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#359835 - 11/12/07 11:12 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ames]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Ueshiba spoke of it as Ďreading your opponents mindí




I've written many times about "intent" on the forums, and internalizing the opponent's intent is what O'Sensei was talking about. Like Bruce Lee's "way of the intercepting fist", Aikido is all about being in harmony with your opponents timing, breath, intent, and movement... becomeing "one with your opponent", so you see as he sees, think as he thinks, and move as he moves.

Quote:

Itís fairly easy to do with drunks, not so easy (at least for me, at this stage) to do with competent, sober fighters.




Ouch!... you have to ask if the drunk is holding on to the lamp post for illumination or support... no such mystery to competent, sober fighters. They provide all the energy you'll ever need if you're doing Aikido correctly, and they fly so well... Drunks just kind of "fall over" or stumble...

To be serious, if you want to take a quantum leap in your training, spend some time learning to do a sword step to avoid your opponent, and use it as deeply as you can move comfortably, and you will find those drunks fall on their own, and the competent, sober fighters aren't nearly as formidable as they once were... just a tip after 24 years of doing just that...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#359836 - 11/13/07 08:00 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ed_Morris]
A.J. Bryant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 98
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
Ed,

We have sensen-no-sen in Hakko-ryu (Dentokan). These waza involve tori executing atemi or other distraction, then applying the technique prior to kake/uke initiating the attack.

As Ames can confirm, there are similar techniques in the basic Daito-ryu waza as well (118 shoden)--at least in the Tokimune lineage. Similar techniques were also practiced by Ueshiba sensei in pre-war Aikibudo (reference the Noma Dojo photos and the Asahi film) and the late Shioda sensei also taught similar waza. Many Aikido dojo that have a strong law enforcement influence also maintain such techniques, such as Bernie Lauís Aikido derivative, Icho-ryu.
_________________________
Andrew Bryant Rishinkan Dojo Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaido Dentokan Aiki Jujutsu

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#359837 - 11/13/07 10:29 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: A.J. Bryant]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< spend some time learning to do a sword step to avoid your opponent, and use it as deeply as you can move comfortably, >>
Would that be a lunge?

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#359838 - 11/13/07 02:49 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: iaibear]
Anonymous
Unregistered


In japanese that would be an irimi Sorry couldn't help myself.

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#359839 - 11/13/07 11:44 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: A.J. Bryant]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Ed,

We have sensen-no-sen in Hakko-ryu (Dentokan). These waza involve tori executing atemi or other distraction, then applying the technique prior to kake/uke initiating the attack.

As Ames can confirm, there are similar techniques in the basic Daito-ryu waza as well (118 shoden)--at least in the Tokimune lineage. Similar techniques were also practiced by Ueshiba sensei in pre-war Aikibudo (reference the Noma Dojo photos and the Asahi film) and the late Shioda sensei also taught similar waza. Many Aikido dojo that have a strong law enforcement influence also maintain such techniques, such as Bernie Lauís Aikido derivative, Icho-ryu.



Thanks for the straightforward reply. Thats interesting to note the pre-war Aikibudo distinction. It's a simple concept. If you notice someone is about to do you harm, the trained-for instinct would be to preempt it before it gains full momentum.
We can think all the love and peace we want, but action is what matters in an unprovoked attack. non-action means you get hit. and, unfortunately, naiiveness and always looking for the peace in people would leave a defender in disbelief for a critical split second before reacting. Although on the other side of the spectrum, paranoia and over-sensitivity is probably more destructive than anything.
clearly, being balanced is key to 'sen sen-no sen' action.

I think thru the action of training over years is where the balanced peace comes from as a residual of training...it's not a pre-requisite to the Arts. therefore describing the concept of sen-no-sen as a mindset of 'not fighting' (as mentioned earlier) puts the cart in front of the horse.

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#359840 - 11/15/07 07:31 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Thanks for the straightforward reply. Thats interesting to note the pre-war Aikibudo distinction. It's a simple concept. If you notice someone is about to do you harm, the trained-for instinct would be to preempt it before it gains full momentum.
We can think all the love and peace we want, but action is what matters in an unprovoked attack. non-action means you get hit. and, unfortunately, naiiveness and always looking for the peace in people would leave a defender in disbelief for a critical split second before reacting. Although on the other side of the spectrum, paranoia and over-sensitivity is probably more destructive than anything.
clearly, being balanced is key to 'sen sen-no sen' action.

I think thru the action of training over years is where the balanced peace comes from as a residual of training...it's not a pre-requisite to the Arts. therefore describing the concept of sen-no-sen as a mindset of 'not fighting' (as mentioned earlier) puts the cart in front of the horse.




It is easy to take a small-minded and narrow perspective of something one does not understand, much less experienced it. If you believe that sensen no sen is the pinnacle of skill, then all the best to you. If you believe that 'not fighting' is putting the cart before the horse and that this mindset does not lead to a quicker way to grasp the essence and fundamental power of aikido, then all the best to you too.

After all, what do I know about aikido?... Apparently not much according to you - someone who has apparently done NO training in aikido.

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#359841 - 11/16/07 09:24 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
that's correct.

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#359842 - 11/16/07 10:20 AM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: iaibear]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< spend some time learning to do a sword step to avoid your opponent, and use it as deeply as you can move comfortably, >>

Never did find out what wristtwister meant by "sword step"


Edited by iaibear (11/16/07 10:23 AM)

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#359843 - 11/16/07 01:43 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido? [Re: iaibear]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:


Never did find out what wristtwister meant by "sword step"




That would be an irimi (to enter)...or tsugiashi (sliding step) or a "hir-irimi" (not a japanese term) but an english way of combining hiraki (sidestep) with irimi (entering).


Edited by mtleboPGHYA (11/16/07 01:46 PM)

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#359844 - 11/16/07 10:52 PM Re: 'Sen Sen no Sen' in Aikido?
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Shades of my checkered past, which includes six years of foil.

Thanks for the clarification.

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