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#359740 - 09/07/07 06:30 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Wheres the proof of this statement. Ive done a bit of googling and found very little to support this, although not being much of a physicist its hard to find an answer when the question is so vague.




Read up on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle -

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-uncertainty/

While this does not strictly address the concept of spontaneous matter/energy production, it is related. It is an accepted fact in the Quantum physics world that matter/energy can appear and disappear at random. Although the more complex the system in question, the less likely it is significant.




I am not that high up on physics to fully understand the article but If I am correct it is based on theory not practical observation or experiment?

Electrons moving out of their orbits in to high or low energy states, the splitting of the atom (fission) releases energy as does ionization.

I think scientists have proven these things but to create energy/ matter from nothing ? Nothing being a vaccuum I presume?
Space is supposedly not empty from my readings therefore matter and energy wouldnt dissapear or reappear it might change perhaps?

Jude

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#359741 - 09/07/07 08:21 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MattJ]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884

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#359742 - 09/07/07 09:11 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MastaFighta]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Quote:

Give and explain one instance in which matter is destroyed. In addition, give and explain one instance in which matter is created from absolutely nothing.




Virtual particles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Basically a particle that comes into existance with borrowed energy (energy that doesn't exist) and then disappears just as quickly unless it come somehow "payback" that "energy loan." This is very, very, very basically what a virtual particle is.

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#359743 - 09/09/07 10:13 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: Christie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
I suppose it is asking too much to expect that definitive answers be somehow thrown up from all the arguements/theories put forward by members (however well read) in a MAs Forum in this area of cutting-edge physics where even cutting-edge physicists themselves reserve judgement.

The reason is obvious, if it is taken to be correct that SpaceTime, as we are told, came into being about 15,000,000,000 Earth Years ago and modern physics is at most about 500 Earth Years in the making? But please (and I am NOT being dismissive) don't let this stop the discussion.

Just to continue, I find it fascinating to be told by well-meaning physicists that each and every atom and therefore all it's formative sub-atomic particles (which have an uncanny tendency/ability to travel individually to the edge of the known Universe and back, seemingly in no time at all, and while it is there I can only tell it is "there" but not how fast it got "there" and vice versa?) were created and so existed since the presently accepted "Big Bang" event. So I therefore can declare that, from a Quantum POV, I, or at least my body (leaving out the problematic soul for the moment) am 15,000,000,000 Earth years old, give-or-take a couple of hundred million, depending on which physicist is the flavor of the month.

If only God was my physics teacher, then I wouldn't have to.....


Edited by ButterflyPalm (09/09/07 10:17 AM)
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359744 - 09/09/07 12:15 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
surely the BB is the beginning of what we think we know now, but there would have had to have been something to create the elements to go bang with.

The problem is whether time really exists except as a human concept to measure things by and to relate to our surroundings.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#359745 - 09/09/07 08:20 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: trevek]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
From what I have read (according to modern science), time does not exist as a seperate facet of reality. It is a product of our brain's ability to perceive vision ie; "focusing" and "tracking" impose linear time on our senses, since we can't view everything at once.

Quantum theory views time and space as one unit, existing "all at once", and if everything exists "all at once", time cannot exist - except in our minds.

JMO from what I have read, and I am not a physicist or scientist. I barely graduated high school.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#359746 - 09/10/07 06:53 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I'd go for that... I recall the last tournament I was in and it felt like the past, present and future punches were all landing on my head 'at once'
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#359747 - 09/27/08 12:46 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: trevek]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Though this thread has been dead awhile I thought it was interesting so I brought it back.
There is substantial evidence that the universe is expanding and will continue doing so indefinitely or for a hel.luva long time. It doesnt look like it'll come back in on itself and expand and contract for eternity. So then there is a definite beginning. So something had to start it all. Maybe we're an offshoot of another universe in a sea of universes (bubble theory) but then where did the first universe come from? Who the heck knows but saying it came from some unknown natural means is no less likely than saying it came from some eternal, perfect, inelligent, invisible man. Is that possible? Of course. But no more likely. Saying the universe(s) have always been here or have always been bulding on each other for eternity (whatever that means in reality) seems to me to be just as likely as anything. Eternity is hard to accept no matter what it is you're talking about-God or the universe itself.
Bubble theory and the multiverse are fascinating ideas if anyone is interested by the way.
One question I have is, is there such a thing as non-existence? I mean is "Nothing" really something? Or is it just an unrealistic concept like infinity? Maybe there has to be existence, and energy. Far as I know a vaccuum isnt non-existence. Empty space is technically something.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#359748 - 09/28/08 05:54 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: shadowkahn]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
Quote:

well if you read the bible you discover that it's one of the things God knows and might tell you when you die.




I love this idea that when you die God will sit you down on his knee and explain the how the whole universe works to you.

I imagine he will say that there was a second coming - he did visit earth again in human form and he called himself Douglas Adams. He then tried to explain how the universe worked but nobody took him seriously.

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#359749 - 09/28/08 08:40 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: puffadder]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Careful with Bible talk, or any religion talk, understandably it's not really allowed and the thread will be locked.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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