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#359815 - 09/06/07 12:03 AM 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido?
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Does Aikido have/train the concept of pre-emptive attack when incoming attack is eminent? If so, could you explain some of the techniques/concepts/principles (in Aikido terms) you do or know as drills....thanks, just curious!

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#359816 - 09/07/07 08:39 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It's actually beyond sen sen no sen.

Stan Pranin explains it (better than I can)...
Quote:

A traditional explanation of strategies in a Japanese martial arts context often involves a discussion of three levels of combat initiative: “go no sen,” “sen,” and “sensen no sen.” These strategies are defined as follows: “Go no sen,” meaning “late attack” involves a defensive or counter movement in response to an attack; “sen,” a defensive initiative launched simultaneously with the attack of the opponent; and “sensen no sen,” an initiative launched in anticipation of an attack where the opponent is fully committed to his attack and thus psychologically beyond the point of no return. The latter strategy is generally considered to be the highest level in the classical martial arts scenario.

The Founder’s concept of aiki strategy goes far beyond the dimension of psycho-physical confrontation. In an interview conducted in 1957, he expresses the concept in these words:

“It is not a question of either ‘sensen no sen’ or ‘sen no sen.’ If I were to try to verbalize it I would say that you control your opponent without trying to control him. That is, the state of continuous victory. There isn’t any question of winning over or losing to an opponent. In this sense, there is no opponent in aikido. Even if you have an opponent, he becomes a part of you, a partner you control only.”




Full article here:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=600

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#359817 - 09/09/07 05:25 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6772
thanks eyrie. In your opinion, is it a different strategy/concept from 'irimi'?

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#359818 - 09/09/07 08:28 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Is what a different strategy/concept? Are you asking if irimi = preemptive attack?

There is no "attack" (or "defense") in aikido. Just like there is no "opponent" in aikido. If there is no "opponent", wherefore the need for attack (preemptive or otherwise), or defense???

BTW, irimi is like reaching out to embrace an old friend.

So, I guess the answer is no, it's not the same thing.

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#359819 - 09/09/07 09:25 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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lol...thanks.

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#359820 - 09/09/07 09:32 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
yup... like Mr Miyagi say... "karate not for fighting"...
Aikido not for fighting.

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#359821 - 09/10/07 06:20 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
... another esoteric misdirection... ... no, redirection...

Quote:

"karate not for fighting"...


Must be why it was called "the dance of death"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#359822 - 09/10/07 07:15 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia


The problem is... I am comfortable with the paradox.

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#359823 - 09/10/07 07:46 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina

Me too... I was just havin' fun...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#359824 - 09/10/07 09:10 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'm still 'processing' eyrie's second post.

maybe he was hoping it would put me in an infinate loop and I'd implode. lol

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#359825 - 09/10/07 10:00 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
repeat after me "there is only blending..."

"there is only blending..."

"oooooooo"....

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#359826 - 09/10/07 10:51 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
"there is only blending...there is only blending..."

hey, this ain't workin' ! I want my money back!

screw training...I'm going back to the bottle

"there is only blending...{makes a magarita}...there is only blending...{hic}..."

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#359827 - 09/10/07 11:30 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ed,

Aikido is really very simple. The easiest way to understand it is to first let go of the idea that Aikido is something you do to someone - hence the reason I say it is NOT for fighting. Once you can get your head around that, the rest will fall into place. It's counter-intuitive.

Aikido is NOT for fighting. (The fact that you can and will at some point use it to defend yourself is immaterial, so ignore that for the moment).

The spiritual philosophy of Aikido exists for a reason. It is far easier to hurt someone than it is to let go of your ego and "love thy enemy as thyself", and to embrace and envelop him in the spirit of loving protection, peace and harmony. Which in real terms also means, being in harmony with the Universe (and therefore the universal laws of physics and nature).

When you "fight", the psycho-mental-physical tendency is to tense up and fight yourself. The body works on antagonistic muscle sets - to bend your arm, you must tense your bicep and relax your tricep. To extend your arm, you tense your tricep and relax your bicep. Yin and yang.

Why would you want to fight yourself as well as someone who is trying to hit you? Relax. You'll live longer. It is far easier to open and extend your hand in friendship than it is to embrace someone with a closed fist.

That is why there is no opponent in Aikido - he and I are one, and together we are one in the scheme of the Universe. Since there is no opponent, there is no need for attack or defense.

I think the mental paradigm shift is critical to fully appreciate what the old man is trying to say... aiki goes beyond sensen no sen because one is trying to connect and flow with the Universal flow. To control without controlling. The Daoist concept of wu-wei or non-action. He does to himself what he tries to do to the Universe....

Or as Grady said... blend... blend... blend....

Personally, I prefer "cut... cut... cut... join and cut, enter and cut, turn and cut".

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#359828 - 09/11/07 12:34 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you know I'm only a spectator of Aikido, since my boys started training in it - they love it BTW. They still look stiff as hell and awkward trying to erase their prior striking art habits, but it does take time.

anyway, we got into a conversation the other day about 'attacking when being attacked' - I couldn't comment on it from an Aikido perspective of course, but it made me wonder if there was a similar 'premptive' notion taught in Aiki arts as in striking arts. I would have thought it's a common tactic accross the board in most MA's...especially in Budo.

What you describe with so many words ( ) and minus all the 'one with the universe' stuff (I don't walk around all the time 'one with the universe' with perfect composure, controlled breathing, and in a walking state of Zazen - I'm usually late getting somewhere, and thinking about the 50 things I have to do. lol 'Koyonisquatsi' baby!) - it sounds similar to what I'm familiar (like I said, minus the mumbo-jumbo).

well, not that bad, but my point is I don't walk around with a monk-like mindset. my philosophy is simple, if I sense I'll be attacked, I'll try to act first. not necessarily with a strike - could be an offbalance check or whatever else.

so in order to understand your sphere of reality, first I have to be one with the universe? ok, I'll give that a shot...gimme till lunch tomorrow. "blending....universe...ohmmmm...."

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#359829 - 09/11/07 12:52 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
sorry, realized the last previous post was inflamitory....but you know how I am.

I'm not teaching them, their sensei is - and I'll be curious how he describes the concept of 'formless form' - with respect, I kinda hope he doesn't explain it the way you do. doesn't help, especially for a young teen. I realize the other end of the spectrum of a response: "if the bad guy does this, then do that" doesn't help in practicality either.

which is another reason I was curious about the subject from an Aikido take. How it's explained to a first year student.

no disrespect eyrie, WT...just having some fun while asking an honest question.

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#359830 - 09/11/07 02:16 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
No offense taken Ed... I'm bigger than that... like Universe "big"...

Look, I know it sounds all esoteric and sh!t3, but it's really not. It's very simple. Stop fighting. Stop even trying to. It won't work. Budo is never about fighting. The true meaning of Budo is to stop the spears. True budo is love - as in agape not the lovey, dovey, starry-eyed, "in love" BS.

Really, to understand Aikido, just stop fighting. It's really as simple as that. No big secret. Just stop fighting.

You cannot put Aikido in the same box as other martial arts. It just isn't the same thing. Stop fighting. Embrace your attacker with loving protection - just as you would a child who is having a hissy-fit, lashing out and chucking a tantrum. I can't get any simpler than that.

Quote:

How it's explained to a first year student.


Aikido not for fighting. Stop fighting with uke. Now Blend! Blend! Blend!

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#359831 - 09/11/07 06:35 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
I suggest that you first learn the exercises (warmup) and aiki-taisos of Aikido (ikkyo undo, funi koga undo, etc. ..the Aikido teacher can explain that) and then give it a go.

Just like there's no "home surgery kit", there's no "home Aikido kit" either. It takes some instruction and some practice other than casual observation.

I came from striking arts to Aikido, but luckily, I had ukemi training (force dissipation by falling) with Judo, so the transition was easier for me, but it's a different skill all together than hitting arts. Where karate is a "force delivery" art, Aikido is a "blending with the force" art, so your intent is different.

As Eyrie said, it's a different mental concept, and it's powerful. Strangely enough, as you train in karate, you reach the same type of methods and ideas as you get to "the top of your game", and actually do a lot of "Aikido-ish" things as you get into higher levels of karate.

I did a seminar about a month ago where I used karate as the attacking method of the uke when I was teaching. The simple act of redirecting the energy negated most of the dynamic of karate and completely destroyed it's "foundations" (stances). My "students" were 9th and 10th Dans, 2 6th Dans, and a couple of underbelts... and they all met with the same success against this different method... in a word, none.

What's interesting, is that the basic concept of Aikido is based on the same thing that karate is... the arm sword. Like different styles of karate, it's used differently in Aikido, and for different purposes. As Eyrie said, it's redirection and cutting (as in swordfighting), and the only thing that's actually different from karate is the footwork and redirection of force, rather than the delivery of force(if your karate is correct). Of course, there are "nuances" in it that are different, but you have to lose the skepticism for a few minutes and understand how to generate that "internal pressure" you argue against all the time (ki).

I would suggest going to class with your kids for a few weeks, and get a little instruction. You can probably trade off some Aikido training for karate training with the Aikido instructor. I think you'll enjoy it, and it might not be as frustrating once you have "peeped under the sheet".

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#359832 - 09/11/07 09:37 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
A month ago, before my awakening (only way I can look at it), what you wrote would have just been so many words. Now that I am beginning to understand, what you wrote makes complete sense.

Thank you. :-)

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#359833 - 09/11/07 07:28 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

it's a different mental concept, and it's powerful. Strangely enough, as you train in karate, you reach the same type of methods and ideas as you get to "the top of your game", and actually do a lot of "Aikido-ish" things as you get into higher levels of karate.


The higher you go in any of the Asian MAs, the more it becomes the same. It was certainly the case, when I trained with Pat McCarthy, Rick Clark and some high-level judo and jujitsu-ka. Apart from some very subtle and minor technical differences, the higher the level, the more indistinguishable it became.

It's certainly a very powerful concept. Pity it is so counter-intuitive....

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#359834 - 10/13/07 01:04 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: eyrie]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117

Sen Sen no Sen is found in the intial phase of combat: the psychological. This is the phase that both Ueshiba and Takeda Sogaku spoke about. Ueshiba spoke of it as ‘reading your opponents mind’, and harmonizing with them.

To control your opponent on this level, you have to get to the point where you can ‘size them up’ quickly. It’s fairly easy to do with drunks, not so easy (at least for me, at this stage) to do with competent, sober fighters.

As an example, putting up a boxing style guard give your opponent cues as to what you’re thinking. For this reason, there isn’t a guard in DR. Of course, sometimes it makes sense to put up a guard, (usually to trick the person into thinking that they’re in for a ‘straight fight’). Another easy way to explain this, is to purposely stick your chin way out, present an obvious target, and generally, your opponent will take it. This can then be shifted to a total body awareness, wherein you present targets to your opponent. From here, your movement will look like you’re moving at the same time and intercepting and blending with the attack.

I don’t think I’ve done a great job of explaining this, but it’ s the best I can do. What it comes down to, is that there is indeed a kind of first attack (if you want to think of it like that) in DR and Aikido. However, it’s a mental one, not a physical one.

It’s because of this concept that I think crosstraining at some point is important (though many disagree with me and they’re welcome to their opinions). But personally, I think it’s important to learn the common attacks of the time, and internalize methods of neutralizing them without throwing away the key concepts of your art.

My two cents.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (10/13/07 01:07 PM)
_________________________
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#359835 - 11/12/07 11:12 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ames]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Ueshiba spoke of it as ‘reading your opponents mind’




I've written many times about "intent" on the forums, and internalizing the opponent's intent is what O'Sensei was talking about. Like Bruce Lee's "way of the intercepting fist", Aikido is all about being in harmony with your opponents timing, breath, intent, and movement... becomeing "one with your opponent", so you see as he sees, think as he thinks, and move as he moves.

Quote:

It’s fairly easy to do with drunks, not so easy (at least for me, at this stage) to do with competent, sober fighters.




Ouch!... you have to ask if the drunk is holding on to the lamp post for illumination or support... no such mystery to competent, sober fighters. They provide all the energy you'll ever need if you're doing Aikido correctly, and they fly so well... Drunks just kind of "fall over" or stumble...

To be serious, if you want to take a quantum leap in your training, spend some time learning to do a sword step to avoid your opponent, and use it as deeply as you can move comfortably, and you will find those drunks fall on their own, and the competent, sober fighters aren't nearly as formidable as they once were... just a tip after 24 years of doing just that...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#359836 - 11/13/07 08:00 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ed_Morris]
A.J. Bryant Offline
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Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Ed,

We have sensen-no-sen in Hakko-ryu (Dentokan). These waza involve tori executing atemi or other distraction, then applying the technique prior to kake/uke initiating the attack.

As Ames can confirm, there are similar techniques in the basic Daito-ryu waza as well (118 shoden)--at least in the Tokimune lineage. Similar techniques were also practiced by Ueshiba sensei in pre-war Aikibudo (reference the Noma Dojo photos and the Asahi film) and the late Shioda sensei also taught similar waza. Many Aikido dojo that have a strong law enforcement influence also maintain such techniques, such as Bernie Lau’s Aikido derivative, Icho-ryu.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#359837 - 11/13/07 10:29 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: A.J. Bryant]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< spend some time learning to do a sword step to avoid your opponent, and use it as deeply as you can move comfortably, >>
Would that be a lunge?

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#359838 - 11/13/07 02:49 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: iaibear]
Anonymous
Unregistered


In japanese that would be an irimi Sorry couldn't help myself.

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#359839 - 11/13/07 11:44 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Ed,

We have sensen-no-sen in Hakko-ryu (Dentokan). These waza involve tori executing atemi or other distraction, then applying the technique prior to kake/uke initiating the attack.

As Ames can confirm, there are similar techniques in the basic Daito-ryu waza as well (118 shoden)--at least in the Tokimune lineage. Similar techniques were also practiced by Ueshiba sensei in pre-war Aikibudo (reference the Noma Dojo photos and the Asahi film) and the late Shioda sensei also taught similar waza. Many Aikido dojo that have a strong law enforcement influence also maintain such techniques, such as Bernie Lau’s Aikido derivative, Icho-ryu.



Thanks for the straightforward reply. Thats interesting to note the pre-war Aikibudo distinction. It's a simple concept. If you notice someone is about to do you harm, the trained-for instinct would be to preempt it before it gains full momentum.
We can think all the love and peace we want, but action is what matters in an unprovoked attack. non-action means you get hit. and, unfortunately, naiiveness and always looking for the peace in people would leave a defender in disbelief for a critical split second before reacting. Although on the other side of the spectrum, paranoia and over-sensitivity is probably more destructive than anything.
clearly, being balanced is key to 'sen sen-no sen' action.

I think thru the action of training over years is where the balanced peace comes from as a residual of training...it's not a pre-requisite to the Arts. therefore describing the concept of sen-no-sen as a mindset of 'not fighting' (as mentioned earlier) puts the cart in front of the horse.

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#359840 - 11/15/07 07:31 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Thanks for the straightforward reply. Thats interesting to note the pre-war Aikibudo distinction. It's a simple concept. If you notice someone is about to do you harm, the trained-for instinct would be to preempt it before it gains full momentum.
We can think all the love and peace we want, but action is what matters in an unprovoked attack. non-action means you get hit. and, unfortunately, naiiveness and always looking for the peace in people would leave a defender in disbelief for a critical split second before reacting. Although on the other side of the spectrum, paranoia and over-sensitivity is probably more destructive than anything.
clearly, being balanced is key to 'sen sen-no sen' action.

I think thru the action of training over years is where the balanced peace comes from as a residual of training...it's not a pre-requisite to the Arts. therefore describing the concept of sen-no-sen as a mindset of 'not fighting' (as mentioned earlier) puts the cart in front of the horse.




It is easy to take a small-minded and narrow perspective of something one does not understand, much less experienced it. If you believe that sensen no sen is the pinnacle of skill, then all the best to you. If you believe that 'not fighting' is putting the cart before the horse and that this mindset does not lead to a quicker way to grasp the essence and fundamental power of aikido, then all the best to you too.

After all, what do I know about aikido?... Apparently not much according to you - someone who has apparently done NO training in aikido.

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#359841 - 11/16/07 09:24 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
that's correct.

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#359842 - 11/16/07 10:20 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: iaibear]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< spend some time learning to do a sword step to avoid your opponent, and use it as deeply as you can move comfortably, >>

Never did find out what wristtwister meant by "sword step"


Edited by iaibear (11/16/07 10:23 AM)

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#359843 - 11/16/07 01:43 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: iaibear]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:


Never did find out what wristtwister meant by "sword step"




That would be an irimi (to enter)...or tsugiashi (sliding step) or a "hir-irimi" (not a japanese term) but an english way of combining hiraki (sidestep) with irimi (entering).


Edited by mtleboPGHYA (11/16/07 01:46 PM)

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#359844 - 11/16/07 10:52 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido?
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Shades of my checkered past, which includes six years of foil.

Thanks for the clarification.

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#359845 - 11/16/07 11:15 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Iaibear,
sorry I haven't responded to you, but I was pinned down in a different thread.

The sword step I'm talking about is actually an angular step off line, and then a pivot, done by drawing a large circle with your "trailing foot", and then re-setting your balance once it's behind you and your posture is a "wide hanmi". If anything, it's a tenkan, not irimi movement, but can actually be done to negotiate either kind of technique.

Follow these instructions exactly, and you'll figure it out when you smoothe out the motion...
step 45 degrees left with your left foot, leaving your heel slightly off the floor. On the ball of your foot, push your heel left, turning your hip toward your opponent. Then, with your big toe on your trailing leg, draw a circle around your body until you're facing the same direction as your opponent. Step as far back as you can with your trailing leg as you make the circle, and then, once it's behind you, re-establish your forward presence.

If you thrust forward with a sword (or bokken) as you make your angular step, and raise it as you make the circular step, you should be able to cut directly behind you "where you were standing". It's very similar to the ura version of shiho nage, but the distances are a little different.

I'll try to make a point to check this thread more closely if you have a problem with the instructions, or you can send me a pm and I'll get back with you about it. It's simple to do once you understand it, but it really changes the "depth" that you can attain in your techniques.

Again, I wasn't ignoring you, I just simply didn't get back to this thread as I was involved in a 15 page discussion in another thread.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#359846 - 11/17/07 06:50 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: wristtwister]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Quote:

The sword step I'm talking about is actually an angular step off line, and then a pivot, done by drawing a large circle with your "trailing foot", and then re-setting your balance once it's behind you and your posture is a "wide hanmi". If anything, it's a tenkan, not irimi movement, but can actually be done to negotiate either kind of technique.




During my Aikido days long ago in a galaxy far, far away, that was called irimi-tenkan.
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Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#359847 - 11/17/07 09:21 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: A.J. Bryant]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
wristtwister and Bryant

Thank you both very much for the details.
By coincidence we have been practicing a very similar move in class this week.

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