the military h2h origins of KM as a system. Remember that soldiers are training to fight other soldiers who presumably also have close combat techniques under their belt. Furthermore the self-defense aspects of KM do not play any part in MMA, that is obvious. But why is there the assumption that the strikes,locks/holds, throws, and grappling that is borrowed from other arts and taught in KM cannot be used effectively in MMA?


I try not to hold Biblically to any one series of techniques, I find it hard to improve myself in that way. What works for me is the core ideas of JKD / Muay Thai: Be aggresive, but fluid. Never block / stop-hit without an effective counter or escape. Use attacks in each range appropriately. Attack opponent's lead. Protect your centerline. Control opponent's centerline. Exploit openings.. etc. This seems to mesh well with what I have read, seen, and heard about KM.

To summarize, is it just that many people commenting on the effectiveness or lack thereof of KM -- in the ring or on the street -- do not have actual experience in the style? Why is KM considered so terrible for MMA applications even though the techniques for strikes, takedowns, grappling, etc. all come from MA styles which are indeed prevalent in MMA training (knees & elbows from MT, grappling from BJJ, punching from JKD, etc)??

Sorry that was so long. But it's something I'm really interested in discussing.

Cheers,
D
_________________________
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#360679 - 09/13/07 03:08 PM Re: Krav Maga ineffective in MMA setting? [Re: DKS]
JasonM Offline
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Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
Well, I agree with what you said. I think most but not all make the assumption about krav before even trying it. I think a krav person would fare pretty well against an MMA fighter. But it all depends on the fighters, their training etc.

In my experience Krav incorporates their striking from Muay Thai and even t hought I don't think they will say it but a lot of their ground comes from BJJ.

IMO krav just took what other styles had and only used what they felt worked and they disgarded the rest.

I hope this helps and I wouldn't worry about what a lot of other forums, ppl say. Funny thing is is that I wa sprobably one of those people before I tried Krav. I was a krate guy and didn't think I woulod mesh well with krav but I did.
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#360680 - 09/15/07 11:07 AM Re: Krav Maga ineffective in MMA setting? [Re: JasonM]
El_nuncio Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/07
Posts: 1
I got started in Krav Maga recently, after having spent some time in a well-regarded MMA organization. First I'll say that I am far from an expert in either.

My impression is that it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison. The primary goal of Krav is to kill/maim/immobilize or render impotent an attacker in a situation where your life is on the line. It is truly a "no holds barred" situation, while in MMA, it's obviously different. There are lots of rules in MMA that prevent a Krav practitioner from using some of his primary weapons-- gouging, scratching, biting, head-butts, joint locks, vertical elbows, etc.

There is also the issue of physical conditioning. I've found so far that the Krav methods are not nearly as physically demanding as MMA in that they don't spend a lot of time on strength training or long-interval cardio, like an MMA fighter. The goal in Krav is to stop the fight as soon as possible, however possible, and they wouldn't be trained for several 3-5 minute exchanges with an equally fit opponent. Most real-world street fights will probably never last more than a minute at most. From a power standpoint, there could also be a disparity. Punching and kicking techniques are primary weapons in MMA, and the intense strength and cardio training they endure helps the MMA fighter to put as much power as possible into those techniques. While important in Krav, punching and kicking are complimented by all sorts of other "strikes of opportunity" so that the weaker defender is at less of a disadvantage when facing an opponent who has greater size and strength.

I would imagine that ultimately, the MMA fighter would have the advantage in the ring and a well-skilled Krav practitioner might have the advantage on the street. Even still, it is primarly useful against attackers with little or no combat training or those with training who don't have a considerable size and strength advantage. I do think it is true that in any situation and in any discipline where you face an attacker who has both effective combat training as well as size and strength advantages, you are probably going to lose. Put a soldier (unarmed, of course) with average to above-average physique who is an expert Krav Maga fighter against a world class MMA fighter with an extreme physique, and my money is on the MMA fighter 8 out of 10 times.

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#360681 - 09/15/07 09:05 PM Re: Krav Maga ineffective in MMA setting? [Re: El_nuncio]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
I was watching Human Weapon and it was the Krav Maga episode. Generally I don't like the show because I don't buy into the hosts or the fights at the end, but this episode had a line in it that sums up my views about this UFC vrs Self Defense argument we seem to have all the time on this board.

At the very beginning of the show the Krav guy said to Jason? (the MMA guy) "you may be great in the ring but you don't know Sh*t about self defense.

I coulda kissed him.
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#360682 - 09/15/07 09:26 PM Re: Krav Maga ineffective in MMA setting? [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Well Kimo, that obviously proves that the Krav guy was just operating from the same faulty premise that everyone ELSE does who draws the same incomplete conclusion. I mean, just because he's a KRAV guy doesn't make him a rocket scientist.


El Nuncio

You wrote:
Quote:


My impression is that it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison. The primary goal of Krav is to kill/maim/immobilize or render impotent an attacker in a situation where your life is on the line.





Let me ask you A question: Do you think that an MMA guy would have any different goal? You see, this is where many people make these bad assumptions. The premise here is that an MMA guy is going to (for some reason) allow his opponent to fight back in the street. It is a misconception that an MMA guy will turn every street encounter into an MMA fight. This isn't the case brother, just to let you know.

In fact, there IS no fighting back once you're engaged. In short, it doesn't look so much like an MMA fight as it does a CRIME SCENE. I think this is worth pointing out.



-John

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#360683 - 09/16/07 11:54 AM Re: Krav Maga ineffective in MMA setting? [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

just operating from the same faulty premise that everyone ELSE does who draws the same incomplete conclusion




By faulty premise would that be when Jason got stabbed 8 times while trying to clinch the knife weilding attacker?

That faulty premise?
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#360684 - 09/16/07 02:37 PM Re: Krav Maga ineffective in MMA setting? [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
No, the faulty premise that MMA guys don't try and finish fights or aren't good at defending themselves. THAT faulty premise.

If someone decides to fight a guy wielding a knife and gets cut, what's to comment on? The only decision should have been NOT to engage.

The fact that he only got cut eight times would to me seem like a victory, but I can't comment on this because I've not seen it. Provide a link perhaps?

Question for you though Kimo, what "should" he have done?

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#360685 - 09/16/07 04:21 PM Re: Krav Maga ineffective in MMA setting? [Re: JKogas]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
John,
I don't know if there is a link. I happened to see that episode while at a friends house. As I remember they had Jason at a training faclity in Israel. They did a kind of baseline test by having him and his buddy defend against an attacker with a blade. His first attemtp to defend was less than successful. After he went through the program at the facility he was able to improve his performance. In the end he went against multiple guys, some armed and did very well. I believe that he was able to pick up the Krav techniques so quickly in part because of his atheletic and mma experience.
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#360686 - 09/16/07 10:23 PM Re: Krav Maga ineffective in MMA setting? [Re: oldman]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I see. So this wasn't a "live" blade. Does anyone know who this Jason is or how long he's been training?

I can say that if you don't train to deal with blades, you probably won't deal with them very well. That was probably missing from "Jason's" MMA training. I say, "probably" because I don't know who this Jason is or how he trains.

I'll try and catch this particular episode because I'd like to comment more fully on this.


-John

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#360687 - 09/16/07 10:56 PM Re: Krav Maga ineffective in MMA setting? [Re: JKogas]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
John,

BINGO!!!

This clip shows the scene in question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNjvFuqpWNE&mode=related&search=

This has a clip about Jason Chambers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCJ64DW4GTA&mode=related&search=

The last clip is the multiple assailent section.


Edited by oldman (09/16/07 10:58 PM)

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