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#359282 - 09/02/07 09:33 PM Re: Interesting read on idea's behind NTKO's [Re: underdog]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I was only asking if there was any other type of NTKO than that described in Darren's article....which you alluded to that there IS something - giving the impression there is a fake NTKO and a real NTKO.

but if you don't wish to answer, I understand...since a discussion on religious beliefs would be off-topic.

one thing I do know for a fact, is that there is no reported reproducable ability of anyone that NTKO'd someone who didn't believe in it. same with faith healing, same with no touch ki/chi claims, same with telekinesis.

and if that's the case, then it has no application in martial arts and certainly not self-defense. to teach that it does, is irresponsible.

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#359283 - 09/02/07 09:46 PM Re: Interesting read on idea's behind NTKO's [Re: Ed_Morris]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
I agree.

Imagine someone hastily trying to apply NTKO in a Self Defense situation!

I think they would be (marginally) better off closing their eyes tightly and hoping that it does in fact make them invisible. (At least they won't suffer the stress of seeing an incoming blow).
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#359284 - 09/03/07 08:15 AM Re: Interesting read on idea's behind NTKO's [Re: GriffyGriff]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
http://www.kyushospace.com/forum.aspx?id_forum=3&id_category=5&id_topic=125. Here is the link to Darren's original post. If you want to dialogue with him, you will have to go to Kyusho space. Darren is someone for whom I have a lot of respect. Here is the link to his Kyushospace profile. http://www.kyushospace.com/profile.aspx?id_user=119.

You will note exponents of the NTKO in his list of people who influence him. If you want the straight story, ask Renshi Carmichael.

Yes I know I'm way in the minority on fighting arts for believing in the NTKO and usually I don't allow discussion of it. Usually the only people who want to discuss NTKO are 12 year olds who have been throwing chi balls at all the family pets and their younger brothers in hopes of knocking something out. What do you want? I study with Evan Pantazi and it is a great learning experience. I envied his students for years while I worked my butt off studying with them to get to this point where I could get into his class myself.

It isn't like I "train" for the NTKO. That would be a waist of my time. It isn't a combat technique and at this point in my life, I just want to train stuff that will make me a better fighter or in better physical condition. You know, like I train high kicks even though I'd never use them in a fight, just for the physical conditioning.

I also know that there is a lot of BS out there. I regret that BS is profitable. I acknowledge that it is hard for those of us of lesser skill to ferret out what is BS from what is genuine sometimes. I know that the people talking about NTKOs on forums are not the folks who can do them. Therefore, the "can do" people have their reasons for keeping a low profile and I'm not going to learn too much from talking to people who can't do them. At the forum level, it becomes an artical of martial arts mythology, in many ways, like religious faith. I have no reason to convert anyone regarding NTKO. I know nothing and can pursuade you of nothing. Therefore, I respect your disbelief. Please refrain from ridicule/disrepect of mine.

Darren's ideas have been posted on at least two forums without his knowledge. This was done, I believe, because people found his ideas well researched and of integrity. I'd humbly suggest that if you are not matching his quality, and you are disrespectful, you run the risk of sounding like the 12 year old with his cat.
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#359285 - 09/03/07 10:33 AM Re: Interesting read on idea's behind NTKO's [Re: underdog]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Rosanne, obviously you no my stance NTKO's and I know yours so I won't get into that. I've read Darren's comments and I'm puzzled as to if he is or isn't referring to two different types of NTKO? I really liked the article inasmuch that it followed the same thinking that my own experience has led me to believe about the various types of K.O's I've seen performed. I find the separating of the two sitting on the fence and a disappointing conclusion to an otherwise excellent article.
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#359286 - 09/03/07 10:57 AM Re: Interesting read on idea's behind NTKO's [Re: underdog]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Yes I know I'm way in the minority on fighting arts for believing in the NTKO and usually I don't allow discussion of it.





I can see why you might not want to allow discussion. But I can see where limiting discussion isn't entirely a good thing either of course.

But I have a question; what purpose does training for a no touch knock-out serve?

I am asking because personally, I don't buy into the NTKO. Pure fantasy in my opinion. That said, if you're training it for self-defense or to be a better fighter, I believe it's a complete waste of time. I believe there are better uses of our time and ultimately, it may not even be a healthy pursuit.

Might there be ANOTHER reason for the training - other than self-defense? Or do you honestly feel that such training is practical for self-defense/fighting purposes?

I'm sincerely curious because it's not every day that you find an adult "believer" - and I mean no offense by saying that.


Quote:


Usually the only people who want to discuss NTKO are 12 year olds who have been throwing chi balls at all the family pets and their younger brothers in hopes of knocking something out.





I can certainly understand that. You know how kids are more easily "influenced" by things. But I suppose the truth of the matter is, throwing a chi-ball is the only way to knock a person out without touching them.

Now with that said, let us all sit back and contemplate the idea of a ball of chi being thrown at someone, with the ability to knock a person out for a moment.

The first question that comes to mind is, how close does one have to be?

Secondly, could people "throw" from greater distances once they've achieved a greater degree of mastery?

Third, does everything have to be "perfect" to throw the energy? (like a person's TOE pointing in the right direction, the moon in a certain state and the planets being in the right "sign"?)

It may be tempting to think of those questions as just me being smart-alecy. However, I am being completely serious. If people expect us to believe the fantastic notion of being able to knock someone out without touching them, they should certainly be ready to field such equally fantastic questions, correct?

Is this where the topic might fall into the "not allowable" category perhaps? I find this is typically the case although I'm sincere in my pursuit of this.


Quote:


I study with Evan Pantazi and it is a great learning experience. I envied his students for years while I worked my butt off studying with them to get to this point where I could get into his class myself.





What MAKES it such a great learning experience? What made you "envy his students"? Do you test all theories? If so, how? Under what kinds of pressure?


Quote:


It isn't like I "train" for the NTKO. That would be a waist of my time.





Why would that be? Isn't that one of the more fundamental or "core" pursuits of your study with this person? If not, what IS?


Quote:


It isn't a combat technique and at this point in my life, I just want to train stuff that will make me a better fighter or in better physical condition.





I can understand wanting to be in better physical condition, but I can't see how to become a "better fighter" WITHOUT "combat techniques".


Quote:


You know, like I train high kicks even though I'd never use them in a fight, just for the physical conditioning.





Certainly. Nothing wrong with that. I envy folks who have great flexibility like that.


Quote:


I also know that there is a lot of BS out there. .....

.... I know that the people talking about NTKOs on forums are not the folks who can do them.





It would seem to me, that the one's who could do them SHOULD be talking about them. Wouldn't that make more sense? Wouldn't it serve the NTKO community better if they did? Wouldn't it be better if they could actually prove what it is they believe in for the rest of us?

Quote:

Therefore, the "can do" people have their reasons for keeping a low profile





I believe THIS is the most telling statement of all. What could those reasons possibly be? The most laughable thing of all might be that, they worry about this power falling "into the wrong hands"?

It's also because they might fear ridicule and scorn. Seems like a good public display of this NTKO skill under testable and repeatable circumstances would go a long way to squelch such negativity.

The problem is, the skill ISN'T testable and repeatable under these circumstances, with non believers. Why? Because it REQUIRES faith to produce the desired effects in the "target".


Quote:

Therefore, I respect your disbelief. Please refrain from ridicule/disrespect of mine.





Certainly. I think it's fair for people to question however.


Quote:

Darren's ideas have been posted on at least two forums without his knowledge. This was done, I believe, because people found his ideas well researched and of integrity.





Did he perform public tests? Others have and have been practically debunked. Has he had more success? Is he (that you know of) willing to publicly test or does he just stay within his own group and test only among the faithful?


Quote:


I'd humbly suggest that if you are not matching his quality, and you are disrespectful, you run the risk of sounding like the 12 year old with his cat.





I think you could turn that around as wll. I don't know if it is the critical voices that will end up sounding like the 12 year olds so much as the people with belief in the "magical" will.


-John

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#359287 - 09/03/07 12:11 PM Re: Interesting read on idea's behind NTKO's [Re: JKogas]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I think it would be a shame for the conversation to terminated hastily. For the first time we have input coming out of the Kyusho community that confirms much of what people in the wider Martial community have saying for a long time. An acknowledge from the inner ranks that suggestion can play a huge part in many light touch and no touch KO's. As I said I found it disapointing that the author may now be sitting on the fence. I'd honestly like to know, or even better have some video examples of KO's where hynposis was at play and then compare that to clips of actual knockouts. I think it'd make an interesting train of discussion.
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#359288 - 09/03/07 03:40 PM Re: Interesting read on idea's behind NTKO's [Re: JKogas]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
You quote me OK but it doesn't seem that you read what you quoted. I DO NOT TRAIN NTKO. THEY ARE NOT COMBAT TECHNIQUES. I WOULD NOT WAIST MY TIME TRAINING THEM. SUCH TRAINING WILL NOT MAKE ME A BETTER FIGHTER. I HAVE NO CLUE HOW TO EXECUTE OR TRAIN AN NTKO. IT CONSTITUTES 0 PERCENT OF MY TRAINING TIME EVEN THOUGH MY TRAINING COMES FROM EVAN PANTAZI.

To the best of my knowledge, and I could be wrong, Darren does not believe that all NTKO are BS. He is writing about the hypno way. What he postulates is well considered and researched and I respect him. I will not defend his thesis or NTKO. I will not set myself up for ridicule for your entertainment. I train hard and I respect myself, my achievements and my goals.

There are no practitioners out there, of NTKO, that would be better off for my attempt to defend that which I do not understand. There are no nonbelievers who will be convinced by anything I would say. Can we just respectfully let it be.

Please limit your discussion to Darren's post, or go on Kyushospace and discuss it with Darren himself and leave the attacks of me and my beliefs out of this. Otherwise, I shall use my Mod powers and with light touch, make the attacks go away. I expect better behavior from this field of discussants.


Edited by underdog (09/03/07 04:27 PM)
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#359289 - 09/03/07 05:53 PM Re: Interesting read on idea's behind NTKO's [Re: underdog]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
however, you were the one who introduced the idea of there being a dichotomy of NTKO's. (hypno-way vs. 'other' way). can't blame people for being curious as to that claim. How is Darren suppossed to comment on your idea of the dichotomy you introduced into the discussion? isn't that your responsibility?

If it's your position that the 'other' way of NTKO's is a religeous-like belief, then thats all that needs to be said. end of discussion.

to 'moderate' and silence questioning of your remarks without stated cause, is dangerously close to an abuse of those powers. In effect, it sets the stage for all mods to say as they please and delete contradictory questioning.

respectfully...

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#359290 - 09/03/07 06:30 PM Re: Interesting read on idea's behind NTKO's [Re: Ed_Morris]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Read the beginning of the thread. It was NOT my idea. It was Darren's. HIS post on Kyushospace was cited by a second forum verbatim and then linked here from the second site. I mearly recognized it from Kyushospace and identified it.

I actually have not mentioned my critique of Darren's ideas. I only stated that I respect Darren. I've mentioned my ideas on NTKO in general which are pretty well known amongst those who read the PP forum. I have commented to Darren in PM and on Kyushospace. I have tried twice to bring Darren to fighting arts to discuss his thesis but he has no inclination to do so. The thread was opened as an interesting read on NTKO and indeed it is. People who would not have seen it on Kyushospace have had a chance to read it here. Trashing me or my training is not OK. I am not the subject of this thread. I am not aware of ever having critiqued any other member's training or beliefs unless doing so was in response to an open inquiry seeking advice. Therefore, since this thread has taken on the way of many others on NTKO, I am locking it. I am a volunteer moderator and I do not give anyone, including other mods, permission to abuse me.
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