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#359162 - 08/30/07 09:51 PM Sanchin versus Tensho
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Just did a search on Sanchin and Tensho (and I have thrown a Tensho and Tai Chi ringer in the group), thought some might enjoy watching.

Sanchin kata, performed by 4 martial arts masters
The styles are IOGKF Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu and Chinese White Crane system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzOMYrtNWRI

SHINSHINKAN 5ļ Dan SWKO Demostration SANCHIN TAMESHIWARI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPglY6OrBtw

Sanchin Test - http://www.gojuryu.com.ar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSLCC_q-NAg

Fujian White Crane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtLgfru5PjM

Sanchin breaking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Z6S4r9F5E

Tensho Shito Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGeIuc0wNOg

Tensho Kata by Hichiya Yoshio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MjTZPqVAno

Onmyouza - Homura no tori~Houyoku-tensho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd2gGTEBH8s
Onmyouza - Madonna tachi no lullaby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho4jrPVp-R4&mode=related&search=

Oyama Tensho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_yr4VHTlLA

Kata Tensho seigokan championship 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4Tmhjf1psE

SANCHIN-TENSHO - Meibukan Goju-ryu de Meitoku Yagui
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHeRn4xaQvU

Chinen Shinzo Sensei performing Tensho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qAtvZ8Poi4
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#359163 - 08/31/07 04:08 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Victor

Thank you for the link!

Very interesting.

The 4 Sanchins side by side alone is very cool.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#359164 - 08/31/07 08:00 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: cxt]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Ditto! Does anyone know the names of the presenters?

Quote:

The 4 Sanchins side by side alone is very cool.



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#359165 - 08/31/07 08:15 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
from the youtube comments...

left to right:

Morio Higaonna - Goju ryu
Shinryu Gushi - Uechi ryu
Two Chinese White Crane masters from Fujian province

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#359166 - 09/01/07 06:18 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Ed_Morris]
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
Wow. Thanks a million!

You mentioned sometime back that you had developed a method for specific searching on YouTube, Video.Google, and the like. Would it be possible for you to share?

In either event, thanks for the link you provide. Always nice to see something new and different.
_________________________
Formerly Vash

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#359167 - 09/02/07 11:35 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'Sanchin kata, performed by 4 martial arts masters
The styles are IOGKF Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu and Chinese White Crane system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzOMYrtNWRI '

this was the climax and a very rare event for many at the 50th anviversary of karate in the UK, recently held by Wingrove Sensei, I had the absolute pleasure of a superb weekends training and got to witness this demonstration live.

I would recomend next year to anyone seriously interested in classical okinawan/chinese/japanese martial arts.

full details here - http://www.cyberbudo.com/index2.htm
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#359168 - 09/24/07 10:18 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: shoshinkan]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Excellent collection. Thanks. Neither kata is in "my style" but I recently learned a Ryuku Kenpo Sanchin (close to our style) for its energy and historical interests. At Budo camp this week, someone was giving me some reasons why I "Had" to learn Tensho and he did it quickly for me a few times. Seeing it done well slowly and in a variety of styles answers a lot of questions. Not only did you provide the link, but you screened out a lot of unhelpful demonstrations in the process so thanks.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#359169 - 09/24/07 11:43 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: underdog]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

...someone was giving me some reasons why I "Had" to learn Tensho




I am sure we are all interested to know the 'reasons'?


Quote:

Seeing it done well slowly and in a variety of styles answers a lot of questions...




Here again what are the 'questions' and 'answers'?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359170 - 09/25/07 10:25 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I was told that if I practiced this kata a million times, that I would never have a problem countering an attack... that built into it's moves were all the essential counters. The person telling me this studied primarily Tai Chi. He demonstrated the kata a couple of times for me at high speed, not study or performance speed. Having no knowledge of the kata, I could not dispute his claim but only listened with interest and put the kata on my "to do" list to learn more about it. The thread was amazingly well timed, because when I came back from my weekend study, I discovered it.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#359171 - 09/26/07 04:52 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: underdog]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Well, any kata done a million times will have the same effect, IF, the effect one is looking for is just to not having a problem countering an attack.

The Tensho kata (like the Sanchin kata) is more than that, fortunately.

First of all let's go back to the article by Giles Hopkins on the historical influences shaping early Okinawan karate, in particular Goju Ryu, (the subject of discussion in another thread) it was mentioned that Chojun Miyagi (at the meeting of masters back in the 1930s to decide the future and direction of Okinawan karate) was most adamant that the classical kata, in particular the Tensho, should not be altered at all when new kata were made or re-hashed to spread Okinawan karate to the masses, in particular to school children. Miyagi however had no objection in re-hashing the other kata. The insightful question that Hopkins asked was what was so special about Tensho? why would changing or re-hashing it was such an unacceptable proposition to Miyagi?

Hopkins surmised that Tensho was actually a "one-handed" or rather single-palmed combat system within Goju's curriculum (Tensho is afterall 99% palm) and therefore it's unique feature should not be tampered with and he (Hopkins) went on to show some one-handed bunkai taken (he claimed) from Tensho.

With the greatest respect to Hopkins, I disagree. Some might consider my disagreement objectionable as I do not do any karate system; but as we are dealing with the possible southern CMA's historical influence on the fundamental technical aspects of Goju Ryu, my perspective as a CMA practitioner (I've done, among others, '5 Ancestors' or in the Hokien dialect "Ngo Cho" back in the early 1970s) is actually quite material, as 5 Ancestors seems to have so much in common with Goju.

If, therefore, as Hopkins said, Tensho is just another combat-technique specific kata, why was Miyagi so adamant in not tampering with it, when he had no objection at all in tampering with the other combat-technique specific kata? Miyagi, according to Hopkins, actually said there were 'secrets' in there. Well, does it mean there were no 'secrets' in the other kata and so one can mangle them up in any way one like? And afterall what was so secretive about fighting with one palm?; some people might even consider it silly to fight with only one palm, as Hopkins himself admits there were physio-mechanical problems with generating enough striking power when using only one palm in both blocking and striking as shown in his illustrations.

The reason why Miyagi said no to changing anything in Tensho was because Tensho was an internal-energy (Chi Kung) training kata (also found in other CMA systems, in particular its closest cousin or ancestor the 5 Ancestors System) and changing anything in it would have destroyed the fundamental energy-training basis of the kata.

I am not here looking for students so please don't get the wrong idea, but to truly understand why and HOW internal-energy training is found in Tensho and why Miyagi was so hard on this and the 'secrets' he mentioned, someone would have to train with me for say a year or so then it all becomes clear. Hopkins, with the greatest respect to him, had never trained under Miyagi and was not aware of this area and so (with all good intentions) had no choice but to supplant and graft combat-specific techniques onto Tensho and possibly mislead a whole generation or two of Goju practitioners.

In another thread where we saw 4 masters (karate/White Crane) doing Sanchin together on stage? it surprised me why the masters from White Crane chose to do an absolutely beginner's Form from 5 Ancestors, something one learns on the first day at a 5 Ancestors School, and not one of the more advanced truly Sanchin Forms to show-case the System. Perhaps those Forms are too long and so may not fit in with the timing of the karate Sanchin performances; ironically it was the karate fellow who took the longest and the rest have to stand around sheepishly waiting for him.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359172 - 09/26/07 08:18 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
BP, as a beginner in karate and no CMA, I am having a difficult time 'navigating' the terminology and concepts that comprise 'internal'. It's obvious to me, while learning and watching my teacher and Sensei Hopkins, that the 'internal' aspect is understood...but not really articulated in a way that helps me to bridge to the two different systems. It is much like comparing two languages that share a distant root language...

If you know Sanchin and Tensho, could you elaborate on the 'internal aspects', from a CMA perspective? How does 'fajin' fit into this? And what is known as 'kyusho' in Tensho, which seems like a partial understanding of a larger paradigm.

Thanks.

PS. It might be of interest, to throw this into the mix:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15959262

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#359173 - 09/26/07 01:10 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
The whole problem here is that the internal aspect of MA (whether done through Tai Chi or Sanchin/Tensho or some other CMA like 5 Ancestors) is that it is a process, a long, slow process, involving many steps, which is why I said someone needed to spend at least a year with me to fully grasp and understand it; (not to perfect it, but just to understand it) I believe that Miyagi himself was just starting on the process and so, as you say, the internal aspects of Tensho are understood or rather implied but not articulated; the question is can your teacher actually 'articulate' it and go down into the actual methodology in order to bring out the internal aspects of Tensho and teach it? From Giles Hopkins article, we know that he could not and so had to do bunkai with the Tensho kata. Miyagi would turn in his grave.

So being a process, it is not just one thing. I need to monitor your progress and when certain changes happen within the trainee's body, we go on to the next prescribed step and so on, until the trainee reaches the point where the original differentiation between internal and external disappears and merge together, like mixing sugar and water, both starting off differently, but ended up 'together' --- truly hard/soft --- or as Miyagi himself put it 'Goju' From this point on your cannot separate them even if you wanted to and every movement you make involves both.

As I said before on another thread, when I do a Tai Chi form for someone knowledgeable, I need not do the whole 108 or 96 movements; all that is needed is just one movement and if the audience is knowledgeable enough, that one movement is enough, either you obviously have it or you obviously don't and doing the whole 108 is not going to make any difference. Look at that Chang San Feng poem in the other thread again and imagine someone able to physically exhibit all those desirable characteristics and attributes when performing the Tai Chi Form and you will realise the immensity of the subject and that the internal aspects of the MA is not one thing.

So I cannot here just tell you in a sentence "what" it's all about and everything is crystal clear and you know what the 'internal' part of the internal aspects of MA is all about and go right out and do it. You need to be taught to train correctly and from there comes understanding, not the other way around, because it involves transformation of your internal bodily processes and how else can understanding be had other then through training? Try telling an absolute beginner the power and joy that comes from being able to do a really powerful focused punch after years of training; the beginner just had to experience it for himself/herself to fully appreciate what you are telling him, and here we are just talking something 100% external.

I started (more than 3 decades ago) like every other internal beginner in having great difficulty understanding what all this 'internal' thing was all about and all those theories, whether told to me or read in books, made no sense whatsoever; if anything, like you, it led to more questions than answers, because those books/theories were written by people who had gone through the long, slow process, they knew what it was all about.

It's like standing at the fork of a wooded road in the poem by Robert Frost (The Road not Taken) You really need to travel down that road to see what's ahead. I can fully understand the problem of "finding a qualified instructor"; it is not as easy as it sounds when it comes to the internal aspects of the MA.

I am not being dismissive, but now you appreciate what I meant when I said fate plays a part?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359174 - 09/26/07 01:17 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Thank you for the reply.

As for evaluating the understanding of another's understanding of the 'internal' aspects based on one article, one that 'points' vs. states (and that has a different focus)...I personally wouldn't presume.

As for this comment:

I can fully understand the problem of "finding a qualified instructor"; it is not as easy as it sounds when it comes to the internal aspects of the MA.

I am not being dismissive, but now you appreciate what I meant when I said fate plays a part?"


You are not talking to a newb...only one that lacks the CMA paradigm.

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#359175 - 09/26/07 04:20 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


In another thread where we saw 4 masters (karate/White Crane) doing Sanchin together on stage? it surprised me why the masters from White Crane chose to do an absolutely beginner's Form from 5 Ancestors, something one learns on the first day at a 5 Ancestors School, and not one of the more advanced truly Sanchin Forms to show-case the System. Perhaps those Forms are too long and so may not fit in with the timing of the karate Sanchin performances; ironically it was the karate fellow who took the longest and the rest have to stand around sheepishly waiting for him.




Surely the group had agreed to show the same form in their respective systems for comparative purposes. Also from what I have seen it is quite common for arts to be showcased by way of their core and fundamental aspects, i.e. Sanchin.

Do you know the name of the 5 ancestors form you say is related to Tensho?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#359176 - 09/26/07 10:31 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: harlan]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Narda,

Trying to fully explain the internal arts is very difficult because of different backgrounds, different experiences and personal perception.

From my point of view internal and external are relatively less useful distinctions.

Essentially there is movement in space all of which has external and internal components.
Systems of study may he hard and fast, hard and slow, soft and fast, soft and slow and many more permutations.

We normally accept definitions such as CMA internal arts are tai chi, bagua, hsing yi or Daosit arts where CMA external arts are ones like Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, etc. But those classifications are not universally accepted even within the Chinese arts. Iíve seen Chinese instructors who donít believe there is a real distinction, just different methods of training for the same goal.

While an art like tai chi is considered internal, there is a large discussion that the Chen systems (considered one of the predecessors of many other tai chi systems) really is just a small piece of Shaolin (as the N. Shaolin temple was about 100 miles from the Chen village).

Now Iíve played Isshinryu for 35 years, which most would consider an external art, and Yang Tai Chi for 30 years, likewise the internal side.

But each has internal and external components. Heck Goju is just ĎHard/Softí or ĎInternal/Externalí, which of course brings us to the discussion of Tensho.

While I live that Chi is a component of my training, and existence, I canít show it to you, I canít give you a cup of Chi. If you were to spend about 3-6 months playing tai chi with me I could let you decide if there is something to it or not, but you have to personally take that journey. Yet that opening isnít the answer.

I find a better set of definitions like this.
1. The purpose of form is to develop ones energy potential in movement.
2. The purpose of form technique application is to tap that energy into a physical response.
3. Forget trying to put words around internal energy feelings (Sanchin Hard or Tai Chi soft). What I find more useful is that you internalize your movement to use your entire body as one. More perfect alignment in technique execution equals the body not contesting against itself, and with less effort you generate greater response.

So whether Hard and Fast, Hard and Slow, Soft and Fast or Soft and Slow, the long term goal (often requiring 10 or 20 years) is continually working to make the body move more efficiently, to do more with less movement for greater effect.

Now consider Tensho in that light. It only takes a short time to move to wave your hands around, but to internalize your motion so your entire body is within those hand movements is more difficult.

While Tensho isnít part of my Isshinryu training, I have studied it from several traditions. More interesting was Ernest Rothrockís version called Tension Form from his Pai Lum training. Daniel Pai originally taught a form of Goju and eventually taught various Chinese traditions. Their Tension form is most definitely a Chinese-styled variation on Tensho, but more interestingly the advanced study requires three entirely different styles of breathing. The first level uses a sssssssss breathing pattern. I was once shown the 2nd style and it was so hard my side immediately got a stitch in it, but I was only shown it once.

So how to make this intelligible, for words donít really do it. Iím going to reference some youtube clips. Look the best performances are rarely on youtube, but you can still find some indicative steps. BTW these clips are and arenít perfect, but sometimes we see great things by seeing the imperfections, nor on a different day and a different place any of them may be much better (or worse) too.

Look at the following three versions of Tensho. The first shows a much greater total body involvement in the techniques. The 2nd is also doing so but differently. The third demonstration, a good public display, shows a very different approach to the hand techniques compared to the full body involvement.

Theyíre all using internal energy with their external movement, but look how differently?

Chinen Shinzo Sensei performing Tensho
Filmed at the Jundokan in Naha, Okinawa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qAtvZ8Poi4&mode=related&search=
Tensho Kata by Hichiya Yoshio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MjTZPqVAno
Goju Ryu Karate Do Association of Singapore - Tensho Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhmWFgj_3s8

Now let me show you a Hard style with great, IMO, internal development. As I see this the performers body is so unified in its motion, they can flow between techniques. Most definitely external, yet most definitely internal.

Yanqing Tui
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85tdZYkMQWI

Just to change the mixture, take a look at this form, the length makes it a tremendous long term study.

Five Animals Eight Methods Fist wu xing ba fa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty8FLQ_LBus&mode=related&search=

To specifically see rather fair body unity in movement I offer a few tai chi forms from different systems of study, traditional forms, contemporary competitions forms, etc.

Chen Tai Chi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYkftdgHDJI
tai chi Yang 48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9SRS_z67nI
Tai Chi Yang Style (XIN) Fast Forms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X5Dyzj4NKU
Sun style Tai Chi 73 Taiji
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xW5WWLtI68

Back to the hard, let me offer an old friend and a students old performance. Theyíre not perfect, but I feel they show working towards full body involvement with a technique.

Gojushiho Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGANY4NbpA
Kusanku Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BzGK-wRtr8

Finally back to Okinawa and some other considerations.

1990 Okinawan Karate ~ Kobudo Festival Demonstrations
Kama Ė Akamine Bo Ė Masanobi Shinjo Goju Suparimpe Ė Goju Tensho - Ryuko Tomosose Uechi Suparimpe -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQcz8rtvIac

Matayoshi performing Okaku
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmASeBvCq5M
Matayoshi Hakkucho Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=encHYcCQgxc
Kusano performing Hakucho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVdNiZUxmc

In the end there is just technique moving through space inserted into an attack line of movement, hopefully with the correct angle of entry, and the technique drawing from energy developed through kata, kuen, form study.

Or at least thatís how I work it.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#359177 - 09/28/07 07:23 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I learned that tensho is a cool-down kata.
You can start training any kata but must stop training with tensho kata. It will rebalance the energy.

Sanchin and tensho seem the 2 opposites as hard and soft.
Sabchin kata contains mainly hard straight techniques. tensho soft cirsular techniques. But evetually you will learn to use hard and soft together in one technique.
This is learned in relaxing/tensing at the right moment.

So the value of training sanchin and tensho as basic training kata is to understand how hard and soft melt together.

Internal and external has another dimension to me. External start with developing muscle strength and learning to generate power from a static posture. Internal points to alignment and timimg in motion to deliver power in technique. Karate starts with external learning. I am told that tai-chi hsing-yi and pa-kua start from internal perspective.
For goju-ryu the 2 principles melt in training the body mind and spirit(chi) to act as a unity, to have explosive power in technique (fa-jing).

When I train sanchin and tensho I usually feel revived and sometimes light (especially with tensho). My joints feel stretched and I feel that I can strech deeper.

Sanchin is the basic training kata and tensho is the closing kata in our training system of Goju-ryu.
That these kata should not be tempered with is actually historical not correct. There are 2 versions of sanchin created by Miyagi and one by Higashionna and there are 2 vesrions of tensho. However, the breathing seems to be simular in all the systems although some do it longer and with more noise than others.

The tensho kata was developed in view of a trip Miyagi made
to Fukien provence in China around 1915 together with a white crane master Gokenki. There is already a first displey of this kata on film in 1918. It is odd that it is related to rokkishu as it looks more like some crane sanchin kata I have seen on the net than the rokkishu kata's I have seen on the net. Perhaps Toon-ryu rokkishu kata can give an answer ??

I would like to hear Butterflypalms perspective towards internal/external in regard to 5 ancestor/southern tiger and white crane systems. They are not regarded as internal systems or are they ???

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#359178 - 09/28/07 11:27 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: CVV]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

They are not regarded as internal systems or are they ???





They are not generally regarded as internal systems, which does not mean that at a certain stage of training, internal elements were not introduced to enhance or rather complement the obviously hard external features, just that not many students stayed long enough with their masters to reach that stage. I know of one of the very first students of master Chee Kim Tong (who brought 5 Ancestors to Malaysia from Fukien province after WWII) actually broke off his almost 20 years of relationship simply because master Chee kept putting off this aspect of training, even though that student won a gold medal in a tournament held in the 60s and brought much fame to master Chee in Malaysia and east Asia as that tournament had participants from Hong Kong and elsewhere. I know because this student actually complained to me in the early 70s after the breakup. And 5 Ancestors has generally being regarded as a hard, external system, having historically come from the Shaolin tradition. It was called 5 Ancestors because it devolved from an amalgamation of the individual systems passed on from the 5 monks (traditionally 4 monks and 1 nun) who escaped the temple burning.

5 Ancestors (at least as practiced in Malaysia) has meditation, meditative breathing excerzies, static postures and 'soft' forms, just that these are seldom demonstrated in public; what are often shown are the fast, hard forms. 5 Ancestors was not my main system, but I know and practiced enough to see a parallel and can cross-reference between 5 Ancestors and Goju Ryu and hence my participation in these discussions, though from the other systems that I know and practiced I am able to see a common thread running through them all, and confusion and disagreements will inevitably occur when some people see only some and not the others. The blind men and the elephant?

I can be wrong or not having seen enough of course, but I am saying this is what I know and have trained for it at this juncture of my life (aged 58) and I hope to improve and thus bring myself up another level until the day I die, and if there is a 'beyond', beyond even that.

Coming back to Goju Ryu, as you mentioned, Tensho is used to complement (I wouldn't say 'balance') the hard Sanchin kata, and when trained long enough (and, controversially, correctly enough) these two seemingly diametrically opposed kata will become one, like, as I said, mixing sugar and water, or as you put it, 'melt' together.

The reason why arts like Tai Chi has never being regarded as external is simply because we don't "see" the hard element, but if you have ever being struck by a Tai Chi master, you will realise it is not as soft as it appears, just that a different system of power generation is trained for and used. Look at Bagua and especially Hsing Yi which 'appears' just as external and hard is still regarded as an internal system, why? It is not what it appears to be that makes a system internal or external, but the "adherence to certain fundamental principles in it's power generation" that makes it internal, but here again I must make clear, the initial internal/external dichotomy which a beginning student feels, or rather being subjected to, will disappear over time and lose any meaning for the advanced trainee because both of the internal/external, hard/soft elements come together and act together at the same time; it has to be, if not how else can you use it to fight if you need to vacillate between internal/external, hard/soft?

These internal/external, hard/soft elements are useful only for training purposes because no way you, in the beginning stage of your training, can make them 'melt' together right from day one and so you train the hard part and then the soft part and then at the advanced stage together. By 'together' (and this is the test) I mean you will 'feel' both the sensations of 'hardness and the softness' at the same time, WITHOUT the one opposing or interfering with the other. There is no way I can make anyone understand this part unless, as I say, it takes perhaps a year or so of monitored training as more than just the practicing of kata is involved. It is this 'togetherness' part that has, understandably, caused the most problems to beginners or even intermediates.

So there are two ways to do it; one, eat the sugar and drink the water or vice versa, or, mix them together and take the sweet drink in one gulp.
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#359179 - 09/28/07 12:11 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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I forgot to comment on the tampering or rather not tampering with the classical Tensho kata that you mentioned.

It really does not matter that you have two or more versions of Tensho or Sanchin. There are many versions of Tai Chi and Hsing Yi. The physical movements are but one part of the training. What you must not tamper with are the principles of internal visualisation that governs and give meaning to those movements. Having said that I can understand Miyagi's apprehension because if you haphazardly change the movements too much, you can in a way go 'off key' and the co-ordination between the principles of internal visualisation and the physical movements becomes that much less effective. You don't see any jumping or kicks or left-right turns in any version of Sanchin and Tensho do you?

Anyone can devise a set of 'sanchin' or 'tensho' kata which may look a bit different from the classical ones and still call it 'sanchin' and 'tensho' so long as that person understands and adheres to the fundamental principles involved. Miyagi's fear probably was that people who want to tamper with the classical kata (so that they were digestable for the masses) may not appreciate that and so, unwittingly, destroy the fundamental basis underlying it's practice.

Afterall the words 'sanchin' does not mean hard and 'tensho' does not mean soft, but together they become, in Miyagi's mind, 'Goju', why?

Everyone knows 'sanchin' means 3 Battles and 'tensho' is written with 'ten' using the chinese character radical for 'cloud' with the not so common addition of another radical for 'vehicle' giving the idea of a movement that is smooth, floating, light and yet, like a cloud, appeared solid. And 'sho' simply means palm.
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#359180 - 09/28/07 01:45 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Victor Smith Offline
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Hard or Soft, this discussion is interesting.

Tai Chi only resembles soft. My instructor's Wu studies contain both slow and fast forms. I've been on my own most of the past 30 years after my first two years of instruction, with occasional visits with each other. The lessons never stop, but int he beginning as I was practicing karate and he was mostly teaching 'kung fu' we didn't concentrate on the applications.

About a dozen years later I began teaching a small group, and as they were also long term karate students with me we would occassionally trip the light fantastic.

The first time I tried to apply the press I almost caved in my students chest (a mature adult) with the smallest of motions. When I called my instructor about that his reply was "Didn't I ever tell you not to use that on a student."

Nope

So is it soft or hard, well the friend who took it in would give one answer, an observer watching the form would have another.

From the perspective of Sanchin and Tensho, Sanchin (Miyagi's version) is a staple of Isshirnyu, but actually I found a great conflict in my studies when I began tai chi and choose to place deep sanchin study way back on the back burner for decades.

When I had the chance to learn Uechi Sanchin it was an amazing revelation, the energy release was clean and hard with normal breathing.

So being slow it took me 10 years before I put it together for myself and finally one day I took the chance and ran Sanchin, normal breathing and full speed. I got an incredible energy release and when I started using its application potential with the same energy, Sanchin technique became one of my primary tools on how I would break up an attacker.

So from my point of view Sanchin is both a basic study and my most advanced training.

Tensho another outside study to Isshinryu crosses back to the Jing Do short range energy techniques of my instructor.
Those techniques alone use circular movement to tear into an attacker. One small use it that any 'block' is turned into a smashing response in the same movment chain. So even if I don't know a form I can show how to use it to great effect.

And tensho can have many layers of approach to study.

Of course it far more limiting than the millions of versions of tai chi, but it's still flowing.

If there is a lesson to this its that how you train actually does become what you are.
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#359181 - 09/28/07 01:53 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
CVV Offline
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Thanks Butterflypalm for the explanation.
I find it also very hard to explain what I feel is the difference between internal and external. Sometimes I am not even sure if I have the right perception on it. And like Victor said maybe you can only feel it yourselve to recognize it for others.

Sometimes in training, a technique or series of techniques (alone or with partner or with a tool) feels soo correct that it is the most natural thing ever done.

Miyagi was once asked if he could perform kata always perfectly. He commented that for every 30 times he performed sanchin, maybe one or two times the kata was good enough.

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#359182 - 09/28/07 02:44 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: CVV]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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The 'putting the hard into the soft & the soft into the hard', (i.e. do sanchin with the softness of tensho and do tensho with the hardness of sanchin) is both simple & impossible. It's simple when you can finally do it and near impossible when you cannot. Anything less, according to Miyagi, was not good enough. My view and experience is that if you cannot do it 30 times out of 30, how can it be used in a fight? I am not sure if Miyagi was being overly modest, but either you've got it or you don't, there is no in-between. You cannot be almost pregnant.

Like the genius who put two knives together and invented scissors; now why didn't I think of that?
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#359183 - 09/28/07 09:12 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
nahate Offline
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With all due respect you need to reread the article. Tensho is a kihon kata. It is not a classical kata. Nor does Giles sensei ever describe Tensho as "just another combat-technique specific kata." Quite the contrary. The more obvious techniques are not supported by the breathing and stepping patterns. That's part of its puzzle. It was developed by Miyagi from sources not clearly known. Some of those sources might underlie some of what you train and bear some similarities but they are not the same thing.

It is precisely because of its unique provenance that Miyagi's purpose in adding it to the Goju curriculum invites speculation. There are kihon kata, such as Sanchin, that supplemented by hojo undu and Gigsai katas inculcate elementary karate movement and kinesthetic awareness. There are the classical kata that use and apply that movement in combat-specific ways. These are the ones Miyagi insisted were the soul of Karate and could not be changed, even if the bunkai would not be widely disseminated but replaced by alternate and less lethal techniques for public consumption.

Tensho stands somewhere in between and Hopkins was speculating openly about the uses Miyagi had in mind and what he thought that Goju might have lacked that Tensho would supply.

While Hopkins never trained under Miyagi, (nor did you) his sensei and mine, Kimo Wall, trained under Seiko Higa, who trained a few years under Kanryo Higashionna and several decades under Miyagi. We don't know your forms. We do have an intimate and decades long relationship with Tensho. And the energy development and focus is not lost on us.

I was surprised in reading some works by voluminous researcher Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming and legendary Zheng Manqing that they eschewed the popular explanation of internal and external arts for a more direct and prosaic one. According to their classifications internal arts were those developed within China, external arts having their orign from outside. No need to divide between soft and hard, apart from emphasis they coexist in both the practice and theory of Chinese and Okinawan combatives.

It takes the fun out of mystic misunderstandings but it is probably more useful.

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#359184 - 09/28/07 09:18 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Victor Smith Offline
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I share this reluctently as one of the best examples I've seen of hard into soft and soft into hard:

Yanqing Tui
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85tdZYkMQWI

The sad thing is I did learn each technique being done, but alas, all were beyond my ability to move like this.

So is this basic or advanced? Is sanchin and tensho basic ore are they the keystone of destruction?

If you really want a study combine the study of Chinto with Seipai for a complete system unto itself, excpet that Naifanchi is the core of Chinto.

yin and yang - two sides of the same equation
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#359185 - 09/29/07 03:08 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: nahate]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

...Hopkins was speculating openly about the uses Miyagi had in mind and what he thought that Goju might have lacked that Tensho would supply.

We do have an intimate and decades long relationship with Tensho. And the energy development and focus is not lost on us.





Thank you for your comment and welcome to the discussion; it's good to have someone who comes from a direct Miyagi line to throw some light on a difficult subject, but I do find the two statements above somewhat contradictary. Perhaps I am not reading it right.
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#359186 - 09/29/07 03:29 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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That "Yangqing Tui" is a 'tui' set, meaning to train leg techniques. You will have to shed off quite a few of your Santa Claus pounds to be able to do that

Perhaps this may be shown for comparision?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0f4Ojz__o

and this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU5CEfDLHPI


Nahate,

I would like to add the following quote from your comment as well, the edict function has lapsed,

Quote:

It was developed by Miyagi from sources not clearly known




Edited by ButterflyPalm (09/29/07 03:51 AM)
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#359187 - 09/29/07 04:21 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Sorry to keep using up space, but the edict funcyion is way too fast,

how about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkc4tGpPeuU
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#359188 - 09/29/07 05:52 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Victor Smith Offline
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Interesting choices but even though "Yangqing Tui" is for leg technique development, my choice was the intersection between hard and soft. It's a personal choice but I consider that performer superb.

Sadly the onset of my periodic arthritis 22 years ago took most of my kicking ability away. Contiuning pain is a great leveler in the end, but I drag myself on the floor for my students in the end, my pain is not their burden, after all pain is your body telling you you're alive.

"Yangqing Tui" history of its development is an interesting one. You can find it at Evolution of a form ó si lu beng da on http://formosaneijia.com/category/mantislong-fist/ including an early version of the form.

The 3rd Taiwan White Crane you posted is super!

Personally I'm not a crane person. Of course my students study a dragon form (the choice of my friend), and all know dragon munches on crane (GRIN).

Even more interesting is how many more great Chinese performances exist....


Edited by Victor Smith (09/29/07 06:09 AM)
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#359189 - 09/29/07 07:29 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
CVV Offline
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Quote:

Sorry to keep using up space, but the edict funcyion is way too fast,

how about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkc4tGpPeuU




Indeed, as Victor statet 'superb'.
In my view the perfect example of hard and soft melting.

The sanchin kata as basic training kata is also the starting point for the next level. Higashionna and Miyagi in the beginning would teach next level sesan or sanseru or suparinpei. They all have the same opening sequence (Same in Uechi ryu). As such basic kata is the correct interpretation. The form Higashionna teached had combat application. Nowadays in Goju-ryu they are no longer investigated but return in the 3 other kata mentioned.

Tensho as basic training kata as Nahate stated, I disagree. In the view of JKF Goju-Kai it closes the sequence of kata. As I stated before, in this phylosophy you can start training with any kata you want, but you end training with tensho (close fist kata, heishu kata) to cool down, balance energy. All other kata, including sanchin, are open hand kata (kaishu kata) meaning that they are for training fighting technique.
I do have application for tensho but these are not the primary objectivs for tensho.

Other sects of Goju-ryu have different phylosophy about it.But most agree to the hard sanchin/soft tensho. Some say it is enough to train only sanchin and tensho to understand goju-ryu. I guess that the principle of hard and soft is meant not the curriculum of the entire style.


Edited by CVV (09/29/07 07:33 AM)

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#359190 - 09/29/07 07:42 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
CVV Offline
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Quote:

The 'putting the hard into the soft & the soft into the hard', (i.e. do sanchin with the softness of tensho and do tensho with the hardness of sanchin) is both simple & impossible. It's simple when you can finally do it and near impossible when you cannot. Anything less, according to Miyagi, was not good enough. My view and experience is that if you cannot do it 30 times out of 30, how can it be used in a fight? I am not sure if Miyagi was being overly modest, but either you've got it or you don't, there is no in-between. You cannot be almost pregnant.

Like the genius who put two knives together and invented scissors; now why didn't I think of that?




Would that mean that every time you execute a form it is to it's near perfection and you never slip ???

I guess the statement was made in modesty but also to push himselve to keep reaching for the maximum. The 3 conflicts still conflict with each other, nomatter how many times you train it. In my feeling, some performances are better than other, done by the same person on different times.

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#359191 - 09/29/07 07:54 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

The 'putting the hard into the soft & the soft into the hard', (i.e. do sanchin with the softness of tensho and do tensho with the hardness of sanchin) is both simple & impossible. It's simple when you can finally do it and near impossible when you cannot. Anything less, according to Miyagi, was not good enough. My view and experience is that if you cannot do it 30 times out of 30, how can it be used in a fight? I am not sure if Miyagi was being overly modest, but either you've got it or you don't, there is no in-between. You cannot be almost pregnant.

Like the genius who put two knives together and invented scissors; now why didn't I think of that?



good point. and I agree.

There is a Shodo work hanging in our dojo, it's a quote of Miyagi's: "Hard and Soft are not separate principles."

however, you are wrong to say Tensho training is 'bunkai' based - that is to say, it's not trained the same as kaishu kata. However, Tensho does have general implied application. These 'base' application/skills are fundamental to hard/soft technique. It's taught as intrinsic skill building which is of course applied within applications of the other kaishu kata. The term I sometimes use for the intrinsic nature of such practice is 'economy of movement'.

when we are looking at forms such as the ones which were posted by you and Victor, we are really looking at economy of movement development...not particular application. yet it's economy is intrinsic to application. In that way, you could also say that Tensho and kaisu kata are not two separate forms.


maybe a point thats lost in article form, but not necessarily in the author's teaching.

confusing or clear as mud?

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#359192 - 09/29/07 12:04 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: CVV]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

Would that mean that every time you execute a form it is to it's near perfection and you never slip ???




If by 'perfection' you mean that both the hard/soft, internal/external elements are discernably present and never at any moment leave my body in all the movements of the entire form, then, yes. It has become part of my whole bodily make-up; that's why I say you cannot have any 'in-between', (almost pregnant); either you have got it, or you haven't. If you are not sure whether you have it, then you don't have it, because your body itself will tell you whether you have it or not.

That guy in the 3rd video, though good, I would award 8 out of 10, because in the movement where he thrust out the two spearhands, there was too much tension (especially the fingers) and hence slowed down and affecting his overall smoothness and his intense concentration tells me that he was desperately trying to control his tension which shouldn't be the case at a more advanced level and so his soft/internal part still needs more work; he is still young and so understandable; but he can repeatedly (30 times out of 30) do that form that way each and every time because the required fundamental elements are already in-built in him and he could not do it any other way even if he wanted to, like getting a well-trained opera singer to sing off-key; this may not be a good analogy, but you get the idea.


Ed Morris,

we actually agree on something? I can accept of course that the internally generated tensive power, together with the movement itself that generated that power, be applied in any way in a combat-application situation. Any waving of the hand (as in the tensho kata) can have any manner of combat-application and if that waved hand is at the same time accompanied by an un-apparent strength known only to your opponent, then so much the better.

What I tried to put across (and maybe failed) is that tensho didn't start out that way. Did Miyagi do any bunkai on it and taught his immediate students? If he had, Hopkins need not 'speculate' It was first and foremost a power development kata. A kata to develop a "smooth" transition from the hard power of sanchin, so that when both are in perfect balance, an execution of a combat-specific technique will have that much less stiffness (bad thing to have in a fast moving fight) and yet not deprived of the necessary power to cause massive injury to your opponent when the opportunity arises. The only way anyone can understand this is to bang his arm aganist my 'relaxed' arm and be unpleasantly surprised.
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#359193 - 09/29/07 01:18 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

What I tried to put across (and maybe failed) is that tensho didn't start out that way.



I see. so you were a student of Miyagi, were you? no need for YOU to speculate? lol


I think what you meant to say is: "I dont train Goju nor Tensho nor have I ever trained with any of Miyagi's students, but yet I *think* I know Miyagi's reasons why Tensho might have been added to Goju curriculum."


your opinion, however, is saying the same thing as I mentioned: Tensho builds intrinsic skill, of which can be illustrated thru application. which also happens to not contradict the article you mention.

but lets visit something you know from experience instead of guessing - in your style (one that you've actually trained in), do you have intrinsic skill building forms? if so, can you also put those skills to use with 2-person drills?

even though you've been on the forum for 3 years, don't use a real name, nor have ever offered up any video showing your 'softness' - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you do actually train....but I'd be 'speculating'.

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#359194 - 09/29/07 02:02 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

I see. so you were a student of Miyagi, were you? no need for YOU to speculate? lol




My views are based on my observation that the parallels between 5 Ancesters/White Crane are so fundamentally similar on this aspect of training and thus having come from the same root or that a large part of Miyagi's own training seems to have similarities to my own training (I may not have trained in Goju, but I have trained in 5 Ancestors) that I would think that was what Miyagi had in mind; he could only teach the way he was trained. Short of interviewing Miyagi no one can be certain of course, but the fact remains Miyagi spent time in Fukien provimce, the home of 5 Ancestors, and why no bunkai was passed down from Miyagi on tensho?

It would be more useful for these technical discussions and certainly more helpful to other forum members to confine comments on the veracity or otherwise of my views on this aspect of Goju training. If my views are considered wrong by anyone, whether they be Goju-ka or not, then anyone can point me in the right direction, of course I can have my say too, if I choose to, like everybody else.

It's 2 am here and I have my regular sunday Tai Chi tomorrow or rather this morning at 7 am, so good night and good morning.
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#359195 - 09/29/07 03:51 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

My views are based on my observation that the parallels between 5 Ancesters/White Crane are so fundamentally similar on this aspect of training and thus having come from the same root or that a large part of Miyagi's own training seems to have similarities to my own training (I may not have trained in Goju, but I have trained in 5 Ancestors) that I would think that was what Miyagi had in mind; he could only teach the way he was trained.



that Miyagi trained in 5 ancestor is a theory. nobody knows for sure. I'm sure you could also name 10 other styles going on in the area he visited. another theory is that his draw for Tensho came right on Okinawa - namely the influence of Gogenki - who was a White crane teacher and traveled with Miyagi to China together...do you think Gogenki introduced him to 5 Ancestor Fist masters or White Crane masters in China? another student of Gogenki was Matayoshi Shinpo, who was Kimo Wall and Giles Hopkins teacher. Matayoshi's father, Shinko Matayoshi was a good friend of Miyagi. so a strong Crane-based theory could be placed on Tensho when considering those connections. certianly stronger than the theory: "it looks like 5 ancestor and Miyagi visted the general area in China where the style originated."

keep in mind too, that 'Ngo Cho Kun' (5 ancestor kungfu) was relatively new...it had only been conceived just 30 years or less before Miyagi's visit. It's a blending of various CMA's. A mixed martial art of it's time so to speak. It's even more unlikely Higashionna was trained in that brand new art. one of the major reason's Miyagi even went to China in the first place was to seek out his teacher's instructors.


Quote:

Short of interviewing Miyagi no one can be certain of course, but the fact remains Miyagi spent time in Fukien provimce, the home of 5 Ancestors


...and White Crane.

5 ancestor kung fu was conceived in the 1880's. one of the styles it was based on is White Crane.


Quote:

and why no bunkai was passed down from Miyagi on tensho?


Do you train 'In Tin Tat' fist form? if you do, then you can answer your own question.
Miyagi: "Think. you will figure it out."

Another student of Higashionna, Kyoda Jihatsu, reportedly taught 'bunkai' that same way. It was principle-based and the student applied the principle. there wasn't set 'bunkai'. anything with principles can be applied. showing one or training a particular application is just that - training.


Quote:

It would be more useful for these technical discussions and certainly more helpful to other forum members to confine comments on the veracity or otherwise of my views on this aspect of Goju training. If my views are considered wrong by anyone, whether they be Goju-ka or not, then anyone can point me in the right direction, of course I can have my say too, if I choose to, like everybody else.




no need to get defensive, I'm just pointing out my opinions in contrast to yours. If you come across as 'knowing' something you obviously may not - then expect to be called on it. please keep in mind my biases as well - I'm a student of Giles.


From what I've illustrated here, does that help you realize Miyagi may not be 'turning in his grave' ? There are similarities between 5 ancestor fist and goju - but it may may be more likely because they draw from similar sources.


Quote:

It's 2 am here and I have my regular sunday Tai Chi tomorrow or rather this morning at 7 am, so good night and good morning.


enjoy!

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#359196 - 09/30/07 12:35 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Sorry to step on your turf, and I don't say this in any negative way; right from the beginning I did feel some apprehension in commenting in such detail on someone else's system; epecially one as widely practiced as Goju. So to you, Goju players everywhere and of course your Sensei Hopkins, my best wishes in your training which is all that really matters in the end.

Quote:

It's 2 am here and I have my regular sunday Tai Chi tomorrow or rather this morning at 7 am, so good night and good morning.


enjoy!




Thanks, I always do.


Edited by ButterflyPalm (09/30/07 12:48 AM)
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#359197 - 09/30/07 01:15 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
This edict function is way too fast for my Tai Chi hands, but I wish to apologise to Sensei Hopkins for my lack of diplomacy in my choice of words.

Thank you.
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#359198 - 09/30/07 04:24 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Quote:

Would that mean that every time you execute a form it is to it's near perfection and you never slip ???




If by 'perfection' you mean that both the hard/soft, internal/external elements are discernably present and never at any moment leave my body in all the movements of the entire form, then, yes. It has become part of my whole bodily make-up; that's why I say you cannot have any 'in-between', (almost pregnant); either you have got it, or you haven't. If you are not sure whether you have it, then you don't have it, because your body itself will tell you whether you have it or not.

That guy in the 3rd video, though good, I would award 8 out of 10, because in the movement where he thrust out the two spearhands, there was too much tension (especially the fingers) and hence slowed down and affecting his overall smoothness and his intense concentration tells me that he was desperately trying to control his tension which shouldn't be the case at a more advanced level and so his soft/internal part still needs more work; he is still young and so understandable; but he can repeatedly (30 times out of 30) do that form that way each and every time because the required fundamental elements are already in-built in him and he could not do it any other way even if he wanted to, like getting a well-trained opera singer to sing off-key; this may not be a good analogy, but you get the idea.





NO, I meant reaching 10/10. Understanding the principles being applied by listening to your body also makes you realise when you are not reaching 10/10. And having a master indicating the flaws in some techniques makes you more knowladgeable in the details to work on.

If you always reach 10/10, you have made your point but I would not believe you.
At least I and everybody I know have to train to focus for 10/10. And somedays I am better than other days and adapting the techniques to the body at different times in life according to the individual possibilities and undrstanding keeps me training. Up till now I have not yet reached 10/10.
I must admit I am only a moderate practitioner and not a top-practitioner. Like the analogy of the opera singer, you have world-top and less technical gifted. Yet none of them sing off-key.

Interesting to know that 5 ancestor style was developped around 1880 and was based on white crane.
Can all Fukien styles be traced back to monk-fist boxing (Luohan quan) or did some individually develop apart from the Shaolin infuence ?
To my knowledge the styles from Fukkien are monk-fist tiger-fist dog-fist dragon-fist lion-fist white-crane-fist 5-ancestor-fist.
To my understanding, these styles left their mark on the development of karate from the 18th-19th and early 20th century.

Miyagi assembled a curriculum different from the shorin styles. The difference shorin/shorei or shuri/tomari-te and naha-te lie in the kata curriculum. Miyagi (as did others) insisted on creating new kata to enhance teaching karate. I suspect tensho can be viewed in that perspective. That the kata is core in training goju-ryu is without a doubt.


Edited by CVV (09/30/07 04:35 AM)

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#359199 - 09/30/07 07:52 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Sorry to step on your turf, and I don't say this in any negative way; right from the beginning I did feel some apprehension in commenting in such detail on someone else's system...


no need to be so sensitive. I think I liked the conversation better when you were argumentitive. When I first took a look at 5 Ancestor Fist, I was amazed how close some aspects seemed to Goju. almost too coincidental. After looking closer it wasn't clear which came first.

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#359200 - 09/30/07 08:36 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: CVV]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

If you always reach 10/10, you have made your point but I would not believe you.
At least I and everybody I know have to train to focus for 10/10.





I wish you good training then.

As for the historical questions, I think it's best that we leave history to the historians; from your other posts I know you are more knowledgeable in this area, but I am not and it's best that I keep quiet and be thought a fool, rather then open my mouth and confirms it. Perhaps some other forum member can join in on this area of discussion.

Ed,

If I was being sensitive I wouldn't have apologised to your Sensei. As it happened I couldn't get to sleep until almost 5 am, old folks' insomnia, and I missed my Tai Chi session and I hope I was missed; but somehow inspite of that the sun still rose, the neighbour's dog still barked and I dare speculate that it will happen all over again tomorrow.
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#359201 - 09/30/07 09:09 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think your real appology should be directed to Victor...for mentioning Santa Claus.


To further the conversation beyond diplomacy and political correctness - the thread was interesting before I butted in.

Taiji and Tensho - If Taiji is sometimes trained fast and with application, is it so strange to see Tensho trained a similar way?

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#359202 - 10/01/07 09:28 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Bummer. The original '4 Sanchin' seems to have been pulled from youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzOMYrtNWRI

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#359203 - 11/07/07 09:45 AM Kimo Wall sensei: Tensho kata [Re: harlan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
What do you know? My sensei's sensei's sensei.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sVWlN6kwCI4

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#359204 - 09/12/08 11:55 AM comparative sanchin [Re: harlan]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
bump

The original video posted earlier was soon removed...but a different one from the event is now available:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s

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#359205 - 09/12/08 09:52 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Victor:

Too much information, too many links ahhhhhhhhhhhhh

Jeff

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#359206 - 09/13/08 05:30 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Ronin1966]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Jeff,

Nope that was a year ago, a similar search would be much larger today. There aren't too many videos, they are there to use as one wishes. A quick watch to see what they are and then remember them when it's convenient.

I've probably looked at thousands of youtube martial video's in the last year or so. The amount to view is unreal, at the same time very little is gained from working, they just share a shape of what others do.

The best videos, while inspiring, do not show all of the layers of training to get at that point of study, nor do they indicate where you go from there.

IMO the best ones are those competing, or doing a demonstration in serious circumstances (before other senior instructors from multiple systems), situations were you find people willing to show more and try harder.
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#359207 - 09/13/08 05:11 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I've been unable to do kata for a couple of months because of my knee injury and subsequent surgery,but I have returned...almost. I'm still unable to do much of the turns to the left properly,but I'll get there.

One thing I have questions about. The sanchin I practice is very much like the hard style sanchin we see on most video's. The tensho is a little different. There is no rigidity in my tensho. It is very much flowing and more circular than what I have seen. I haven't found a video like it on youtube or anywhere.

1. Why was I taught that way? (speculate)
2. Is it just different or wrong?

Take into account that I do American goju.(Yamaguchi, Urban, Lou Angel, my instructors)
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#359208 - 09/13/08 05:57 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I've been unable to do kata for a couple of months because of my knee injury and subsequent surgery,but I have returned...almost. I'm still unable to do much of the turns to the left properly,but I'll get there.

One thing I have questions about. The sanchin I practice is very much like the hard style sanchin we see on most video's. The tensho is a little different. There is no rigidity in my tensho. It is very much flowing and more circular than what I have seen. I haven't found a video like it on youtube or anywhere.

1. Why was I taught that way? (speculate)
2. Is it just different or wrong?

Take into account that I do American goju.(Yamaguchi, Urban, Lou Angel, my instructors)




I think the way of practicing both Sanchin and Tensho varies a fair amount from school to school, i've also noticed that both change alot over time with the practitioner as you make minute adjustments to posture and movement.

We don't do either one with muscular tension, though i'd say our Tensho is also much "softer".

The stuff I am taught in Sanchin, you will know from shime testing whether it's right or wrong if you can maintain your posture and integrity with all the pushing, pulling, imbalancing, striking, two man drills and whatever.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/13/08 06:01 PM)

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#359209 - 09/15/08 02:16 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: BrianS]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
BrianS

Hope your surgery went well! And good luck on getting back to practice (slowly)

For what its worth....I'd say that is exactly how its "supposed" to be, at least that is how I would do it and have seen it done with Tensho--a LOT of attention paid to proper breathing but almost no tension or hardness...."tension" is for Sanchin.

I'm sure that opinions might vary...but from what I've read and heard from my sempai Tensho is kinda 180 degrees from Sanchin and it (as goes the story) is supposed to be that way.

I've seen people do Tensho with tension---but it just doesn't "feel" right to me....there is already a "tension" kata (to use that term) does not seem like 2 seperate ones would be needed.

Like I said, opinions likely vary here.....just putting in my deeply devalued 2 cents.
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#359210 - 09/16/08 05:38 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: cxt]
BrianS Offline
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Thanks cxt! That's the kind of speculation/confirmation I was hoping for.

I was told the same story,but I haven't seen any demo's as such.
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#359211 - 09/16/08 08:29 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Funny - tensho is not even a classical kata; Miyagi invented it and was open about that fact...

If anything it looks like Yong Chun's ba fen (a standard white crane external form - not qigong). The hand movements are most likely stray techniques practised in the expat Kojo school in Fuzhou. I think Miyagi just put them together in a 'white crane looking' form - inspired perhaps by what he saw on one of his 2 visits to Fujian.

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/origins-of-goju-kata.html

Nice form, but not magical imo.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (09/16/08 08:38 AM)
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#359212 - 09/16/08 08:39 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I assume you are referencing Butterfly's post, and as it mentions the article by Giles Hopkins, I feel obliged to add my newbies tuppence.

While 'Tensho' is not a 'classical' kata (depending on your time frame), it's certainly a 'capstone' one in our Goju. 'Magical' thinking aside, Tensho, in my book, is a 'statement' from Miyagi that deserves some deep consideration.

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#359213 - 09/16/08 09:29 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Indeed. Well said harlan.
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#359214 - 09/23/08 08:43 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: BrianS]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Hard tensho. Sometimes we do it this way...but a little more 'loose'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjlqvJUMTnQ

Quote:

I've been unable to do kata for a couple of months because of my knee injury and subsequent surgery,but I have returned...almost. I'm still unable to do much of the turns to the left properly,but I'll get there.

One thing I have questions about. The sanchin I practice is very much like the hard style sanchin we see on most video's. The tensho is a little different. There is no rigidity in my tensho. It is very much flowing and more circular than what I have seen. I haven't found a video like it on youtube or anywhere.

1. Why was I taught that way? (speculate)
2. Is it just different or wrong?

Take into account that I do American goju.(Yamaguchi, Urban, Lou Angel, my instructors)



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#359215 - 09/23/08 02:33 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Good grief, looked like that guy would have an anurism or something.

Do you take your shirt off to perform this kata too?
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#359216 - 09/23/08 02:52 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: BrianS]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
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If I took my shirt off...you'd go blind. LOL!

Isn't this what you were asking...tensho done hard? I thought that meant 'dynamic tension'? We've played with it once in awhile like this, but mostly a 'hard' interpretation that is usuable for striking and blocking.

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#359217 - 10/04/08 10:05 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: harlan]
harlan Offline
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Loc: Amherst, MA
Another instance of hard tensho:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F20Z3KCoY_0

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#359218 - 10/04/08 11:32 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
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Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

One thing I have questions about. The sanchin I practice is very much like the hard style sanchin we see on most video's. The tensho is a little different. There is no rigidity in my tensho. It is very much flowing and more circular than what I have seen. I haven't found a video like it on youtube or anywhere




There are lots of examples of a hard tensho,but tensho is supposed to be the soft aspect of goju. Atleast that's what I was told.

I learned the hard style sanchin too,but our tensho is soft,circular, and flowing.
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#359219 - 10/05/08 03:10 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I'm with Brian.

I think doing Tensho that hard misses its point.
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#359220 - 10/05/08 09:16 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
And what, in your opinion, is the point of tensho?

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#359221 - 10/05/08 10:04 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: harlan]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
wrist releases and some push hands elements from a solid base?

radical I know but you should check out Nathan Johnsons work on the kata tensho, naihanchi and sanchin.
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#359222 - 10/05/08 10:05 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
And what, in your opinion, is the point of tensho?
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#359223 - 10/05/08 10:46 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
In my practice the purpose of Tensho is exactly the same as the purpose of Sanchin, to break was stands before me.

pleasantly,
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#359224 - 10/05/08 11:55 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Let's see what dandjurdjevic has to say.

Better still, let's see what Miyagi has to say.
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#359225 - 10/05/08 12:12 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
BTW Victor, that was the purpose, not the point.
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#359226 - 10/05/08 02:20 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
For Tensho, long before I had the chance to learn the form I had studied a series of Chinese Short Range striking from my friend Ernest Rothrock.

When I learnt Tensho I immediately realized they were just tactical application of those techniques with the principles underlying them, specifically how one parry turns into the following strike.

In the sense today I'm only concerned with Sanchin as a superior way to disrupt an attack, and see Tensho in the same way, I find no difference in my practice.
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#359227 - 10/06/08 03:40 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Victor Smith]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I was given a rough description of the point of tensho vs. sanchin. I'll try to convey my instructor's thoughts from many years ago.

Sanchin is a hard kata for young people. Sanchin is to develop conditioning and to add power in your punches. As you progress through Goju your body goes through changes. You get older and tensho serves a better purpose. Tensho develops the "soft" power. You should be able to generate more relaxed power in a shorter distance by now.

Basically, sanchin is Go/hard and tensho is the Ju/soft aspect of Goju.

I learned sanchin as a whitebelt and six years later as a blackbelt.

, thus saith the whiteboy
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