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#359491 - 09/03/07 11:43 PM Room clearing and CQB
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
What techniques and tactics are most commonly used in room clearing and CQB inside of buildings? Do they work well and what can go wrong?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#359492 - 09/03/07 11:54 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Quick Reaction Riflemanship.

You might need to work a little on your grappling, as you might need some close range skills, especially for detaining an EPW.

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#359493 - 09/04/07 12:18 AM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
EPW? Yeah I assume the best strategy in unarmed combat is throw some strikes to vulnerable points, takedown, and somehow finish.
Actually if it comes to that I'll pull a pistol or worst case a knife.
In war the grappling is less important to just knockout strikes and trapping I would think though I haven't yet been in that sort of situation so how would I kmow.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#359494 - 09/04/07 12:57 AM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
EPW= Enemy Prisoner of War. You strike with your weapon. Grappling is more important, because anyone you might have to struggle with will a) probably be injured already, and b) you will probably have searched already.

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#359495 - 09/04/07 01:07 AM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Ah I see. Hey how would you say Marine Corps infantry compares to Army? I think they are better quality troops in the USMC but not as well equipped.
Did I ask that before? lol
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#359496 - 09/04/07 02:10 AM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
The MC at the infantry level is tougher than the Army. However, a lot of jokes are made about the intelligence of the average Marine. The Army is trying to fight smarter, not harder. The MC is the tip of the spear, the Army is the guy pushing the spear in.

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#359497 - 09/04/07 10:51 AM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Stormdragon]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Quote:

What techniques and tactics are most commonly used in room clearing and CQB inside of buildings? Do they work well and what can go wrong?




Button hook, j hook, slicing the pie, high-low technique are just a few. It really depends on the mission and what is being accomplished. If an SRT does an entry it might be to flood the room with team-members using judicious applied force. If it is a military mission then the application of force is going to be different with different requirements.

Kel
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Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#359498 - 09/04/07 12:56 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: hunterkell]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
For instance, we could be talking about a "cordon and search" as opposed to a "hard raid". A cordon and search means there is suspected enemy in the building, whereas a hard raid means that there is confirmed enemy, and the ROE are totally different.

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#359499 - 09/04/07 08:11 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Any chance you all could explain those techniques? Buttonhook? What?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#359500 - 09/04/07 08:57 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Just, wait until you get into training. They are all tactics for entering a room and clearing. You'll learn the really basic stuff in Basic, more advanced stuff in AIT, and some really good stuff in Ranger School. I think it would be best if you waited so you don't come off as an arrogant jerk in all these schools, which is actually a quick way to fail out.

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#359501 - 09/05/07 10:03 AM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
And to follow up on what Bush said, there are different ways to do the same thing; it really depends on where you learn you tactics. Therefore, you don't want to go into a training scenario and have to unlearn stuff that you have taught yourself or heard about on the net...

Besides-you should be running.

K
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#359502 - 09/06/07 06:32 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: hunterkell]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
even worse, you can get somebody killed. learn what your comanders want to teach you, and learn the SOP's your team is using.

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#359503 - 09/06/07 10:49 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: globetrotter]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Normally, if you follow your protocols, you'll be fine... but we've had people almost get shot during live fire training because "newbies" didn't take the time to figure out the "when to's" before charging in and opening up...

You have to be careful out there, and if you aren't "clear" to the target, you aren't clear to shoot... One of my buddies had a newbie on his squad that damn near shot people 3 times during one two-day exercise. I'm all for "leading the team"... but I'm not much for the team shooting me up in the process... You have to learn to look in both directions at once, especially during live fire exercises... You don't even make it to the field if your team isn't solid.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#359504 - 09/15/07 05:37 AM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: wristtwister]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Points taken. I'll leve it to the experts.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#359505 - 09/28/07 05:19 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Stormdragon]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

What techniques and tactics are most commonly used in room clearing and CQB inside of buildings? Do they work well and what can go wrong?




I'd say TEAM WORK and training and more training. The situtaion would be different depending what you are trying to do. Search for a single felony, Hostage rescue or armed Group of sucidial hostiles. Effective short range weapons like the MP5s or Cars or shotgun or pistols, lighting important when used appropiately, the use of gas to disarray, distract or disable, creating an element of surprise like the use of flash bombs could help. Accurate knowledge of how many, if professionally/military trained, what they are armed with and where they are positioned would help.

CQB is usually a butt stroke from the machine gun or shotgun, a knee and the suspect is handcuff, mouth tapped and drugged toward the back or out of the bldg. If he not shot 1st and then butt stroked, kneed.... Armed you really do very little h2h, you don't want that in a Gun fight.

Worse case scenario is, if they see you before you see them thats bad news. Or they lay a trap and get you in a cross fire. Of course a slow accurate bldg. clearing should have solved that. There's something called a calculated casulty risk thats surveyed by the brass, its always possible in a worse case situation especially with barricade armed non-negotiating, hostiles.


Edited by Neko456 (09/28/07 05:22 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#359506 - 09/29/07 12:38 AM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Neko456]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So basically suprise, speed, violent action, accuracy, and complete coverage.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#359507 - 09/29/07 04:53 AM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Stormdragon]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
And teamwork. Don't forget teamwork. You have to depend upon your battle buddies.

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#359508 - 09/29/07 01:15 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Oh yeah thats essential, be able to trust and rely on your team members and be in sync.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#359509 - 09/29/07 10:03 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Stormdragon]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
yeah, but every team will have a different way of doing it - and the single hardest part is getting 3-6 guys working in sinc so that nobody, but the bad guys, gets hurt.

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#359510 - 09/30/07 01:56 AM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: globetrotter]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
globetrotter, we always manage to find some down time to spend in the day room training. We can at least get the basics down. It's as simple as any martial art, you just got to keep training it.

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#359511 - 10/01/07 04:12 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

globetrotter, we always manage to find some down time to spend in the day room training. We can at least get the basics down. It's as simple as any martial art, you just got to keep training it.




I understand, what I mean is that every team does it differently. I am sure that you do it very differenlty from teh way I did it - I would even say that the guys who are direct descendants, in training, from the people I taught 20 years ago do it differently to the way I did it. and if you aren't in sinc, somebody will get hurt.

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#359512 - 10/02/07 08:47 PM Re: Room clearing and CQB [Re: globetrotter]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Now, that's true. You've got to practice together, and more than once every six months when you get the range, to get a feel for how everyone else does it.

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