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#359730 - 09/05/07 01:27 PM No beginning and no end
Ads Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 37
I was caught in a debate today at work, "god vs science".

Eventually we hit a stale mate when we got to the big bang. My arguement was that if this was the beginning of it all, what caused the big bang? And what caused whatever caused the big bang etc etc.

My friend then said "why does there have to a beginning, why cant something just be.

And so, my question...how can something exist without having a beginning or an end?

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#359731 - 09/05/07 02:55 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: Ads]
shadowkahn Offline
anti-stupid crusader

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 234
well if you read the bible you discover that it's one of the things God knows and might tell you when you die.

If you read about quantum physics you discover that the old line about matter/energy can't be created or destroyed is false. Matter is in fact created all the time. Particles boil up from the nothingness, and then annihilate again. There's a theory that everything we see is due to a (or some) particle(s) appearing, and then failing to annihilate.

There's another theory that time is a closed loop and therefore the universe doesn't actually have a beginning. Of course, this theory fails to explain how the loop got there
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#359732 - 09/05/07 09:01 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: Ads]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
...instead of thinking in terms of linear time, try to imagine non-linear time.

about no begin and no end, try this: a strip of regular paper always has two sides right? not necessarily.

take a long strip of paper by both ends and 1/2 twist one end. then put and hold the two ends together with one hand. with the other hand, trace your finger along the surface, following the curves while never losing contact with the surface. your finger will end up where it started....which proves paper can have 1 side - just depends how you look at it.

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#359733 - 09/06/07 02:01 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: Ads]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



And so, my question...how can something exist without having a beginning or an end?




From my studies the big bang is a theory (guess).
It isnt provable. It seems a good reason to sell a lot of merchandise and pay certain people big saleries.I think this is the kind of question where no answer exists like why are we here?

From my studies it seems a lot of physicists(science) believe God(religion) exists. I suppose that would limit debates that dont realy have answers which is where your friends comments comes in.

Jude

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#359734 - 09/06/07 02:09 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: Ads]
MastaFighta Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
Quote:

I was caught in a debate today at work, "god vs science".

Eventually we hit a stale mate when we got to the big bang. My arguement was that if this was the beginning of it all, what caused the big bang? And what caused whatever caused the big bang etc etc.

My friend then said "why does there have to a beginning, why cant something just be.

And so, my question...how can something exist without having a beginning or an end?



Interesting enough, there's evidence that the big bang wasn't the beginning and that time existed before it.

In my opinion, there is no such thing as a beginning or end. Many would say that being born is the beginning and dieing is the end, however what is there to say that is correct?

Before the baby is the fetus.
Before the fetus is the egg.
Before the egg is the sperm.
Before the sperm is the germ cell.
Before the germ cell is the primordial germ cell.

Eventually going all the way back to energy. However, if energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed, then this would mean that the energy that supposedly started this lengthy process came from something else. Whatever that something else is, it was created from energy that came from another thing, and so on.

When we die, our bodies decompose by means of bacteria, insects, etcetera. However, I'll use insects as an example. The insects convert our body's matter into energy for them to use, then the insect is eventually eaten. Eventually the thing that ate the insect is eaten, and so on.

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#359735 - 09/06/07 09:45 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MastaFighta]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
The only answer to this question, and the God debate for that matter. The ONLY correct answer, is that we just don't know. We simply cannot decide 100% one way or the other because there is always evidence to the contrary.
What is difficult for humans to understand however, is that before the big bang, there was no time, since time and space are so tightly woven together. There was also no space. It wasn't as if the universe exploded into this big empty black space, it created the space and the time, very strange but proven by physics. So there was nothing before the big bang, but ony as far as we know. The truth is that humans only have a very small amount of knowledge when it comes to these questions, so to answer decisively one way or the other is probably foolish.
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#359736 - 09/06/07 11:52 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: jkdwarrior]
MattJ Offline
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Excellent post, jkdwarrior. That is my understanding, too.
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#359737 - 09/06/07 03:12 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MattJ]
Ads Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 37
"If you read about quantum physics you discover that the old line about matter/energy can't be created or destroyed is false. Matter is in fact created all the time. Particles boil up from the nothingness, and then annihilate again. There's a theory that everything we see is due to a (or some) particle(s) appearing, and then failing to annihilate."

Wheres the proof of this statement. Ive done a bit of googling and found very little to support this, although not being much of a physicist its hard to find an answer when the question is so vague.

Also, if energy can be created and destroyed, how could be be related to MA. If energy can be destroyed, can we somehow perform this act. Sounds a bit sci-fi but so does no touch KO's and some people find PP's hard to believe.

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#359738 - 09/06/07 03:40 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: shadowkahn]
MastaFighta Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
Quote:

If you read about quantum physics you discover that the old line about matter/energy can't be created or destroyed is false. Matter is in fact created all the time. Particles boil up from the nothingness, and then annihilate again. There's a theory that everything we see is due to a (or some) particle(s) appearing, and then failing to annihilate.



Give and explain one instance in which matter is destroyed. In addition, give and explain one instance in which matter is created from absolutely nothing.

As for the "old line", "matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed", that is only part of it. The part you're missing is, "it can however, change form".

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#359739 - 09/06/07 03:45 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: Ads]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Wheres the proof of this statement. Ive done a bit of googling and found very little to support this, although not being much of a physicist its hard to find an answer when the question is so vague.




Read up on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle -

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-uncertainty/

While this does not strictly address the concept of spontaneous matter/energy production, it is related. It is an accepted fact in the Quantum physics world that matter/energy can appear and disappear at random. Although the more complex the system in question, the less likely it is significant.
_________________________
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#359740 - 09/07/07 06:30 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Wheres the proof of this statement. Ive done a bit of googling and found very little to support this, although not being much of a physicist its hard to find an answer when the question is so vague.




Read up on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle -

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-uncertainty/

While this does not strictly address the concept of spontaneous matter/energy production, it is related. It is an accepted fact in the Quantum physics world that matter/energy can appear and disappear at random. Although the more complex the system in question, the less likely it is significant.




I am not that high up on physics to fully understand the article but If I am correct it is based on theory not practical observation or experiment?

Electrons moving out of their orbits in to high or low energy states, the splitting of the atom (fission) releases energy as does ionization.

I think scientists have proven these things but to create energy/ matter from nothing ? Nothing being a vaccuum I presume?
Space is supposedly not empty from my readings therefore matter and energy wouldnt dissapear or reappear it might change perhaps?

Jude

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#359741 - 09/07/07 08:21 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MattJ]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884

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#359742 - 09/07/07 09:11 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MastaFighta]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Quote:

Give and explain one instance in which matter is destroyed. In addition, give and explain one instance in which matter is created from absolutely nothing.




Virtual particles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Basically a particle that comes into existance with borrowed energy (energy that doesn't exist) and then disappears just as quickly unless it come somehow "payback" that "energy loan." This is very, very, very basically what a virtual particle is.

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#359743 - 09/09/07 10:13 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: Christie]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
I suppose it is asking too much to expect that definitive answers be somehow thrown up from all the arguements/theories put forward by members (however well read) in a MAs Forum in this area of cutting-edge physics where even cutting-edge physicists themselves reserve judgement.

The reason is obvious, if it is taken to be correct that SpaceTime, as we are told, came into being about 15,000,000,000 Earth Years ago and modern physics is at most about 500 Earth Years in the making? But please (and I am NOT being dismissive) don't let this stop the discussion.

Just to continue, I find it fascinating to be told by well-meaning physicists that each and every atom and therefore all it's formative sub-atomic particles (which have an uncanny tendency/ability to travel individually to the edge of the known Universe and back, seemingly in no time at all, and while it is there I can only tell it is "there" but not how fast it got "there" and vice versa?) were created and so existed since the presently accepted "Big Bang" event. So I therefore can declare that, from a Quantum POV, I, or at least my body (leaving out the problematic soul for the moment) am 15,000,000,000 Earth years old, give-or-take a couple of hundred million, depending on which physicist is the flavor of the month.

If only God was my physics teacher, then I wouldn't have to.....


Edited by ButterflyPalm (09/09/07 10:17 AM)
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#359744 - 09/09/07 12:15 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
surely the BB is the beginning of what we think we know now, but there would have had to have been something to create the elements to go bang with.

The problem is whether time really exists except as a human concept to measure things by and to relate to our surroundings.
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#359745 - 09/09/07 08:20 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: trevek]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
From what I have read (according to modern science), time does not exist as a seperate facet of reality. It is a product of our brain's ability to perceive vision ie; "focusing" and "tracking" impose linear time on our senses, since we can't view everything at once.

Quantum theory views time and space as one unit, existing "all at once", and if everything exists "all at once", time cannot exist - except in our minds.

JMO from what I have read, and I am not a physicist or scientist. I barely graduated high school.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#359746 - 09/10/07 06:53 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I'd go for that... I recall the last tournament I was in and it felt like the past, present and future punches were all landing on my head 'at once'
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#359747 - 09/27/08 12:46 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: trevek]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Though this thread has been dead awhile I thought it was interesting so I brought it back.
There is substantial evidence that the universe is expanding and will continue doing so indefinitely or for a hel.luva long time. It doesnt look like it'll come back in on itself and expand and contract for eternity. So then there is a definite beginning. So something had to start it all. Maybe we're an offshoot of another universe in a sea of universes (bubble theory) but then where did the first universe come from? Who the heck knows but saying it came from some unknown natural means is no less likely than saying it came from some eternal, perfect, inelligent, invisible man. Is that possible? Of course. But no more likely. Saying the universe(s) have always been here or have always been bulding on each other for eternity (whatever that means in reality) seems to me to be just as likely as anything. Eternity is hard to accept no matter what it is you're talking about-God or the universe itself.
Bubble theory and the multiverse are fascinating ideas if anyone is interested by the way.
One question I have is, is there such a thing as non-existence? I mean is "Nothing" really something? Or is it just an unrealistic concept like infinity? Maybe there has to be existence, and energy. Far as I know a vaccuum isnt non-existence. Empty space is technically something.
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#359748 - 09/28/08 05:54 AM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: shadowkahn]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
Quote:

well if you read the bible you discover that it's one of the things God knows and might tell you when you die.




I love this idea that when you die God will sit you down on his knee and explain the how the whole universe works to you.

I imagine he will say that there was a second coming - he did visit earth again in human form and he called himself Douglas Adams. He then tried to explain how the universe worked but nobody took him seriously.

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#359749 - 09/28/08 08:40 PM Re: No beginning and no end [Re: puffadder]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Careful with Bible talk, or any religion talk, understandably it's not really allowed and the thread will be locked.
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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