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#359192 - 09/29/07 12:04 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: CVV]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Would that mean that every time you execute a form it is to it's near perfection and you never slip ???




If by 'perfection' you mean that both the hard/soft, internal/external elements are discernably present and never at any moment leave my body in all the movements of the entire form, then, yes. It has become part of my whole bodily make-up; that's why I say you cannot have any 'in-between', (almost pregnant); either you have got it, or you haven't. If you are not sure whether you have it, then you don't have it, because your body itself will tell you whether you have it or not.

That guy in the 3rd video, though good, I would award 8 out of 10, because in the movement where he thrust out the two spearhands, there was too much tension (especially the fingers) and hence slowed down and affecting his overall smoothness and his intense concentration tells me that he was desperately trying to control his tension which shouldn't be the case at a more advanced level and so his soft/internal part still needs more work; he is still young and so understandable; but he can repeatedly (30 times out of 30) do that form that way each and every time because the required fundamental elements are already in-built in him and he could not do it any other way even if he wanted to, like getting a well-trained opera singer to sing off-key; this may not be a good analogy, but you get the idea.


Ed Morris,

we actually agree on something? I can accept of course that the internally generated tensive power, together with the movement itself that generated that power, be applied in any way in a combat-application situation. Any waving of the hand (as in the tensho kata) can have any manner of combat-application and if that waved hand is at the same time accompanied by an un-apparent strength known only to your opponent, then so much the better.

What I tried to put across (and maybe failed) is that tensho didn't start out that way. Did Miyagi do any bunkai on it and taught his immediate students? If he had, Hopkins need not 'speculate' It was first and foremost a power development kata. A kata to develop a "smooth" transition from the hard power of sanchin, so that when both are in perfect balance, an execution of a combat-specific technique will have that much less stiffness (bad thing to have in a fast moving fight) and yet not deprived of the necessary power to cause massive injury to your opponent when the opportunity arises. The only way anyone can understand this is to bang his arm aganist my 'relaxed' arm and be unpleasantly surprised.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359193 - 09/29/07 01:18 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

What I tried to put across (and maybe failed) is that tensho didn't start out that way.



I see. so you were a student of Miyagi, were you? no need for YOU to speculate? lol


I think what you meant to say is: "I dont train Goju nor Tensho nor have I ever trained with any of Miyagi's students, but yet I *think* I know Miyagi's reasons why Tensho might have been added to Goju curriculum."


your opinion, however, is saying the same thing as I mentioned: Tensho builds intrinsic skill, of which can be illustrated thru application. which also happens to not contradict the article you mention.

but lets visit something you know from experience instead of guessing - in your style (one that you've actually trained in), do you have intrinsic skill building forms? if so, can you also put those skills to use with 2-person drills?

even though you've been on the forum for 3 years, don't use a real name, nor have ever offered up any video showing your 'softness' - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you do actually train....but I'd be 'speculating'.

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#359194 - 09/29/07 02:02 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

I see. so you were a student of Miyagi, were you? no need for YOU to speculate? lol




My views are based on my observation that the parallels between 5 Ancesters/White Crane are so fundamentally similar on this aspect of training and thus having come from the same root or that a large part of Miyagi's own training seems to have similarities to my own training (I may not have trained in Goju, but I have trained in 5 Ancestors) that I would think that was what Miyagi had in mind; he could only teach the way he was trained. Short of interviewing Miyagi no one can be certain of course, but the fact remains Miyagi spent time in Fukien provimce, the home of 5 Ancestors, and why no bunkai was passed down from Miyagi on tensho?

It would be more useful for these technical discussions and certainly more helpful to other forum members to confine comments on the veracity or otherwise of my views on this aspect of Goju training. If my views are considered wrong by anyone, whether they be Goju-ka or not, then anyone can point me in the right direction, of course I can have my say too, if I choose to, like everybody else.

It's 2 am here and I have my regular sunday Tai Chi tomorrow or rather this morning at 7 am, so good night and good morning.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359195 - 09/29/07 03:51 PM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

My views are based on my observation that the parallels between 5 Ancesters/White Crane are so fundamentally similar on this aspect of training and thus having come from the same root or that a large part of Miyagi's own training seems to have similarities to my own training (I may not have trained in Goju, but I have trained in 5 Ancestors) that I would think that was what Miyagi had in mind; he could only teach the way he was trained.



that Miyagi trained in 5 ancestor is a theory. nobody knows for sure. I'm sure you could also name 10 other styles going on in the area he visited. another theory is that his draw for Tensho came right on Okinawa - namely the influence of Gogenki - who was a White crane teacher and traveled with Miyagi to China together...do you think Gogenki introduced him to 5 Ancestor Fist masters or White Crane masters in China? another student of Gogenki was Matayoshi Shinpo, who was Kimo Wall and Giles Hopkins teacher. Matayoshi's father, Shinko Matayoshi was a good friend of Miyagi. so a strong Crane-based theory could be placed on Tensho when considering those connections. certianly stronger than the theory: "it looks like 5 ancestor and Miyagi visted the general area in China where the style originated."

keep in mind too, that 'Ngo Cho Kun' (5 ancestor kungfu) was relatively new...it had only been conceived just 30 years or less before Miyagi's visit. It's a blending of various CMA's. A mixed martial art of it's time so to speak. It's even more unlikely Higashionna was trained in that brand new art. one of the major reason's Miyagi even went to China in the first place was to seek out his teacher's instructors.


Quote:

Short of interviewing Miyagi no one can be certain of course, but the fact remains Miyagi spent time in Fukien provimce, the home of 5 Ancestors


...and White Crane.

5 ancestor kung fu was conceived in the 1880's. one of the styles it was based on is White Crane.


Quote:

and why no bunkai was passed down from Miyagi on tensho?


Do you train 'In Tin Tat' fist form? if you do, then you can answer your own question.
Miyagi: "Think. you will figure it out."

Another student of Higashionna, Kyoda Jihatsu, reportedly taught 'bunkai' that same way. It was principle-based and the student applied the principle. there wasn't set 'bunkai'. anything with principles can be applied. showing one or training a particular application is just that - training.


Quote:

It would be more useful for these technical discussions and certainly more helpful to other forum members to confine comments on the veracity or otherwise of my views on this aspect of Goju training. If my views are considered wrong by anyone, whether they be Goju-ka or not, then anyone can point me in the right direction, of course I can have my say too, if I choose to, like everybody else.




no need to get defensive, I'm just pointing out my opinions in contrast to yours. If you come across as 'knowing' something you obviously may not - then expect to be called on it. please keep in mind my biases as well - I'm a student of Giles.


From what I've illustrated here, does that help you realize Miyagi may not be 'turning in his grave' ? There are similarities between 5 ancestor fist and goju - but it may may be more likely because they draw from similar sources.


Quote:

It's 2 am here and I have my regular sunday Tai Chi tomorrow or rather this morning at 7 am, so good night and good morning.


enjoy!

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#359196 - 09/30/07 12:35 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Sorry to step on your turf, and I don't say this in any negative way; right from the beginning I did feel some apprehension in commenting in such detail on someone else's system; epecially one as widely practiced as Goju. So to you, Goju players everywhere and of course your Sensei Hopkins, my best wishes in your training which is all that really matters in the end.

Quote:

It's 2 am here and I have my regular sunday Tai Chi tomorrow or rather this morning at 7 am, so good night and good morning.


enjoy!




Thanks, I always do.


Edited by ButterflyPalm (09/30/07 12:48 AM)
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359197 - 09/30/07 01:15 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
This edict function is way too fast for my Tai Chi hands, but I wish to apologise to Sensei Hopkins for my lack of diplomacy in my choice of words.

Thank you.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359198 - 09/30/07 04:24 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Quote:

Would that mean that every time you execute a form it is to it's near perfection and you never slip ???




If by 'perfection' you mean that both the hard/soft, internal/external elements are discernably present and never at any moment leave my body in all the movements of the entire form, then, yes. It has become part of my whole bodily make-up; that's why I say you cannot have any 'in-between', (almost pregnant); either you have got it, or you haven't. If you are not sure whether you have it, then you don't have it, because your body itself will tell you whether you have it or not.

That guy in the 3rd video, though good, I would award 8 out of 10, because in the movement where he thrust out the two spearhands, there was too much tension (especially the fingers) and hence slowed down and affecting his overall smoothness and his intense concentration tells me that he was desperately trying to control his tension which shouldn't be the case at a more advanced level and so his soft/internal part still needs more work; he is still young and so understandable; but he can repeatedly (30 times out of 30) do that form that way each and every time because the required fundamental elements are already in-built in him and he could not do it any other way even if he wanted to, like getting a well-trained opera singer to sing off-key; this may not be a good analogy, but you get the idea.





NO, I meant reaching 10/10. Understanding the principles being applied by listening to your body also makes you realise when you are not reaching 10/10. And having a master indicating the flaws in some techniques makes you more knowladgeable in the details to work on.

If you always reach 10/10, you have made your point but I would not believe you.
At least I and everybody I know have to train to focus for 10/10. And somedays I am better than other days and adapting the techniques to the body at different times in life according to the individual possibilities and undrstanding keeps me training. Up till now I have not yet reached 10/10.
I must admit I am only a moderate practitioner and not a top-practitioner. Like the analogy of the opera singer, you have world-top and less technical gifted. Yet none of them sing off-key.

Interesting to know that 5 ancestor style was developped around 1880 and was based on white crane.
Can all Fukien styles be traced back to monk-fist boxing (Luohan quan) or did some individually develop apart from the Shaolin infuence ?
To my knowledge the styles from Fukkien are monk-fist tiger-fist dog-fist dragon-fist lion-fist white-crane-fist 5-ancestor-fist.
To my understanding, these styles left their mark on the development of karate from the 18th-19th and early 20th century.

Miyagi assembled a curriculum different from the shorin styles. The difference shorin/shorei or shuri/tomari-te and naha-te lie in the kata curriculum. Miyagi (as did others) insisted on creating new kata to enhance teaching karate. I suspect tensho can be viewed in that perspective. That the kata is core in training goju-ryu is without a doubt.


Edited by CVV (09/30/07 04:35 AM)

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#359199 - 09/30/07 07:52 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Sorry to step on your turf, and I don't say this in any negative way; right from the beginning I did feel some apprehension in commenting in such detail on someone else's system...


no need to be so sensitive. I think I liked the conversation better when you were argumentitive. When I first took a look at 5 Ancestor Fist, I was amazed how close some aspects seemed to Goju. almost too coincidental. After looking closer it wasn't clear which came first.

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#359200 - 09/30/07 08:36 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: CVV]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

If you always reach 10/10, you have made your point but I would not believe you.
At least I and everybody I know have to train to focus for 10/10.





I wish you good training then.

As for the historical questions, I think it's best that we leave history to the historians; from your other posts I know you are more knowledgeable in this area, but I am not and it's best that I keep quiet and be thought a fool, rather then open my mouth and confirms it. Perhaps some other forum member can join in on this area of discussion.

Ed,

If I was being sensitive I wouldn't have apologised to your Sensei. As it happened I couldn't get to sleep until almost 5 am, old folks' insomnia, and I missed my Tai Chi session and I hope I was missed; but somehow inspite of that the sun still rose, the neighbour's dog still barked and I dare speculate that it will happen all over again tomorrow.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#359201 - 09/30/07 09:09 AM Re: Sanchin versus Tensho [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I think your real appology should be directed to Victor...for mentioning Santa Claus.


To further the conversation beyond diplomacy and political correctness - the thread was interesting before I butted in.

Taiji and Tensho - If Taiji is sometimes trained fast and with application, is it so strange to see Tensho trained a similar way?

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