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#359479 - 09/06/07 09:59 AM Re: My no touch thesis [Re: underdog]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

With the interest in science expressed, does it at all matter that Darren has not done a hyno way NTKO? With all the respect I have for Darren for sharing information with me, this one stickler point bothers me. I'm actually surprised that no one else has even asked. Just curious, has ANYONE done a hypno way NTKO and if so, could you post a clip?




First, I don't see any evidence of there being 2-ways to do a NTKO. In the author's words:
Quote:

I am the originator of the article mentioned in another section....and there is only the hypno way in my opinion... the problem is there are two groups of people perpetrating these no-touches
1) those who know the score and do it anyway for a fast buck.
2) those who learnt a procedure from their masters and follow that procedure and truely believe they are doing what they say.... and yes I would put a great gentleman previously mentioned in that category.

The only reason why I referred to it as the Hypno way was so i wouldn't get kicked off the kyushospace forum.





So my question to you would be, since any video we've ever seen of ANY NTKO falls squarly into the category of Darrin's article...find a video of a NTKO that is performed on a blindfolded stranger who is neither a student nor has vested interest in the result.


Fact: Nobody has done 'No Touch' anything under monitored double-blind test conditions. (If you claim there has, please cite your source).

Fact: There are videos of people claiming and demonstrating NTKO, but all successful demonstrations were exclusively done on students. Whenever it's attempted on a non-believing outsider, excuses are made for it's failure.

Thats pretty wide-reaching evidence there is only one way to KO someone without touching them: which is by using pre-conditioned psychological methods. ie: The uke has to believe it, in order for a NTKO to work.



Therefore, to answer you question: watch any NTKO video. They all fit within Darren's article. Dillman's video is out there (he can't perform it on non-students), plus the Karate vs. NTKO master in Japan vid is out there (the no touch master loses horribly), ....

So the real question is, if you can find a video of a NON-hypno NTKO method (on an unbelieving stranger), then please post that vid!

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#359480 - 09/06/07 10:04 AM Re: My no touch thesis [Re: underdog]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

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#359481 - 09/06/07 12:17 PM Re: My no touch thesis [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Underdog, I was perplexed by your question to. The implication from your question is that NTKO (outside of these hypno induced phenomena) actually exist.

There has never been any proof to suggest this and the article that Darren wrote, unless you are seeing something differently, clearly states that he thinks it is trickery and does not have any metaphysical basis to it. This will work on only those who allow themselves to be knocked out through this hypnotic effect and not on an unwilling participant.

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#359482 - 09/06/07 12:36 PM Re: My no touch thesis [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

congratualations though, you're doing a good job of giving an excuse to getting the thread locked...which is what many people would like, I'm sure.




My goal in this was to have you apply the same standard to the ideomotor theory that you apply to every chi discussion. If it's science, and not theory, then prove it... otherwise, it could be caused by rays from a space alien and not ideomotor responses.

The only double blind test going on here is you shutting both eyes when you put this supposed explanation for NTKOs out... and for the record, I don't think I've ever puported that they were even possible... but IF they work, it's from the pressure point sequences in the autonomic nervous system.

While "science" seems to be perfectly willing to accept that acupuncture works on points in the autonomic nervous system, the parallel "science" of pressure points is discounted by the same people. I'd just like for you guys to apply the same standard to both questions without all the "charlatan" accusations and psychological mumbo-jumbo to further confuse the issue.

My son is a perfect example of a hypnotic subject... and you could probably cause him to pass out from looking at his own picture if you placed that suggestion while he's under hypnosis... but the idea that ideomotor responses are responsible for NTKOs or anything else isn't a proven fact from anything I've read so far... it's still a theory. Just because you can get "automatic writing" and "dowsing" movements from people under hypnosis, it doesn't give license to explain any other phenomenon unless you have proof that it's being caused by the same thing... and unfortunately, "I think" isn't "scientific proof"... right along with "I believe"...

Just be consistent... if NTKOs are caused by deception and hypnotic suggestion... prove it. You seem all too willing to force the other side of the argument to do so...

And, seriously, I'd like to have a real answer for this. So far, it's been like arguing with the weather...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#359483 - 09/06/07 01:24 PM Re: My no touch thesis [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA


Now I'm really lost.

Quote:

but IF they work, it's from the pressure point sequences in the autonomic nervous system.




??????

Don't pressure points require contact? How can this have anything to do with NTKO? It seems pretty conclusive to me, that outside of hypno NTKO, they simply don't exist.

And Grady, it's not a valid argument for you to say "prove it" when the burden of proof is on the ones making the claim. The evidence so far seems to indicate that NTKO is not possible without the assistance (one way or the other) of the participant. We have already "proved it", and are waiting for proof from the other side.


Edited by MattJ (09/06/07 01:29 PM)
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#359484 - 09/06/07 01:35 PM Re: My no touch thesis [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
WT, I need more data to answer your question...here's what I need:
Someone winning the Randi $1,000,000 challenge prize.


Whoever makes ANY claim, bears the responsibility to prove it...it's not everyone elses responsibility to disprove it.

just using occam's razor logic in this case:
If only failure exists, with no proof positives, then the most likely is the most likely.


and btw, why do you keep mentioning the 'chi/ki' buzzword as an explaination to everything? why not the power of chakras? divine intervention? spirit of our ancestors? aliens using our bodies as hosts?
hmmmm?


another question for the author: When was the first NTKO claim publicized? I'm guessing early 1970's...right around the time cults were mutiplying.

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#359485 - 09/06/07 05:43 PM Re: My no touch thesis [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Another thing that might be worth considering is looking at the subject using the very model that NTKO's are described with.

The NTKO is explained by its supporters as the manipulation of Qi. The classics tell us "Where the Yi goes Qi will follow!". Yi is often translated to intention. Therefore Qi is moved using our own intention, or an active thought process on our part. From a Oriental Medicine point of view (the model used to describe NTKO's by supporters) in order for me to influence a persons energetics they need to be willing to open themselves up energetically to me. There is a phenomenon in both Western and Eastern medicine called the therapeutic relationship, whereby the patient puts them self in the care of the practitioner. Therefore there is a state of required exceptence on the part of the receiver that they will be manipulated, if not they stick the barriers up to protect themselves.

In ALL the PP LTKO's and NTKO's I have seen the recipients have always been "energetically" open to the desired results. This is another argument I have against why you'd practice these stuff. Fight or Flight effects the energetics of someones ability to respond to danger as well which just isn't replicated in these sorts of demo.

Kinda lost the point I was trying to make, but I suppose I'm saying that from an Eastern point of view, IMHO, both NTKO's and LTKO's can be seen as self inflicted also.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#359486 - 09/06/07 05:50 PM Re: My no touch thesis [Re: wristtwister]
dazzacarmichael Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 4
Its not that there may be chi... that is not the question...there may very well be chi... the question is do you require it to explain the phenomena.. and you don't... we must apply Ockham's Razor in the analysis of these phenomena... we must e as economical with our theories as possible... we must not add to our theories that does not need to be there.. and if we do add that which does not need to be there we must ask our motivation why we have added it in the first place and for qi the motivation is the proof we require for a greater dimension to life ...the proof we require for the existence of the spiritual.. do we truly think we can find the inner dimensions of existence through the crass mechanism of knocking people out at a distance do we really think they are the mysterious ways the divine would move in... NTKO's are applied stage hypnotism we must come to terms with it and look for divinity in the hearts of good people not in the palms of charlatans.
all the best darren

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#359487 - 09/06/07 08:06 PM Re: My no touch thesis [Re: Gavin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Gavin,
I don't like "sitting duck" techniques of any kind... knockouts or not. You have to be a complete idiot to simply stand there and let somebody do brain damage to you.

Fighting techniques are actually what the knockouts are all about, and while a NTKO might be possible, in a fighting situation, it's highly unlikely. If for no other reason, the fact that both persons are "extending ki" would make it unlikely, and if you're doing a "hitting points" knockout, you have to make physical contact... hence no NTKO. It doesn't have anything to do with ideomotor effects and responses, but simply that if both people are extending ki, the resultant isn't going to be one of them absorbing it and being knocked out.Now, there are other forms of excitation that can be used... such as vibration, gravity, springing... but they all require contact with the recipient.

Like "fa jing" punching, where instead of the body being pushed back, it collapses around the fist and then springs outward away from the fist, extending ki has essentially that same effect. It drives the attachment away from the connection point in the direction that it's being extended mechanically however it's applied to the limbs involved.

I teach students that your arms have two directions of rotation, and if the elbows are locked, it's one set of techniques, if bent, it's a different set. While there's a "mechanical element" to it, extending ki in the technique is what makes it what it is. I teach them as "palms up" and "palms down" structures, and if simply extending ki would make the technique work, I'd be invincible... but I have to have contact to make anything work like that.

Now, there are some LTKO's that don't require much contact at all, but it's still "heavier" contact than the "point and pass out" NTKOs I've seen in videos... and most of them, as you say, are someone standing there "waiting to be knocked out".

How we describe the techniques, the effects of them, and the execution of them clearly affects the "believeability" of them. In 45 years, I've had lots of different experiences in martial arts, but I've never had a legitimate instructor tell me that all I had to do to knock somebody out is to extend ki. I believe that you can execute some techniques without touching, because I've had it happen... but whether I simply moved out of the way "better" than I expected, my timing was better than expected, or what, I have no idea. It certainly isn't a "repeatable on demand" ability that I have... but it has happened.

I think your take on the NTKOs and their description is pretty accurate.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#359488 - 09/06/07 08:21 PM Re: My no touch thesis [Re: Ed_Morris]
madninja Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 6
Quote:

using occam's razor logic in this case:

what about the power of chakras? divine intervention? spirit of our ancestors? aliens using our bodies?

hmmmm?






Wow, that was enlightening.

I think we have our wires crossed somewhere.

And you must get a really suicidal alien host if he's just making you fall over everywhere.

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